Zach Lowe’s opinion of Fournier

[Celtics2021]

You call it hypocricy, but it's really just disagreeing with your assessment of both players.

I mean, I don’t understand the fascination with Smart from Cs fans. He’s not good lol. Fournier is a significantly more skilled player than him.  You want to tell me he’s getting paid 12-14 mil per? Sure. Fine. I can live with that. For close to $20 mil per? I’m all set.

I’m sure the Celtics have gotten trade offers for Smart from around the league.  So they know his value to other teams.  Likewise, they just traded for Fournier last spring, and know what it took to get him (not much).  Therefore, it is a given that the Celtics know which player is deemed more valuable.  My hunch is that it’s Smart, but regardless, it’s not like the Celtics don’t have really good information about this.

[Moranis]

You call it hypocricy, but it's really just disagreeing with your assessment of both players.

I mean, I don’t understand the fascination with Smart from Cs fans. He’s not good lol. Fournier is a significantly more skilled player than him.  You want to tell me he’s getting paid 12-14 mil per? Sure. Fine. I can live with that. For close to $20 mil per? I’m all set.

Fournier is a better scorer; Smart is better at everything else. You are fine with $14 million and not okay with $20 million. The Celtics split the difference and offered $17 million. I feel like that's fine...

Except for the fact that they play different positions. Smart is a point guard. Fournier is a skilled wing. Skilled wings are way more valuable than defense only guards. I’d be way more comfortable paying Fournier that money than paying Smart. Giving Smart that money is a gross overpay.

Smart is not a PG and Fournier is not skilled.  That is the problem with what you are saying. 

You can't pay 20 million a year for 13/3/3 of terrible defense.  It is a bad contract.

[Roy H.]

Fournier is not skilled

Come on, man.

[Moranis]

Fournier is not skilled

Come on, man.

He is a very good shooter, but he doesn't pass well, doesn't handle the ball well, is a bad rebounder, and is an absolutely terrible defender.  To me that isn't skilled, at least not in the way that was implied in the post I was responding to. 

13/3/3 with terrible defense is not worth anywhere close to 20 million a year.  You give out contracts like that, you stay in mediocrity for ever. 

[Chief]

Fournier is not skilled

Come on, man.

He is very skilled just not super athletic.

[Roy H.]

Fournier is not skilled

Come on, man.

He is a very good shooter, but he doesn't pass well, doesn't handle the ball well, is a bad rebounder, and is an absolutely terrible defender.  To me that isn't skilled, at least not in the way that was implied in the post I was responding to. 

13/3/3 with terrible defense is not worth anywhere close to 20 million a year.  You give out contracts like that, you stay in mediocrity for ever.

His defense is closer to mediocre than terrible, although I'll agree it was terrible in the playoffs (so was Brad's defensive strategy).

But, the 13/3/3 was pretty severely affected by covid.  He was having issues with stamina and depth perception, and yet he still managed to shoot just under 50% from three.  In Orlando, he was a consistent 18 to 20 point scorer, shooting around 40% from 3PT.

He is a lousy rebounder, but he's okay (not great) as a passer.

So, excellent scoring, excellent shooting, average passing, and below average to poor rebounding and defense.

He's skilled.  He's not a "do it all" guy like Lebron, Durant or Kawhi, but he's the type of SG that can be a third option on a very good team.  He's not that far off from Celtics-era Ray Allen.

[W8ting2McHale]

One criticism that I saw leveled a lot is that Fournier is a regular season player that wilts under playoff pressure. I don’t agree with that assessment entirely. He was showing up pretty big in the Olympics. Up until the Gold Medal game anyway.

5-15 shooting. 2-9 from 3 point range. If he’d had an average shooting night, that game would have been really close. The US only had KD and Jaysun scoring.

Did Fournier crumble or just underperform? Gobert had a decent game, but far from dominant. His only scoring help was Yabusele. The Dancing Bear stepped up! France was obviously the 2nd best team on the court, but if Fournier had been hot instead of cold, they could have stolen this game quite easily.

[#1P4P]

I wrote this before he signed to the Knicks and it still stands:

Fournier is a solid player. I’d pass on signing him to a $20M per/mult-year contract. Once it’s signed, there’s no exiting that contract without surrendering an asset or trading him for a liability, until it’s an expiring contract.

Prior playoff performance has to be taken into account and weighed heavily in committing to Fournier with that size of a contract. He has a career 12-3-2 average in the playoffs with subpar efficiency as a #2-3 option on the Magic (granted it’s been with terrible spacing) and is an average to below average defender.

Tatum and Brown are on the verge of being Top 10 and 20, respectively, and this next move has to be what Igoudala was for the Warriors and Fournier isn’t that. I’d look to package him with multiple 1sts to sign and trade him with a 3rd team that has a player like Joe Ingles, Dillon Brooks, Brogdon, or FVV.

To use him to match salary in a potential trade with that contract, you’d have to add an extra 1st to any deal and might have to find a 3rd/4th team to take him on plus the asking price of trading for the available superstar. Bertans signed for less than Fournier, shot 40% from 3 last season, still underperformed his role/contract, and is a negative asset.

This team is being built with above average individual and team defenders at every position to be an elite defense. Brad must be tired of having to create help schemes and asking his players to overextend themselves to cover for weak defenders. If we’re signing a player that doesn’t meet the criteria, it’ll be at an easily moved price.

