Author Topic: Spurs’ Murray and White Available?  (Read 10756 times)

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Re: Spurs’ Murray and White Available?
« Reply #30 on: July 10, 2021, 03:58:13 PM »

Offline Jvalin

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Murray shot 31% from 3 last year 5.4 assists

Smart shot 33%, 5.7 assists

Not really an upgrade.
Except Murray shot half the amount of threes Smart did, shot 5% better from the field, rebounds at double the rate, turns it over less, fouls less and played better defence last year.

Smart's true shooting %age was 54%. Murray's was 51%. TS% takes into account 3s, 2-point shoots, and free throws. (For reference, league average is around 58%.)

They were both pretty bad scoring the ball, but all things considered Murray was worse, and really really bad.

Smart's defense was off last year, and that is a legitimate concern. I do buy that last year was a very bad year for a lot of players, him included, and that he was also hurt a good part of the year. He's been a bulldog for a long time, and I think it's more likely he will be back next year.
Murray would never get 14.5 FGAs here, so I don't think it's particularly concerning. He'd be here for his passing, versatile defence (6'4" with a 6'10" wingspan), dribble penetration and rebounding. I also think that given Murray's mid-range game (47.2% between 16-24 feet) he could really improve in a lesser offensive role.

It would be great to have someone who could drive and dish. We currently have nobody on the team who is able to do so well.

Neither Smart or Pritchard offer that at PG. Fournier, Tatum and Jaylen are all currently secondary ball-handlers / creators rather than primary options.
How is Tatum our secondary shot creator? We run pretty much everything through him in the half court. Obviously, he ain't an elite facilitator, but he can definitely create shots for his teammates.

Personally speaking, I'd want us to start an oversized, pass-first PG who's happy to play off the ball on offense. Don't really care whether he can create his own shot. We already got 4 scoring options in our starting lineup in Tatum, Brown, Fournier and (to a lesser extent due to his age) Horford. In fact, I actually think we'd be better off with a PG who ain't looking to create his own shot. It would do wonders for our ball movement.

The way I see it, none of Smart / Dejounte / White is an ideal fit. They're average shooters, hence they aren't great off-ball options. In any case, Smart fits the bill in my book, cause he's happy to play off the ball and he's literally the perfect fit in our switch-heavy defensive system. He's also a reliable ball handler, an underrated passer (especially in the PnR) and a respectable shooter.

Sorry I wasn't clear.

I meant primary ball-handler / playmaker not primary option as in scorer / shot creator.

None of our team's players are geared to be a primary ball-handler / playmaker. Not Smart or Pritchard at PG. Nor Tatum, Jaylen or Fournier on the wing who are all secondary ball-handler / playmakers.

This team needs a better ball-handler. Someone with plus quickness who can drive into the paint and collapse some defenses. Help create easier shot opportunities for their teammates by pushing the ball, dribble penetration in the halfcourt and dishing.

Our team lacks that. It looks slow and stagnant. Too much happening 20-25 feet from the hoop (outside the defense). Needs someone who can get inside a defense and create from there.
Agree to disagree. Even when Kemba was playing, Tatum was still our primary ball handler in the half court. Only difference is that he wasn't dribbling the ball up the court.

Our go-to move in the half court is Tatum running the high PnR. Given that he has score-first mentality, most of the times he's either attacking the switch or he's shooting an uncontested 3. That said, he can create shots for his teammates as well out of the PnR. Attacking the switch may look like an iso, but it really isn't. It's smart/fundamental basketball: taking advantage of the mismatch. Our whole offense is built around Tatum's ability to put the ball on the floor and run the PnR as a 6'8'' ball handler. Off the top of my head, the only players at 6'8''+ who are better at running the PnR are LeBron and Cade Cunningham.

If you think Dejounte would become our primary ball handler in the half court, imo you underrate Tatum. He'd still be hands down our best shot creator / playmaker (/ name it what you will). This is the #1 reason I couldn't care less whether our future starting PG can create his own shot. I wouldn't want him to be taking the ball away from Tatum in the half court, like Kemba was doing sometimes.


