Worst Team Draft Ever - Wolves 2009?

[slamtheking]

cue up the Danny's-drafting-sucks posters about to complain about James Young and Guershon Yabusele in 3..2..1..

Not those two. But trading up to take Olynyk ahead of Giannis was an all timer.

KO is still a solid NBA player collecting a paycheck so not exactly a whiff by Ainge -- particularly when Giannis was a huge question mark in that draft.  if you're going to ding Danny for that, ding all the other GMs that passed on Giannis.

Same old excuse.

Did any other GMs trade up from the pick behind Giannis to two picks before…. in order to take a player that did not needed to be traded up to get?

When you trade up to take a bench player over a 2-time MVP, that’s a whiff. Sorry.

Giannis's development arch has been so incredible that its really hard to hold any GM accountable for missing on that pick. Set aside the skill development he grew at least 3" and gained probably 50lbs without loosing his athleticism or mobility. KO is a 10pt 5rb solid NBA player and was absolutely worth of being drafted in the lottery.

Part of being an NBA GM is scouting and evaluating both ceiling and floor of young men in the draft. Risk v. reward. This was arguably Ainge's worst skill as GM of the Cs. It's a simple fact many here simply don't care to admit.

yeah, because he whiffed on Brown and Tatum 

Brown was anything but the consensus pick at 3 and trading out of the #1 spot to get the best player in the draft were absolutely demonstrations that Ainge couldn't evaluate talent in the draft.  Easy to Monday Morning Quarterback years after a draft to say who should have been taken.  feel free to produce your posts from that draft showing Giannis was the pick to make.

not saying KO was the player I thought was worth moving up 2 spots for but proclaiming Giannis an obvious miss is a real stretch.

[CFAN38]

cue up the Danny's-drafting-sucks posters about to complain about James Young and Guershon Yabusele in 3..2..1..

Not those two. But trading up to take Olynyk ahead of Giannis was an all timer.

KO is still a solid NBA player collecting a paycheck so not exactly a whiff by Ainge -- particularly when Giannis was a huge question mark in that draft.  if you're going to ding Danny for that, ding all the other GMs that passed on Giannis.

Same old excuse.

Did any other GMs trade up from the pick behind Giannis to two picks before…. in order to take a player that did not needed to be traded up to get?

When you trade up to take a bench player over a 2-time MVP, that’s a whiff. Sorry.

Giannis's development arch has been so incredible that its really hard to hold any GM accountable for missing on that pick. Set aside the skill development he grew at least 3" and gained probably 50lbs without loosing his athleticism or mobility. KO is a 10pt 5rb solid NBA player and was absolutely worth of being drafted in the lottery.

Part of being an NBA GM is scouting and evaluating both ceiling and floor of young men in the draft. Risk v. reward. This was arguably Ainge's worst skill as GM of the Cs. It's a simple fact many here simply don't care to admit.

I agree a major part of the draft is juggling the risk/reward of prospects. When you honestly look back at drafts the highest ceiling physical outliers are typically the draft busts. Giannis deserves a lot of credit for his incredible work ethic to match his genetic gifts. As a GM it has to be extremely hard to cell an ownership group on the development of an extremely raw prospect playing in a low level foreign league. Giannis wasn’t KG who teams at least had opportunities to see play vs high level competition.

Its easy to say in hindsight teams should have targeted high ceiling prospects but truth is that most of the league is built on relatively safe picks 

[Ed Monix]

So I was listening to the radio today and they were talking about poor draft decisions and they were talking about the Timberwolves in 2009 missing on Curry not once but twice and started wondering out loud if that was the worst draft decision in history because they missed on the player twice.

For some background in 2009, Minnesota had the 5th and 6th pick in the draft.  They drafted Rubio at 5 (ok pick) and then Jonny Flynn at 6 (terrible pick).  Curry went 7th.  So Minnesota passed on him on consecutive picks and the Warriors took him and the rest as they say is history. 

The reasoning was such that, everybody misses on players (I mean Hasheem Thabeet went 2 in that same draft while Harden went 3), but the fact that they had 2 picks directly preceeding the pick that landed Curry put that on a whole other scale of draft blunders and misses. 

Because of where the picks they owned and the player were drafted, they put that on a whole different scale then even say the Sixers in 2013 who with 6 and 11 took Noel and MCW (while Giannis went 15) or those drafts were someone like Jokic goes in the 2nd round and a bunch of teams passed on him several times.

There have been bigger busts than Flynn and certainly better players than Rubio at 5, but with Curry going 7 is that the worst draft a team has had or can you think of others where a team blundered so badly.

While the Timberwolves have always been a weak franchise, I wouldn’t say these things are cut and dry.

Firstly because of having a cheap team owner, the Wolves front office staff would have next to no resources in comparison to the richer teams.

Secondly people always forget that in a lot of bad drafting decisions, it’s actually caused by an owner that meddles with team affairs (Vivek Ranadive is notorious for this).

Thirdly, because the Timberwolves (and Grizzlies) had a reputation as a poor franchise, guys like Steph Curry refused to workout for them, give them medical information…essentially saying don’t draft me because I don’t want to be there.

Finally it’s easy to retroactively look at decisions and pass judgment but even something like passing on Curry could alternatively been a good decision. Curry always had bad ankles, it’s the reason GSW could afford Durant because Curry signed a cheap second contract. There’s a chance Steph’s ankles never get fixed and he’s out of the league early or just a shooting role player. Alternatively, Jonny Flynn was actually a great rookie but had a hip operation in his second season and was never the same player.

