Are high individual playoff scoring totals getting out of hand?

[Moranis]

I've gotta say, I love seeing the stars erupt for big nights.  I wish teams were allowed to actually play defense more, but a guy who basically dares the other team to stop him is special. 

It's why we still talk about Larry vs. Dominique decades later.  Larry scored 20 in the fourth, taking over individually.  Dominique finished with 47, with 14 in the fourth.  If those guys had shared the ball more and gotten open shots for lesser players, do we still talk about the game?  Do the Celtics even win that game if Bird is more deferential?

The problem is that it's becoming like the Triple Double.  It's no longer special.  We talk about Larry and Nique because it was a special night.  Now it happens all the time.  It's not special when every team has a guy that can do it.  Luka went for 46 last night and lost by 15.  Tatum went for 40 and lost by 15.  It's not even keeping teams in games anymore.

Is this a new thing do you think?  Haven't stars always had giant games in the playoffs?

Jordan, Malone, Barkley, Robinson, Hakeem, Shaq ...

And even today, I don't think some of the amazing individual games we've seen have been a factor of bad defense.  Remember IT against Washington?  He *earned* those points.  Tatum with his recent 50+ point games, did you get the impression that the defense was giving him bunnies?

I haven't watched most of the games in the playoffs this year, so I can't necessarily weigh in on the total phenomena that you're seeing.  But is this any different than superstars doing superstar things?

Here are Jordan's first 10 playoff games (1-9, before Pippen)

23
30
35 (the only win)
29
49
63
19
35
42
30

You might think Pippen and winning slowed him down. You would be wrong.  Here is 1988

50 (w)
55 (w)
38
44
39 (w)
29
36 (w)
24
23
25

How about 89

31
30 (l)
44
50 (l)
44
34
15 (l)
40
47
38 (l)
40
32
27 (l)
46
23 (l)
18 (l)
32 (l)

[furball]

I've gotta say, I love seeing the stars erupt for big nights.  I wish teams were allowed to actually play defense more, but a guy who basically dares the other team to stop him is special. 

It's why we still talk about Larry vs. Dominique decades later.  Larry scored 20 in the fourth, taking over individually.  Dominique finished with 47, with 14 in the fourth.  If those guys had shared the ball more and gotten open shots for lesser players, do we still talk about the game?  Do the Celtics even win that game if Bird is more deferential?

The problem is that it's becoming like the Triple Double.  It's no longer special.  We talk about Larry and Nique because it was a special night.  Now it happens all the time.  It's not special when every team has a guy that can do it.  Luka went for 46 last night and lost by 15.  Tatum went for 40 and lost by 15.  It's not even keeping teams in games anymore.

Is this a new thing do you think?  Haven't stars always had giant games in the playoffs?

Jordan, Malone, Barkley, Robinson, Hakeem, Shaq ...

And even today, I don't think some of the amazing individual games we've seen have been a factor of bad defense.  Remember IT against Washington?  He *earned* those points.  Tatum with his recent 50+ point games, did you get the impression that the defense was giving him bunnies?

I haven't watched most of the games in the playoffs this year, so I can't necessarily weigh in on the total phenomena that you're seeing.  But is this any different than superstars doing superstar things?

So, you questioned if this is a new thing so I checked it out.  And you are correct, looking at play-off highs for top guys in the 80's and this century, it seems to be pretty common.  Maybe it's the media coverage that makes it feel that way.  Obviously comparing the coverage from the 80s to today isn't two completely different things.  but even that of last decade feels less than now a days.  (I am counting on line coverage like twitter in this).  If definitely feels like it's happening more often but I guess not. 

[johnnygreen]

You can barely defend without fouling in this day and age, that's one of the main reasons.

I find myself rolling my eyes whenever I see a star player go 4-19 from the field, but they still score 20+ points because they took 15+ free throw attempts. A lot of these high scoring games mentioned here are inflated with free throw attempts because they jumped into a defender, and a foul was called because the defender touched him.