This team needs a better ball-handler. Someone with plus quickness who can drive into the paint and collapse some defenses. Help create easier shot opportunities for their teammates by pushing the ball, dribble penetration in the halfcourt and dishing.
We may not have an elite drive-and-dish player, but we got an elite slasher in Brown. Fwiw, he averaged a career high 3.4 assists per game last season which is nothing to sneeze at for a guy playing mostly off the ball. Hopefully, he'll become a better facilitator going forward. In any case, the C's run a PnR-heavy offense. This is our go-to move for creating shots. It ain't just Tatum. Smart + Fournier (+ Kemba + Hayward when they were here) can run the PnR as well. If you have the right players, PnR is unstoppable. Can't say the same thing about drive and dish. I mean, it's basically a failed attempt for an iso.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2021, 04:20:20 PM by Jvalin »

Re: Spurs’ Murray and White Available?
« Reply #31 on: July 10, 2021, 04:41:04 PM »

Offline Jvalin

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(...) There’s also a lot to be said about general offensive efficiency and tempo. Generally, the faster you play the better your offense is, even in the playoffs. (...)
At the same time, the faster you play, the more points you concede on defense. It ain't rocket science. More possessions = more scoring opportunities for both teams. If you ask me, ''more possessions'' doesn't necessarily equate to ''better offense''. You may score more points, simply because you take more shots. Some of these points will be relatively easy baskets in the open court which will help you boost your efficiency numbers. Problem is, elite teams won't let you run at will come playoff time.

Since you mentioned the Suns, I would argue they are perfectly suited for half-court basketball. They got one of the best floor generals of all time in CP3, a very crafty shot creator in Booker, a traditional big in Ayton and two 3+D (s)wings in Bridges and Crowder.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2021, 05:02:26 PM by Jvalin »

Re: Spurs’ Murray and White Available?
« Reply #32 on: July 10, 2021, 04:50:42 PM »

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Young guards on a decent mid-tier contract. Check.
Played for and were probably coached and trained by our coach. Check.
Current team does not have a roster plan and has a glut of players at that position. Check.

The Spurs ran the offense through Gay and DeRozan. Pop zagged when everyone else zigged with his mid-range offense, and its really not working for them. The team has very, very little inside presence (Seriously, Did you know that Drew Eubanks was their main backup big man?).

The Cs could offer Tristan Thompson as another rotation big man in the same form as Poetl, or you could rope the Lakers into the deal and flip Thompson for a more offensive minded player like Harrell or Kuzma. Depending on that part of the trade, the Cs could flip the Spurs Nesmith to give them more floor spacing and a player that has a different skill set than anyone on their roster.

Cs: Murray
Spurs: Thompson, Nesmith

or

Cs: Murray
Spurs: Harrell, Nesmith
Lakers: Thompson

I like Nesmith, a lot, and would rather not give him up in a trade like this, but we'd have to give something to get something.

Re: Spurs’ Murray and White Available?
« Reply #33 on: July 10, 2021, 04:54:36 PM »

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(...) There’s also a lot to be said about general offensive efficiency and tempo. Generally, the faster you play the better your offense is, even in the playoffs. (...)
At the same time, the faster you play, the more points you concede on defense. It ain't rocket science. More possessions = more scoring opportunities for both teams.

Since you mentioned the Suns, I would argue they are perfectly suited for half-court basketball. They got one of the best floor generals of all time in CP3, a very crafty shot creator in Booker, a traditional big in Ayton and two 3+D (s)wings in Bridges and Crowder.

Kind of, but not necessarily. The Bucks had one of the fastest tempo offenses in league history last year, and they were a top 5 defensive team. It is possible to play fast and get good efficient looks early in the shot clock while also forcing the opposing team to get into their half-court set.