[Birdman]

Heck every teams makes bad picks every year..look at Giannis dropping to 15, Darko at #2, and so on

[todd_days_41]

cue up the Danny's-drafting-sucks posters about to complain about James Young and Guershon Yabusele in 3..2..1..

Not those two. But trading up to take Olynyk ahead of Giannis was an all timer.

KO is still a solid NBA player collecting a paycheck so not exactly a whiff by Ainge -- particularly when Giannis was a huge question mark in that draft.  if you're going to ding Danny for that, ding all the other GMs that passed on Giannis.

Same old excuse.

Did any other GMs trade up from the pick behind Giannis to two picks before…. in order to take a player that did not needed to be traded up to get?

When you trade up to take a bench player over a 2-time MVP, that’s a whiff. Sorry.

Giannis's development arch has been so incredible that its really hard to hold any GM accountable for missing on that pick. Set aside the skill development he grew at least 3" and gained probably 50lbs without loosing his athleticism or mobility. KO is a 10pt 5rb solid NBA player and was absolutely worth of being drafted in the lottery.

Part of being an NBA GM is scouting and evaluating both ceiling and floor of young men in the draft. Risk v. reward. This was arguably Ainge's worst skill as GM of the Cs. It's a simple fact many here simply don't care to admit.

yeah, because he whiffed on Brown and Tatum 

Brown was anything but the consensus pick at 3 and trading out of the #1 spot to get the best player in the draft were absolutely demonstrations that Ainge couldn't evaluate talent in the draft.  Easy to Monday Morning Quarterback years after a draft to say who should have been taken.  feel free to produce your posts from that draft showing Giannis was the pick to make.

not saying KO was the player I thought was worth moving up 2 spots for but proclaiming Giannis an obvious miss is a real stretch.

This is literally the lock stock argument of every Celtics fan who defends Ainge as a drafter -- eye roll and all. It's such homerism.

They were indeed excellent picks. They were the only two picks Ainge made in the Top 5, if i'm not mistaken. Brown was a gutsy pick, and Ainge made a great trade to get the guy he wanted in Tatum. That's Ainge at his best, one of the best transactional GMs ever.

In the draft? His record outside the Top 5 -- and indeed those two players -- is mediocre. 50-ish picks, one All-Star (who he had to dump in his prime due to poor attitude and fatal flaws), tons of full scale busts. When he took "upside" players, he missed. When he took "safe" players, he often missed guys who actually HAD upside.

And I never called Giannis an "obvious" miss. As stated, a dozen other teams also missed. But it was a franchise altering miss, nonetheless. Ask Milwaukee -- one of the best drafting teams in the NBA in recent times -- they won a championship last year (as a small, undesirable market team, no less) while we sucked. And Ainge traded right past the guy who led them there. So he could be sure he got Kelly ******* Olynyk. Ouch.

By the way, here are the 12 other teams who missed on Giannis: Cleveland, Orlando, Minnesota, Washington, Charlotte, Phoenix, New Orleans, Portland, Philadelphia, OKC, Detroit and Sacramento. When you keep company with those orgs in the draft, you aren't doing very well.

 

 

[GreenlyGreeny]

Still going with Portland choosing Bowie over Jordan in ‘84. Close second for Minny in ‘09, though.

[todd_days_41]

Still going with Portland choosing Bowie over Jordan in ‘84.

Yes, this came to mind for me as well.

[mr. dee]

cue up the Danny's-drafting-sucks posters about to complain about James Young and Guershon Yabusele in 3..2..1..

Not those two. But trading up to take Olynyk ahead of Giannis was an all timer.

KO is still a solid NBA player collecting a paycheck so not exactly a whiff by Ainge -- particularly when Giannis was a huge question mark in that draft.  if you're going to ding Danny for that, ding all the other GMs that passed on Giannis.

Same old excuse.

Did any other GMs trade up from the pick behind Giannis to two picks before…. in order to take a player that did not needed to be traded up to get?

When you trade up to take a bench player over a 2-time MVP, that’s a whiff. Sorry.

Giannis's development arch has been so incredible that its really hard to hold any GM accountable for missing on that pick. Set aside the skill development he grew at least 3" and gained probably 50lbs without loosing his athleticism or mobility. KO is a 10pt 5rb solid NBA player and was absolutely worth of being drafted in the lottery.

Part of being an NBA GM is scouting and evaluating both ceiling and floor of young men in the draft. Risk v. reward. This was arguably Ainge's worst skill as GM of the Cs. It's a simple fact many here simply don't care to admit.

yeah, because he whiffed on Brown and Tatum 

Brown was anything but the consensus pick at 3 and trading out of the #1 spot to get the best player in the draft were absolutely demonstrations that Ainge couldn't evaluate talent in the draft.  Easy to Monday Morning Quarterback years after a draft to say who should have been taken.  feel free to produce your posts from that draft showing Giannis was the pick to make.

not saying KO was the player I thought was worth moving up 2 spots for but proclaiming Giannis an obvious miss is a real stretch.

This is literally the lock stock argument of every Celtics fan who defends Ainge as a drafter -- eye roll and all. It's such homerism.

They were indeed excellent picks. They were the only two picks Ainge made in the Top 5, if i'm not mistaken. Brown was a gutsy pick, and Ainge made a great trade to get the guy he wanted in Tatum. That's Ainge at his best, one of the best transactional GMs ever.