[Roy H.]

One criticism that I saw leveled a lot is that Fournier is a regular season player that wilts under playoff pressure. I don’t agree with that assessment entirely. He was showing up pretty big in the Olympics. Up until the Gold Medal game anyway.

5-15 shooting. 2-9 from 3 point range. If he’d had an average shooting night, that game would have been really close. The US only had KD and Jaysun scoring.

Did Fournier crumble or just underperform? Gobert had a decent game, but far from dominant. His only scoring help was Yabusele. The Dancing Bear stepped up! France was obviously the 2nd best team on the court, but if Fournier had been hot instead of cold, they could have stolen this game quite easily.

Jrue Holiday was in peak form as a defender on him.  He didn't have any space to operate.

[Moranis]

Fournier is not skilled

Come on, man.

He is a very good shooter, but he doesn't pass well, doesn't handle the ball well, is a bad rebounder, and is an absolutely terrible defender.  To me that isn't skilled, at least not in the way that was implied in the post I was responding to. 

13/3/3 with terrible defense is not worth anywhere close to 20 million a year.  You give out contracts like that, you stay in mediocrity for ever.

His defense is closer to mediocre than terrible, although I'll agree it was terrible in the playoffs (so was Brad's defensive strategy).

But, the 13/3/3 was pretty severely affected by covid.  He was having issues with stamina and depth perception, and yet he still managed to shoot just under 50% from three.  In Orlando, he was a consistent 18 to 20 point scorer, shooting around 40% from 3PT.

He is a lousy rebounder, but he's okay (not great) as a passer.

So, excellent scoring, excellent shooting, average passing, and below average to poor rebounding and defense.

He's skilled.  He's not a "do it all" guy like Lebron, Durant or Kawhi, but he's the type of SG that can be a third option on a very good team.  He's not that far off from Celtics-era Ray Allen.

In Orlando, Fournier was taking the 2nd most shots on the team.  His last full season there when he averaged 18.5 ppg, only Vucevic was taking more shots a game then him.  He was taking almost 2 shots more a game than Gordon, who was 3rd on the team.  In Boston he was the 4th option.  And that is what he'd be going forward.  He isn't going to get the shots to be an 18 ppg scorer and he isn't good enough as a player or as a scorer to be a 2nd option or even a 3rd option on a good team.  He doesn't do anything else well.  He just isn't worth 20 million a year.  And it isn't just him, you can't pay your 4th offensive option that is a terrible defender 20 million a year.  Makes no difference who that guy is, it is a bad contract.  The Knicks are going to regret giving him that contract almost immediately.  He just isn't worth it. 

[Somebody]

One criticism that I saw leveled a lot is that Fournier is a regular season player that wilts under playoff pressure. I don’t agree with that assessment entirely. He was showing up pretty big in the Olympics. Up until the Gold Medal game anyway.

5-15 shooting. 2-9 from 3 point range. If he’d had an average shooting night, that game would have been really close. The US only had KD and Jaysun scoring.

Did Fournier crumble or just underperform? Gobert had a decent game, but far from dominant. His only scoring help was Yabusele. The Dancing Bear stepped up! France was obviously the 2nd best team on the court, but if Fournier had been hot instead of cold, they could have stolen this game quite easily.

Jrue Holiday was in peak form as a defender on him.  He didn't have any space to operate.

And you usually get a strong defender slapped on you in the playoffs unless you're the 5th option on offence, which isn't what Fournier is being paid to be. Our criticism of Fournier isn't some wishy-washy 'hurr he ain't clutch', it's that his offence falls off a cliff when he plays against strong defensive teams in the playoffs as any type of on-ball creator.

[Vermont Green]

As I look at the Fournier deal, assuming that 4 years / $78M , starting at about $18M, are the correct parameters, this is not a horrible deal for Fournier on the Knicks but it makes a lot less sense for the Celtics to pay this for him. We have Brown and Tatum plus also Richardson, Langford and Nesmith.  Fournier is a lot like these players in terms of position and role at least to the extent that he needs to score to help the team.  Brown and Tatum already give us a lot of what Fournier can give.  It is nice to have more of it but we don't need it as much.  It is a better fit the Knicks.  I have no disappointment over this.  Based on what  I saw of him on the Celtics, I think he is a tick over-rated anyway but $18M and up is not a horrible contract either for the Knicks, just not good a fit for the Celtics.

As to how this compares to Smart, again, assuming 4 years / $68M is what it is, I would rather have Smart at that number on this team.  Although he may not be a 100% natural PG, he can play PG just fine for us in my opinion, something Fournier can't do.  We can lose Fournier and it really doesn't create a hole.  Richardson, Langford, and Nesmith can all do what he does to varying degrees as the depth behind Tatum and Brown.  No one else on the team can do what Smart does.  Now if we get Schroder, then sure, Smart becomes much more expendable.

I don't think either the Fournier contract or the Smart contract will prove to be "immovable".  They are both good fits for the respective teams in the short term and if the roster composition needs to change over time, either player would be a reasonable trade asset.  I see this has become a big debate but it all just kind of makes sense to me.  Fournier is just a far better match for the Knicks than for the Celtics.