The Suns do have the ability to play in the half court, but they also play fast, which helps get good looks for Bridges, Crowder, Johnson, and their other role players. Again, the ideal is not one or another. The ideal the ability to do both, but lean on a faster pace during the season.

Re: Spurs’ Murray and White Available?
« Reply #34 on: July 10, 2021, 05:29:46 PM »

Offline Jvalin

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(...) There’s also a lot to be said about general offensive efficiency and tempo. Generally, the faster you play the better your offense is, even in the playoffs. (...)
At the same time, the faster you play, the more points you concede on defense. It ain't rocket science. More possessions = more scoring opportunities for both teams.

Since you mentioned the Suns, I would argue they are perfectly suited for half-court basketball. They got one of the best floor generals of all time in CP3, a very crafty shot creator in Booker, a traditional big in Ayton and two 3+D (s)wings in Bridges and Crowder.

Kind of, but not necessarily. The Bucks had one of the fastest tempo offenses in league history last year, and they were a top 5 defensive team. It is possible to play fast and get good efficient looks early in the shot clock while also forcing the opposing team to get into their half-court set.

The Suns do have the ability to play in the half court, but they also play fast, which helps get good looks for Bridges, Crowder, Johnson, and their other role players. Again, the ideal is not one or another. The ideal the ability to do both, but lean on a faster pace during the season.
What happened in the playoffs though? The Bucks were scoring 112.69 points per 100 possessions in the 2019/20 regular season (this is adjusted for strength of opponent's defense). They dropped to 109.7 points per 100 possessions in the playoffs.

Similarly, they recorded an adjusted defensive rating of 103.73 points per 100 possessions during the regular season. They were conceding 108.5 points per 100 possessions during the playoffs.

Fast-paced teams are perfectly suited to dominate in the regular season. The playoffs are a whole different story. Elite teams aren't gonna let you run at will. Don't get me wrong, I totally agree with you that teams should be able to adjust their game depending on their opponents' strengths and weaknesses. That said, running up and down the court is way easier than controling the tempo of the game. The former requires elite athleticism, whereas the latter requires high BBIQ. There are plenty of athletic freaks in the NBA. Unfortunately, there are very few elite floor generals. CP3 is definitely one of them.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2021, 05:52:32 PM by Jvalin »

Re: Spurs’ Murray and White Available?
« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2022, 11:04:42 AM »

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Just reviving this top from last off-season. Looks like they were available and we were able to grab one.

Re: Spurs’ Murray and White Available?
« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2022, 11:17:29 AM »

Offline footey

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Just reviving this top from last off-season. Looks like they were available and we were able to grab one.

Thanks.  I doubt Murray was ever really available for a reasonable price; what we paid for White comparable to what some proposed offering for Murray.

Also interesting that not a single post in this thread proposed trading for White, all centered on Murray.  We love shiny, flashy new toys on CS.

I think White is a great piece to the Celtic puzzle.  Would Murray have complemented the two Jays as well? Dunno.  My gut says that Brad and Ime felt White is the perfect fit, and so far I'd have to agree with them.

Re: Spurs’ Murray and White Available?
« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2022, 11:27:51 AM »

Offline liam

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I still really like Vessell. I think he'll be a really good player.

Re: Spurs’ Murray and White Available?
« Reply #38 on: February 12, 2022, 12:34:56 PM »

Offline gouki88

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Sorry to burst the bubble, but Spurs won’t just give the Celtics Dejounte Murray because of our head coach.

R.C Buford & Pop are going to ask for Brown plain and simple because we don’t have any other significant assets they’d be after. To give up a player at his age, with his potential and on a long term deal, they will want more than dollar value.

On what planet is Murray close to Brown?

I wouldn’t trade Brown for any combination of players on the Spurs roster.  Murray + White + Vassel + Poeltl + Johnson?  Hard pass.