In the draft? His record outside the Top 5 -- and indeed those two players -- is mediocre. 50-ish picks, one All-Star (who he had to dump in his prime due to poor attitude and fatal flaws), tons of full scale busts. When he took "upside" players, he missed. When he took "safe" players, he often missed guys who actually HAD upside.

And I never called Giannis an "obvious" miss. As stated, a dozen other teams also missed. But it was a franchise altering miss, nonetheless. Ask Milwaukee -- one of the best drafting teams in the NBA in recent times -- they won a championship last year (as a small, undesirable market team, no less) while we sucked. And Ainge traded right past the guy who led them there. So he could be sure he got Kelly ******* Olynyk. Ouch.

By the way, here are the 12 other teams who missed on Giannis: Cleveland, Orlando, Minnesota, Washington, Charlotte, Phoenix, New Orleans, Portland, Philadelphia, OKC, Detroit and Sacramento. When you keep company with those orgs in the draft, you aren't doing very well.

Eh... This line is questionable. Bucks won by signing quality free agents and trades that pushed them on another gear. It's easy to revision how Bucks whiffed plenty of draft picks including our own Jabari Parker.

Brandon Jennings (2009) - Drafted ahead of Jeff Teague and Jrue Holiday. Sent to Detroit after his rookie contract expired
Larry Sanders (2010) - Solid player with alot of baggage. Been out of the league since 2017
John Henson (2012) - Career backup at best. Even Olynyk had better production than this guy
Jabari Parker (2014) - A supposedly can't miss prospect now scraping for NBA spot due to injuries
Rashaud Vaughn (2015) - Another wasted pick by the Bucks. Already out of the league in year 3
Thon Maker (2016) - Another hyped up prospect that couldn't live up to the hype. Struggling to get minutes even on a lottery team

Compare it to the picks Danny took that people overlook.

Avery Bradley (2010) - 2X All Defensive Team
Etwaun Moore (2011) - Solid rotational player
Jared Sullinger (2012) - Short career but a solid one
Kelly Olynyk (2013) - Averaged 19 PPG with the Rockets last season
Marcus Smart (2014) - 2X All Defensive Team and counting. Still playing for the team
Terry Rozier (2015) - Has been borderline All-Star for the Hornets
Jaylen Brown (2016) - All-Star
Jayson Tatum (2017) - 2X All-Star, All-NBA
Robert Williams (2018) - Still on the team and a legit contender for a Defensive Team
Romeo Langford (2019) - Turned into a solid defender and spot up shooter
Grant Williams (2019) - Our best shooter on the team currently

[todd_days_41]

cue up the Danny's-drafting-sucks posters about to complain about James Young and Guershon Yabusele in 3..2..1..

Not those two. But trading up to take Olynyk ahead of Giannis was an all timer.

KO is still a solid NBA player collecting a paycheck so not exactly a whiff by Ainge -- particularly when Giannis was a huge question mark in that draft.  if you're going to ding Danny for that, ding all the other GMs that passed on Giannis.

Same old excuse.

Did any other GMs trade up from the pick behind Giannis to two picks before…. in order to take a player that did not needed to be traded up to get?

When you trade up to take a bench player over a 2-time MVP, that’s a whiff. Sorry.

Giannis's development arch has been so incredible that its really hard to hold any GM accountable for missing on that pick. Set aside the skill development he grew at least 3" and gained probably 50lbs without loosing his athleticism or mobility. KO is a 10pt 5rb solid NBA player and was absolutely worth of being drafted in the lottery.

Part of being an NBA GM is scouting and evaluating both ceiling and floor of young men in the draft. Risk v. reward. This was arguably Ainge's worst skill as GM of the Cs. It's a simple fact many here simply don't care to admit.

yeah, because he whiffed on Brown and Tatum 

Brown was anything but the consensus pick at 3 and trading out of the #1 spot to get the best player in the draft were absolutely demonstrations that Ainge couldn't evaluate talent in the draft.  Easy to Monday Morning Quarterback years after a draft to say who should have been taken.  feel free to produce your posts from that draft showing Giannis was the pick to make.

not saying KO was the player I thought was worth moving up 2 spots for but proclaiming Giannis an obvious miss is a real stretch.

This is literally the lock stock argument of every Celtics fan who defends Ainge as a drafter -- eye roll and all. It's such homerism.

They were indeed excellent picks. They were the only two picks Ainge made in the Top 5, if i'm not mistaken. Brown was a gutsy pick, and Ainge made a great trade to get the guy he wanted in Tatum. That's Ainge at his best, one of the best transactional GMs ever.

In the draft? His record outside the Top 5 -- and indeed those two players -- is mediocre. 50-ish picks, one All-Star (who he had to dump in his prime due to poor attitude and fatal flaws), tons of full scale busts. When he took "upside" players, he missed. When he took "safe" players, he often missed guys who actually HAD upside.

And I never called Giannis an "obvious" miss. As stated, a dozen other teams also missed. But it was a franchise altering miss, nonetheless. Ask Milwaukee -- one of the best drafting teams in the NBA in recent times -- they won a championship last year (as a small, undesirable market team, no less) while we sucked. And Ainge traded right past the guy who led them there. So he could be sure he got Kelly ******* Olynyk. Ouch.

By the way, here are the 12 other teams who missed on Giannis: Cleveland, Orlando, Minnesota, Washington, Charlotte, Phoenix, New Orleans, Portland, Philadelphia, OKC, Detroit and Sacramento. When you keep company with those orgs in the draft, you aren't doing very well.