I still think the league needs to take a stance on flopping, and it starts with abolishing the charge rule. I imagine a lot of people here have played the game. How many of you have ever seen a charge called, when a referee wasn't present? Instead of just standing there, it forces the defender to actually move his feet or attempt to block the shot.

[Roy H.]

I've gotta say, I love seeing the stars erupt for big nights.  I wish teams were allowed to actually play defense more, but a guy who basically dares the other team to stop him is special. 

It's why we still talk about Larry vs. Dominique decades later.  Larry scored 20 in the fourth, taking over individually.  Dominique finished with 47, with 14 in the fourth.  If those guys had shared the ball more and gotten open shots for lesser players, do we still talk about the game?  Do the Celtics even win that game if Bird is more deferential?

The problem is that it's becoming like the Triple Double.  It's no longer special.  We talk about Larry and Nique because it was a special night.  Now it happens all the time.  It's not special when every team has a guy that can do it.  Luka went for 46 last night and lost by 15.  Tatum went for 40 and lost by 15.  It's not even keeping teams in games anymore.

Is this a new thing do you think?  Haven't stars always had giant games in the playoffs?

Jordan, Malone, Barkley, Robinson, Hakeem, Shaq ...

And even today, I don't think some of the amazing individual games we've seen have been a factor of bad defense.  Remember IT against Washington?  He *earned* those points.  Tatum with his recent 50+ point games, did you get the impression that the defense was giving him bunnies?

I haven't watched most of the games in the playoffs this year, so I can't necessarily weigh in on the total phenomena that you're seeing.  But is this any different than superstars doing superstar things?

So, you questioned if this is a new thing so I checked it out.  And you are correct, looking at play-off highs for top guys in the 80's and this century, it seems to be pretty common.  Maybe it's the media coverage that makes it feel that way.  Obviously comparing the coverage from the 80s to today isn't two completely different things.  but even that of last decade feels less than now a days.  (I am counting on line coverage like twitter in this).  If definitely feels like it's happening more often but I guess not.

Yeah, there wasn't as much over-hyping back then, I think.  I think that you're right that it's largely exposure, particularly through social media.  Modern fans have largely forgot guys like Bernard King and Adrian Dantley, but imagine if they played today.  They'd be the absolute focus of sports coverage.

[Roy H.]

How many of you have ever seen a charge called, when a referee wasn't present? Instead of just standing there, it forces the defender to actually move his feet or attempt to block the shot.

Man, I loved taking charges in pickup games.  Back in the day I was built, and it was like running into a brick wall for guys driving to the hoop.  You're right, those calls never got made, but they didn't need to be, because pretty soon guys quit driving.

NBA guys obviously play at a different level of athleticism and coordination.  Your comment just brought back fond memories.

[ETNCeltics]

You can barely defend without fouling in this day and age, that's one of the main reasons.

I find myself rolling my eyes whenever I see a star player go 4-19 from the field, but they still score 20+ points because they took 15+ free throw attempts. A lot of these high scoring games mentioned here are inflated with free throw attempts because they jumped into a defender, and a foul was called because the defender touched him.

I still think the league needs to take a stance on flopping, and it starts with abolishing the charge rule. I imagine a lot of people here have played the game. How many of you have ever seen a charge called, when a referee wasn't present? Instead of just standing there, it forces the defender to actually move his feet or attempt to block the shot.

When it comes to flopping, the league has to be willing to address the flopping of its marquee player or it'll just be hypocritical nonsense.

[Roy H.]

You can barely defend without fouling in this day and age, that's one of the main reasons.

I find myself rolling my eyes whenever I see a star player go 4-19 from the field, but they still score 20+ points because they took 15+ free throw attempts. A lot of these high scoring games mentioned here are inflated with free throw attempts because they jumped into a defender, and a foul was called because the defender touched him.

I still think the league needs to take a stance on flopping, and it starts with abolishing the charge rule. I imagine a lot of people here have played the game. How many of you have ever seen a charge called, when a referee wasn't present? Instead of just standing there, it forces the defender to actually move his feet or attempt to block the shot.