Murray is basically Marcus Smart without the elite defense:

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1=smartma01&p1yrfrom=2021&player_id2=murrade01&p2yrfrom=2021

Very similar in terms of efficiency and passing.
Curious that you don’t use the current season for comparison… maybe because it shows that comparing Murray to Smart is absurd?
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Spurs’ Murray and White Available?
« Reply #39 on: February 12, 2022, 12:38:31 PM »

Offline footey

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Sorry to burst the bubble, but Spurs won’t just give the Celtics Dejounte Murray because of our head coach.

R.C Buford & Pop are going to ask for Brown plain and simple because we don’t have any other significant assets they’d be after. To give up a player at his age, with his potential and on a long term deal, they will want more than dollar value.

On what planet is Murray close to Brown?

I wouldn’t trade Brown for any combination of players on the Spurs roster.  Murray + White + Vassel + Poeltl + Johnson?  Hard pass.

Murray is basically Marcus Smart without the elite defense:

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1=smartma01&p1yrfrom=2021&player_id2=murrade01&p2yrfrom=2021

Very similar in terms of efficiency and passing.
Curious that you don’t use the current season for comparison… maybe because it shows that comparing Murray to Smart is absurd?

How could he before the current season began???

Re: Spurs’ Murray and White Available?
« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2022, 03:03:06 AM »

Offline gouki88

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Sorry to burst the bubble, but Spurs won’t just give the Celtics Dejounte Murray because of our head coach.

R.C Buford & Pop are going to ask for Brown plain and simple because we don’t have any other significant assets they’d be after. To give up a player at his age, with his potential and on a long term deal, they will want more than dollar value.

On what planet is Murray close to Brown?

I wouldn’t trade Brown for any combination of players on the Spurs roster.  Murray + White + Vassel + Poeltl + Johnson?  Hard pass.

Murray is basically Marcus Smart without the elite defense:

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1=smartma01&p1yrfrom=2021&player_id2=murrade01&p2yrfrom=2021

Very similar in terms of efficiency and passing.
Curious that you don’t use the current season for comparison… maybe because it shows that comparing Murray to Smart is absurd?

How could he before the current season began???
LOL. My bad... Maybe I should learn to read first.

'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Spurs’ Murray and White Available?
« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2022, 07:38:16 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

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Dejounte Murray has made a big leap this season in nearly every category, more of a continued progression actually.  The one exception is 3p% (he is 32.0% for the season on 4+ attempts, 32.8% career).  Derrick White has been pretty much what he has been.  I did not see this coming with Murray.  In the off season, they may have been more on par in terms of trade value but not now.

It is interesting to me that perhaps the biggest complaint that you hear is that we need more shooters, specifically more 3pt shooting but then people get excited about Dejounte Murray who has a poor 3p% history.  I don't think 3pt shooting is the end all.  It is certainly nice to have in a player or a collective team.  I would rather have a player like Murray who is good at just about everything else than a player that can shoot the 3 but not much else.

Re: Spurs’ Murray and White Available?
« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2022, 08:56:23 AM »

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Dejounte Murray has made a big leap this season in nearly every category, more of a continued progression actually.  The one exception is 3p% (he is 32.0% for the season on 4+ attempts, 32.8% career).  Derrick White has been pretty much what he has been.  I did not see this coming with Murray.  In the off season, they may have been more on par in terms of trade value but not now.

It is interesting to me that perhaps the biggest complaint that you hear is that we need more shooters, specifically more 3pt shooting but then people get excited about Dejounte Murray who has a poor 3p% history.  I don't think 3pt shooting is the end all.  It is certainly nice to have in a player or a collective team.  I would rather have a player like Murray who is good at just about everything else than a player that can shoot the 3 but not much else.

I'm a little worried that he jumped into a Russell Westbrook-lite playstyle to take that jump in his stats. 52% true shooting percentage is pretty bad. 32% from three, only 3 FT a game, and a lot of mid-range crap. He holds the ball a lot hunting for assists. The one good thing is that he does not turn the ball over a lot.