Eh... This line is questionable. Bucks won by signing quality free agents and trades that pushed them on another gear. It's easy to revision how Bucks whiffed plenty of draft picks including our own Jabari Parker.

Brandon Jennings (2009) - Drafted ahead of Jeff Teague and Jrue Holiday. Sent to Detroit after his rookie contract expired
Larry Sanders (2010) - Solid player with alot of baggage. Been out of the league since 2017
John Henson (2012) - Career backup at best. Even Olynyk had better production than this guy
Jabari Parker (2014) - A supposedly can't miss prospect now scraping for NBA spot due to injuries
Rashaud Vaughn (2015) - Another wasted pick by the Bucks. Already out of the league in year 3
Thon Maker (2016) - Another hyped up prospect that couldn't live up to the hype. Struggling to get minutes even on a lottery team

Compare it to the picks Danny took that people overlook.

Avery Bradley (2010) - 2X All Defensive Team
Etwaun Moore (2011) - Solid rotational player
Jared Sullinger (2012) - Short career but a solid one
Kelly Olynyk (2013) - Averaged 19 PPG with the Rockets last season
Marcus Smart (2014) - 2X All Defensive Team and counting. Still playing for the team
Terry Rozier (2015) - Has been borderline All-Star for the Hornets
Jaylen Brown (2016) - All-Star
Jayson Tatum (2017) - 2X All-Star, All-NBA
Robert Williams (2018) - Still on the team and a legit contender for a Defensive Team
Romeo Langford (2019) - Turned into a solid defender and spot up shooter
Grant Williams (2019) - Our best shooter on the team currently

MIL’s two best players are ones they drafted — one at 15, one at 39.  Without those picks, they’re nothing.

Meanwhile, you’re questioning some good picks they made (Brandon Jennings? Larry Sanders? Cmon now), and not providing context to others. I’m obviously not suggesting MIL hit a grand slam on every pick they’ve made in the last 20 years. No team does. The Bucks have a highly respected draft record.

Ainge made his share of good picks, of course. I don’t agree that all you list are good, but yes guys like Bradley, Rozier, and Timelord come to mind. But calling Langford, Sullinger, and even Smart (depending on your view of him) examples of “good” is a reach.

[hpantazo]

The Sixers trading up to take Fultz over Tatum is up there in terms of worst drafts.

So is Portland taking Sam Bowie over Michael Jordan, Charles Barkley, and John Stockton in 1984. Sure teams strike out sometimes, but striking out by missing on one of the all-time greatest players as well as two more HOFs is pretty awful.

[slamtheking]

cue up the Danny's-drafting-sucks posters about to complain about James Young and Guershon Yabusele in 3..2..1..

Not those two. But trading up to take Olynyk ahead of Giannis was an all timer.

KO is still a solid NBA player collecting a paycheck so not exactly a whiff by Ainge -- particularly when Giannis was a huge question mark in that draft.  if you're going to ding Danny for that, ding all the other GMs that passed on Giannis.

Same old excuse.

Did any other GMs trade up from the pick behind Giannis to two picks before…. in order to take a player that did not needed to be traded up to get?

When you trade up to take a bench player over a 2-time MVP, that’s a whiff. Sorry.

Giannis's development arch has been so incredible that its really hard to hold any GM accountable for missing on that pick. Set aside the skill development he grew at least 3" and gained probably 50lbs without loosing his athleticism or mobility. KO is a 10pt 5rb solid NBA player and was absolutely worth of being drafted in the lottery.

Part of being an NBA GM is scouting and evaluating both ceiling and floor of young men in the draft. Risk v. reward. This was arguably Ainge's worst skill as GM of the Cs. It's a simple fact many here simply don't care to admit.

yeah, because he whiffed on Brown and Tatum 

Brown was anything but the consensus pick at 3 and trading out of the #1 spot to get the best player in the draft were absolutely demonstrations that Ainge couldn't evaluate talent in the draft.  Easy to Monday Morning Quarterback years after a draft to say who should have been taken.  feel free to produce your posts from that draft showing Giannis was the pick to make.

not saying KO was the player I thought was worth moving up 2 spots for but proclaiming Giannis an obvious miss is a real stretch.

This is literally the lock stock argument of every Celtics fan who defends Ainge as a drafter -- eye roll and all. It's such homerism.

They were indeed excellent picks. They were the only two picks Ainge made in the Top 5, if i'm not mistaken. Brown was a gutsy pick, and Ainge made a great trade to get the guy he wanted in Tatum. That's Ainge at his best, one of the best transactional GMs ever.

In the draft? His record outside the Top 5 -- and indeed those two players -- is mediocre. 50-ish picks, one All-Star (who he had to dump in his prime due to poor attitude and fatal flaws), tons of full scale busts. When he took "upside" players, he missed. When he took "safe" players, he often missed guys who actually HAD upside.

And I never called Giannis an "obvious" miss. As stated, a dozen other teams also missed. But it was a franchise altering miss, nonetheless. Ask Milwaukee -- one of the best drafting teams in the NBA in recent times -- they won a championship last year (as a small, undesirable market team, no less) while we sucked. And Ainge traded right past the guy who led them there. So he could be sure he got Kelly ******* Olynyk. Ouch.