When it comes to flopping, the league has to be willing to address the flopping of its marquee player or it'll just be hypocritical nonsense.

You know, Lebron is an interesting case.  He absolutely flops.  At the same time, I think he sometimes gets screwed out of fouls because he's so big and strong, sort of like Shaq did back in the day.  He almost gets penalized for being able to finish through contact.

Not a popular opinion, I know.  My bigger problem has always been the calls he gets while playing defense.  He'll go several games in a row without being called for a foul, which is ridiculous.

[bdm860]

A couple of things to remember.

More games now = more chances to have a high scoring game.

Up until '83 only 6 teams from each conference made the playoffs, with the top teams in each division getting a bye in the first round.  NBA playoffs didn't go to 16 teams until '84.  The 1st round was only best of 3 in '83, then was best of 5 from '84 until '03.  So a lot fewer games (and a lot less chances for big scoring outputs) in the past.  To put some numbers to it, in '81 there were 10 total 1st round games, in '91 and '01 there were 32, and in '11 and '21 there were 43.  If you want to add in play-in games, then that's 6 more games in '21.

But also remember when comparing different periods, overall scoring can change greatly.  Here's the average playoff scoring over the last 40ish years.



It peaked in 1985 with 114.7ppg, from about '94-'13, the total average was 94.2 with lows of 87.6 in '99 and '88 in '04.  But now it's been trending back up sitting at 111.7 currently.

So any playoff game from now compared to '94-'13 will have ~20 extra points per team that needs to be distributed, and we know that's not going to get distributed equally amongst the team, it's going mostly to the star(s).


Also looking in the past, there's probably a whole lot of big scoring outputs you never remember.  In '85 for example, Bird led the way with 3 40+ point games, but Rolando Blackman and Alex English both had 2, and Terry Cummings and George Gervin each had 1.  As an honorable mention, Mike Mitchell who most people probably never heard scored 37 one game.  Add 11 more games to the first round, do we get even more?

[Moranis]

You can barely defend without fouling in this day and age, that's one of the main reasons.

I find myself rolling my eyes whenever I see a star player go 4-19 from the field, but they still score 20+ points because they took 15+ free throw attempts. A lot of these high scoring games mentioned here are inflated with free throw attempts because they jumped into a defender, and a foul was called because the defender touched him.

I still think the league needs to take a stance on flopping, and it starts with abolishing the charge rule. I imagine a lot of people here have played the game. How many of you have ever seen a charge called, when a referee wasn't present? Instead of just standing there, it forces the defender to actually move his feet or attempt to block the shot.

That isn't new either.

Jordan's 1st four playoff games he shot 10, 12, 16, and 20 foul shots his FG% in those games 36.8, 52.9, 46.2, 37.5 and he scored 23, 30, 35, 29 points.  The 23 point game he was 7 of 19 from the field and 9 of 10 from the line.  The 29 point game he was 6 of 16 from the field but was 17 of 20 from the line.  The other two games he obviously shot better from the field, but the 30 point game he only had 17 shots with 9 made FG's (he was 1 of 4 from 3). 

[ozgod]

It seems like almost every game this playoff season someone is going off for 35-40 points or more. Sometimes multiple players in the same game are reaching that level. Isn’t this unprecedented?

Years ago Larry Bird or Michael Jordan scoring 35 or 40 in a game was a super human achievement. Now it’s common place. I know the game has changed, but is it sustainable?

Someone said earlier this week (possibly Moranis, but I could be wrong) that they preferred watching a player with triple-double type stats: 20-10-10, to a guy with high scoring stats: 40-5-5. (I think it came up in a discussion on Tatum scoring 40-50 so often).

Is it just the result of iso heavy offense systems or does the league just have a bunch of superstar scorers now? Do you like watching one guy just take over a game?

The volume of 3s being shot in a game today far exceeds those in the 80s or 90s, which is a big part. The other is the fact that all the rules have made it easier for offensive players to shine.