By the way, here are the 12 other teams who missed on Giannis: Cleveland, Orlando, Minnesota, Washington, Charlotte, Phoenix, New Orleans, Portland, Philadelphia, OKC, Detroit and Sacramento. When you keep company with those orgs in the draft, you aren't doing very well.

specify your "tons of full scale busts".  you'll come up far short.  let me list Danny's picks for you:
2003: Troy Bell and Dahntay Jones flipped for Kendrick Perkins (27) and Marcus Banks (13) -- so essentially drafted Perk and Banks.  Banks had a moderate career but there's no disputing Perk was an excellent pick. Brandon Hunter taken in second round - not horrible as second rounders go.
2004: Al Jefferson(15), Delonte West (24), Tony Allen (25), Justin Reed (40).  3 terrific picks in the first round.  a decent second rounder that just didn't develop.  Big Al was the key piece in the Garnett deal.
2005:Gerald Green (19), Ryan Gomes (50), Orien Greene (53).  Green was a highly regarded prospect that dropped.  didn't pan out but was able to develop and get back into the league as a solid role player for a number of years.  not an overall bust but didn't help the C's while here but was a key piece in the Garnett deal.  Gomes was an excellent pick in the second.  Greene had his moments as a late second rounder.
2006: Randy Foye (7) who was shipped out immediately for Sebastian Telfair and Leon Powe (49)  no real grade here but Telfair was a key piece in the Garnett deal.  Powe was a key piece in the title in 2008.
2007: Jeff Green (5), Gabe Pruitt (32) and Big Baby Davis.  Green was the key piece in the Ray Allen deal.  Pruitt just never put it together but he is a second round pick.  BBD was a key player in that title drive.
2008: JR Giddens (30) and Semih Erden (60).  Giddens stunk - first player that could be labelled a first round bust in Danny's first 6 years of drafting.  That's ignoring the fact that the 30th pick in the draft rarely pans out.  Erden was actually serviceable for a while.  that's pretty good for the last pick in the draft.
2009:Lester Hudson (58).  Lester had a few moments as a late second rounder.
2010: Avery Bradley (19) and Luke Harangody (52).  Avery was a terrific pick up at 19.  Luke didn't do much but again, late second round pick.
2011: Marshon Brooks (25) and E'Twuan Moore (55).  Brooks was flipped on draft night for JJJ (27).  JJJ was a bust.  kid had the tools but not the drive to succeed.  of course, that's ignoring the fact that the 27th pick in the draft usually doesn't pan out.  Moore is still playing in the NBA so pretty solid pick by Ainge that late in the draft.
2012: Jared Sullinger (21) and Fab Melo (22).  Sully was a really good player - when he could stay in shape.  very solid pick talent-wise.  Fab had bust written all over him and is probably the player that still holds the record for the highest percentage of posters here predicting he'd be a bust.
2013: Lucas Nogueira (16).  Flipped for Kelly Olynyk at 13.  KO's a very solid NBA player.  His 'problem' is that he'll always be known as the player that Danny took instead of Giannis because in their minds "Danny should have known how great Giannis would be". 
2014: Marcus Smart (6) and James Young (17).  Smart is the heart of the team.  would still take him over the other players people were crying for -- Randle being the primary one -- because unlike those other players, Smart plays hard every game and makes plays no one else in the league makes.  frustrating at times but he doesn't quit.  Young - bust pure and simple.
2015: Terry Rozier (16), RJ Hunter (28), Jordan Mickey (33) and Marcus Thornton (45).  Rozier is still a terrific player.  Hunter was a bust -- again ignoring how rare a 28th pick pans out.  Mickey didn't live up to the hype spewed by local draftnik Triboy.  Thornton did nothing.
2016: Jaylen Brown (3), Guerson Yabusele (16), Anton Zizic (23), Deyonta Davis (31), Rade Zagorac (35), Demetrius Jackson (45), Ben Bentil (51) and Abdel Nader (58).  Brown - I'd take him at #1 in a redraft.  after that, this draft become less about the draft picks made in terms of team contribution and much more about Danny's complete meltdown in managing these assets going into the draft.  having 8 picks and having to blow 2 of them on draft-and-stash players in the first round instead of using them on players that were better prospects.   Davis flipped in a deal to Memphis which essentially wasted the pick.  the other second rounders did nothing although Nader is still kicking around the league.  Bentil was a disappointment considering his career at PC admittedly.  Better asset management that could have resulted in picks made for talent instead of not needing a roster spot could have netted Caris Levert instead of Yabu AND Pascal Siakam or Dejounte Murray instead of Zizic AND Ivica Zubac instead of a traded Deyonta Davis And Malcolm Brogdon instead of Zagorac.  Again, taking a moment to look at what Danny did in this draft there's no way to see this as poor player evaluation but rather extremely poor asset management.  better roster and draft pick management and this team would be a contender with the talent they could have snagged in just this draft.
2017: Jayson Tatum (3), Semi Ojeleye (37), Kadeem Allen (53), Jabari Bird (56).  Tatum was the result of flipping #1 for #3 and a future first.  brilliant move by Danny.  Tatum is the jewel of that draft.  Semi is a very solid NBA player taken in the second round.  Allen and Bird didn't do much as late second rounders
2018: Robert Williams (27).  pure stud taken at 27. 
2019: Romeo Langford (14), Marcus Thybulle (20) Grant Williams (22), Carsen Edwards (33), Tremont Waters (53).  Romeo's showing he's a solid player.  top notch defender, good 3-pt shot and the ability to drive to the hoop.  Grant had a good rookie year, sophomore slump but in year 3 is looking like our best bench player.   Thybulle shipped out to Philly to get Edwards and another asset. Edwards and Waters just couldn't get it done.  Thybulle deal looks like a bad one since they saved a roster spot for Edwards who never panned out yet Thybulle is looking like Smart but with a worse shot.
2020: Aaron Nesmith (14), Payton Pritchard (26), Desmond Bane (30), Yam Madar (47).  Nesmith and Pritchard looked promising last year and seem to be going through a sophomore slump.  Bane was traded due to yet another season of Danny mismanaging draft assets.  Madar is also a product of that mismanagement since he was drafted as a draft-and-stash.

so, looking back on all those years of drafting, Danny's record is actually pretty [dang] good.  the only ones that would be considered busts (justly or not) are: Giddens, JJJ, Fab Melo, James Young, RJ Hunter.   Of those, only Young was taken higher than 22 and that's still at 17 which is not a slot where a guaranteed homerun will be found.
Yabu, Zizic and Bane all picks wasted due to poor asset management and not due to poor talent evaluation as proposed.  so take you condescending "lock stock argument of every Celtics fan who defends Ainge as a drafter -" and stick it.  I'd tell you to produce some actual meat to your argument but with all Ainge's draft picks laid out for all to see, there's nothing to back up your viewpoint.

[mr. dee]

cue up the Danny's-drafting-sucks posters about to complain about James Young and Guershon Yabusele in 3..2..1..

Not those two. But trading up to take Olynyk ahead of Giannis was an all timer.

KO is still a solid NBA player collecting a paycheck so not exactly a whiff by Ainge -- particularly when Giannis was a huge question mark in that draft.  if you're going to ding Danny for that, ding all the other GMs that passed on Giannis.

Same old excuse.

Did any other GMs trade up from the pick behind Giannis to two picks before…. in order to take a player that did not needed to be traded up to get?

When you trade up to take a bench player over a 2-time MVP, that’s a whiff. Sorry.

Giannis's development arch has been so incredible that its really hard to hold any GM accountable for missing on that pick. Set aside the skill development he grew at least 3" and gained probably 50lbs without loosing his athleticism or mobility. KO is a 10pt 5rb solid NBA player and was absolutely worth of being drafted in the lottery.

Part of being an NBA GM is scouting and evaluating both ceiling and floor of young men in the draft. Risk v. reward. This was arguably Ainge's worst skill as GM of the Cs. It's a simple fact many here simply don't care to admit.

yeah, because he whiffed on Brown and Tatum 

Brown was anything but the consensus pick at 3 and trading out of the #1 spot to get the best player in the draft were absolutely demonstrations that Ainge couldn't evaluate talent in the draft.  Easy to Monday Morning Quarterback years after a draft to say who should have been taken.  feel free to produce your posts from that draft showing Giannis was the pick to make.

not saying KO was the player I thought was worth moving up 2 spots for but proclaiming Giannis an obvious miss is a real stretch.

This is literally the lock stock argument of every Celtics fan who defends Ainge as a drafter -- eye roll and all. It's such homerism.

They were indeed excellent picks. They were the only two picks Ainge made in the Top 5, if i'm not mistaken. Brown was a gutsy pick, and Ainge made a great trade to get the guy he wanted in Tatum. That's Ainge at his best, one of the best transactional GMs ever.

In the draft? His record outside the Top 5 -- and indeed those two players -- is mediocre. 50-ish picks, one All-Star (who he had to dump in his prime due to poor attitude and fatal flaws), tons of full scale busts. When he took "upside" players, he missed. When he took "safe" players, he often missed guys who actually HAD upside.

And I never called Giannis an "obvious" miss. As stated, a dozen other teams also missed. But it was a franchise altering miss, nonetheless. Ask Milwaukee -- one of the best drafting teams in the NBA in recent times -- they won a championship last year (as a small, undesirable market team, no less) while we sucked. And Ainge traded right past the guy who led them there. So he could be sure he got Kelly ******* Olynyk. Ouch.

By the way, here are the 12 other teams who missed on Giannis: Cleveland, Orlando, Minnesota, Washington, Charlotte, Phoenix, New Orleans, Portland, Philadelphia, OKC, Detroit and Sacramento. When you keep company with those orgs in the draft, you aren't doing very well.

Eh... This line is questionable. Bucks won by signing quality free agents and trades that pushed them on another gear. It's easy to revision how Bucks whiffed plenty of draft picks including our own Jabari Parker.

Brandon Jennings (2009) - Drafted ahead of Jeff Teague and Jrue Holiday. Sent to Detroit after his rookie contract expired
Larry Sanders (2010) - Solid player with alot of baggage. Been out of the league since 2017
John Henson (2012) - Career backup at best. Even Olynyk had better production than this guy
Jabari Parker (2014) - A supposedly can't miss prospect now scraping for NBA spot due to injuries
Rashaud Vaughn (2015) - Another wasted pick by the Bucks. Already out of the league in year 3
Thon Maker (2016) - Another hyped up prospect that couldn't live up to the hype. Struggling to get minutes even on a lottery team

Compare it to the picks Danny took that people overlook.

Avery Bradley (2010) - 2X All Defensive Team
Etwaun Moore (2011) - Solid rotational player
Jared Sullinger (2012) - Short career but a solid one
Kelly Olynyk (2013) - Averaged 19 PPG with the Rockets last season
Marcus Smart (2014) - 2X All Defensive Team and counting. Still playing for the team
Terry Rozier (2015) - Has been borderline All-Star for the Hornets
Jaylen Brown (2016) - All-Star
Jayson Tatum (2017) - 2X All-Star, All-NBA
Robert Williams (2018) - Still on the team and a legit contender for a Defensive Team
Romeo Langford (2019) - Turned into a solid defender and spot up shooter
Grant Williams (2019) - Our best shooter on the team currently

MIL’s two best players are ones they drafted — one at 15, one at 39.  Without those picks, they’re nothing.

Meanwhile, you’re questioning some good picks they made (Brandon Jennings? Larry Sanders? Cmon now), and not providing context to others. I’m obviously not suggesting MIL hit a grand slam on every pick they’ve made in the last 20 years. No team does. The Bucks have a highly respected draft record.

Ainge made his share of good picks, of course. I don’t agree that all you list are good, but yes guys like Bradley, Rozier, and Timelord come to mind. But calling Langford, Sullinger, and even Smart (depending on your view of him) examples of “good” is a reach.

Smart being good is not even a debate, its a fact. Celtics have yet to miss a post-season since he was drafted. And he's the defensive anchor on this team. Even if you don't consider him good this season, his impact on the last several years is too huge to ignore. 2X Defensive Team is good enough to justify him as "good"

Sullinger averaged 11/8 during his Celtic stint, a pretty good number for a role player on a playoff team. As for Langford, he is now averaging 39% from 3 as well as being a very good defensive player. Maybe you shouldn't confuse all-star as a sole basis for being good.

Middleton isn't even drafted by the Bucks. He came from the Pistons as a throw-in trade for Brandon Jennings and spent his early years in G-League. Since we're going on that direction, let's give Danny credit for acquiring and developing IT.

[todd_days_41]

cue up the Danny's-drafting-sucks posters about to complain about James Young and Guershon Yabusele in 3..2..1..

Not those two. But trading up to take Olynyk ahead of Giannis was an all timer.

KO is still a solid NBA player collecting a paycheck so not exactly a whiff by Ainge -- particularly when Giannis was a huge question mark in that draft.  if you're going to ding Danny for that, ding all the other GMs that passed on Giannis.

Same old excuse.

Did any other GMs trade up from the pick behind Giannis to two picks before…. in order to take a player that did not needed to be traded up to get?

When you trade up to take a bench player over a 2-time MVP, that’s a whiff. Sorry.

Giannis's development arch has been so incredible that its really hard to hold any GM accountable for missing on that pick. Set aside the skill development he grew at least 3" and gained probably 50lbs without loosing his athleticism or mobility. KO is a 10pt 5rb solid NBA player and was absolutely worth of being drafted in the lottery.

Part of being an NBA GM is scouting and evaluating both ceiling and floor of young men in the draft. Risk v. reward. This was arguably Ainge's worst skill as GM of the Cs. It's a simple fact many here simply don't care to admit.

yeah, because he whiffed on Brown and Tatum 

Brown was anything but the consensus pick at 3 and trading out of the #1 spot to get the best player in the draft were absolutely demonstrations that Ainge couldn't evaluate talent in the draft.  Easy to Monday Morning Quarterback years after a draft to say who should have been taken.  feel free to produce your posts from that draft showing Giannis was the pick to make.

not saying KO was the player I thought was worth moving up 2 spots for but proclaiming Giannis an obvious miss is a real stretch.

This is literally the lock stock argument of every Celtics fan who defends Ainge as a drafter -- eye roll and all. It's such homerism.

They were indeed excellent picks. They were the only two picks Ainge made in the Top 5, if i'm not mistaken. Brown was a gutsy pick, and Ainge made a great trade to get the guy he wanted in Tatum. That's Ainge at his best, one of the best transactional GMs ever.

In the draft? His record outside the Top 5 -- and indeed those two players -- is mediocre. 50-ish picks, one All-Star (who he had to dump in his prime due to poor attitude and fatal flaws), tons of full scale busts. When he took "upside" players, he missed. When he took "safe" players, he often missed guys who actually HAD upside.

And I never called Giannis an "obvious" miss. As stated, a dozen other teams also missed. But it was a franchise altering miss, nonetheless. Ask Milwaukee -- one of the best drafting teams in the NBA in recent times -- they won a championship last year (as a small, undesirable market team, no less) while we sucked. And Ainge traded right past the guy who led them there. So he could be sure he got Kelly ******* Olynyk. Ouch.

By the way, here are the 12 other teams who missed on Giannis: Cleveland, Orlando, Minnesota, Washington, Charlotte, Phoenix, New Orleans, Portland, Philadelphia, OKC, Detroit and Sacramento. When you keep company with those orgs in the draft, you aren't doing very well.

specify your "tons of full scale busts".  you'll come up far short.  let me list Danny's picks for you:
2003: Troy Bell and Dahntay Jones flipped for Kendrick Perkins (27) and Marcus Banks (13) -- so essentially drafted Perk and Banks.  Banks had a moderate career but there's no disputing Perk was an excellent pick. Brandon Hunter taken in second round - not horrible as second rounders go.
2004: Al Jefferson(15), Delonte West (24), Tony Allen (25), Justin Reed (40).  3 terrific picks in the first round.  a decent second rounder that just didn't develop.  Big Al was the key piece in the Garnett deal.
2005:Gerald Green (19), Ryan Gomes (50), Orien Greene (53).  Green was a highly regarded prospect that dropped.  didn't pan out but was able to develop and get back into the league as a solid role player for a number of years.  not an overall bust but didn't help the C's while here but was a key piece in the Garnett deal.  Gomes was an excellent pick in the second.  Greene had his moments as a late second rounder.
2006: Randy Foye (7) who was shipped out immediately for Sebastian Telfair and Leon Powe (49)  no real grade here but Telfair was a key piece in the Garnett deal.  Powe was a key piece in the title in 2008.
2007: Jeff Green (5), Gabe Pruitt (32) and Big Baby Davis.  Green was the key piece in the Ray Allen deal.  Pruitt just never put it together but he is a second round pick.  BBD was a key player in that title drive.
2008: JR Giddens (30) and Semih Erden (60).  Giddens stunk - first player that could be labelled a first round bust in Danny's first 6 years of drafting.  That's ignoring the fact that the 30th pick in the draft rarely pans out.  Erden was actually serviceable for a while.  that's pretty good for the last pick in the draft.
2009:Lester Hudson (58).  Lester had a few moments as a late second rounder.
2010: Avery Bradley (19) and Luke Harangody (52).  Avery was a terrific pick up at 19.  Luke didn't do much but again, late second round pick.
2011: Marshon Brooks (25) and E'Twuan Moore (55).  Brooks was flipped on draft night for JJJ (27).  JJJ was a bust.  kid had the tools but not the drive to succeed.  of course, that's ignoring the fact that the 27th pick in the draft usually doesn't pan out.  Moore is still playing in the NBA so pretty solid pick by Ainge that late in the draft.
2012: Jared Sullinger (21) and Fab Melo (22).  Sully was a really good player - when he could stay in shape.  very solid pick talent-wise.  Fab had bust written all over him and is probably the player that still holds the record for the highest percentage of posters here predicting he'd be a bust.
2013: Lucas Nogueira (16).  Flipped for Kelly Olynyk at 13.  KO's a very solid NBA player.  His 'problem' is that he'll always be known as the player that Danny took instead of Giannis because in their minds "Danny should have known how great Giannis would be". 
2014: Marcus Smart (6) and James Young (17).  Smart is the heart of the team.  would still take him over the other players people were crying for -- Randle being the primary one -- because unlike those other players, Smart plays hard every game and makes plays no one else in the league makes.  frustrating at times but he doesn't quit.  Young - bust pure and simple.
2015: Terry Rozier (16), RJ Hunter (28), Jordan Mickey (33) and Marcus Thornton (45).  Rozier is still a terrific player.  Hunter was a bust -- again ignoring how rare a 28th pick pans out.  Mickey didn't live up to the hype spewed by local draftnik Triboy.  Thornton did nothing.
2016: Jaylen Brown (3), Guerson Yabusele (16), Anton Zizic (23), Deyonta Davis (31), Rade Zagorac (35), Demetrius Jackson (45), Ben Bentil (51) and Abdel Nader (58).  Brown - I'd take him at #1 in a redraft.  after that, this draft become less about the draft picks made in terms of team contribution and much more about Danny's complete meltdown in managing these assets going into the draft.  having 8 picks and having to blow 2 of them on draft-and-stash players in the first round instead of using them on players that were better prospects.   Davis flipped in a deal to Memphis which essentially wasted the pick.  the other second rounders did nothing although Nader is still kicking around the league.  Bentil was a disappointment considering his career at PC admittedly.  Better asset management that could have resulted in picks made for talent instead of not needing a roster spot could have netted Caris Levert instead of Yabu AND Pascal Siakam or Dejounte Murray instead of Zizic AND Ivica Zubac instead of a traded Deyonta Davis And Malcolm Brogdon instead of Zagorac.  Again, taking a moment to look at what Danny did in this draft there's no way to see this as poor player evaluation but rather extremely poor asset management.  better roster and draft pick management and this team would be a contender with the talent they could have snagged in just this draft.
2017: Jayson Tatum (3), Semi Ojeleye (37), Kadeem Allen (53), Jabari Bird (56).  Tatum was the result of flipping #1 for #3 and a future first.  brilliant move by Danny.  Tatum is the jewel of that draft.  Semi is a very solid NBA player taken in the second round.  Allen and Bird didn't do much as late second rounders
2018: Robert Williams (27).  pure stud taken at 27. 
2019: Romeo Langford (14), Marcus Thybulle (20) Grant Williams (22), Carsen Edwards (33), Tremont Waters (53).  Romeo's showing he's a solid player.  top notch defender, good 3-pt shot and the ability to drive to the hoop.  Grant had a good rookie year, sophomore slump but in year 3 is looking like our best bench player.   Thybulle shipped out to Philly to get Edwards and another asset. Edwards and Waters just couldn't get it done.  Thybulle deal looks like a bad one since they saved a roster spot for Edwards who never panned out yet Thybulle is looking like Smart but with a worse shot.
2020: Aaron Nesmith (14), Payton Pritchard (26), Desmond Bane (30), Yam Madar (47).  Nesmith and Pritchard looked promising last year and seem to be going through a sophomore slump.  Bane was traded due to yet another season of Danny mismanaging draft assets.  Madar is also a product of that mismanagement since he was drafted as a draft-and-stash.

so, looking back on all those years of drafting, Danny's record is actually pretty [dang] good.  the only ones that would be considered busts (justly or not) are: Giddens, JJJ, Fab Melo, James Young, RJ Hunter.   Of those, only Young was taken higher than 22 and that's still at 17 which is not a slot where a guaranteed homerun will be found.
Yabu, Zizic and Bane all picks wasted due to poor asset management and not due to poor talent evaluation as proposed.  so take you condescending "lock stock argument of every Celtics fan who defends Ainge as a drafter -" and stick it.  I'd tell you to produce some actual meat to your argument but with all Ainge's draft picks laid out for all to see, there's nothing to back up your viewpoint.

TL;DR