Mike Gorman doesnt think Tatum and Brown can be the leaders for the Celtics

[Somebody]

Two points:

First, Tatum and Brown are not at the same place as far as leadership goes. It seems pretty obvious to me that Brown is a leader and Tatum is just Tatum. It wasn't just the 20 points in the first quarter, it was the manic intensity on defense and the conscious attempt to bring along other teammates. Brown made sure to get good looks for Tatum and Thompson even as he was clearly taking over the game, and to Tatum's credit, he made a couple of great passes back.

Tatum and Brown play like separate islands, and it is not a good trend. It was nice to see the first quarter play out differently. There was some slippage after that by Tatum where he went back to his old habits, but it's something to build on.

Second, Walker and Smart are not leaders, and it isn't because they've missed games. Walker is a genuinely positive guy and Smart is super competitive, but they display no other forms of leadership. They don't adjust their games to what the team needs. They don't course correct in games when the team stagnates. They don't sense when they need to get another player going. They just do what they do.

How on earth would you know these things?

Well, that's what the word "display" means. I specifically was referring to the leadership we can all see, as fans.

If you want to point out that there could be some forms of leadership going on that are not on display, then yes, that is a legitimate, but completely unverifiable point.

I’m not sure that it is unverifiable.  Many players have talked about Kemba’s mentorship, and about Smart’s passion and leadership.  Remember that leadership presents itself in different ways.  KG led through intensity, but he also bullied some guys and wrote others off.  Pierce was tough, but at times immature.  It’s hard to find a “complete package”.

Now, I do think that our locker room could use a few more veterans. Kyrie wasnt wrong when he suggested that we could use a 15 year vet.  Guys like you Udonis Haslam, Juwan Howard and James Jones are worth having on a roster more so than a guy like Carsen Edwards.  It’s even better if those guys can still play a little, like a PJ brown or a Sam Cassell.

I'm sorry, but you are confusing style with substance.

When you say something like "KG led through intensity", that's just his demeanor, or style. What matters is seeing what needs to be done to win, and getting others to follow you to a better outcome. KG got several of his teammates to play harder, work harder, and concentrate more. They won a championship. Being a good example is only half of leadership. How you lead is interesting, but whether you lead is a matter of getting your teammates to be better, somehow.

KG has also punched at least two of his teammates, made another one cry, refused to work out with certain teammates, and usually refused to support his team from the sidelines. 

As Danny said:

"If you don't meet his expectations," says Celtics president of basketball operations Danny Ainge, "he has no use for you."

When Kevin came through those doors on game day, he was angry," says Celtics guard Avery Bradley, who played with Garnett for three seasons. "We couldn't laugh, talk, listen to music. We'd all hide in the training room or the bathroom -- wherever KG wasn't."

A partial list of ex-teammates who have endured the wrath of the Big Ticket includes Glen "Big Baby" Davis, Mason Plumlee, Ray Allen, Wally Szczerbiak, Rajon Rondo, Rasho Nesterovic, Patrick O'Bryant and Deron Williams. Some have survived to be welcomed into Garnett's inner circle; others are forever dead to him.

It was KG's team, his voice, his show, his everything. Anyone who differed was going to be an outcast

Consider former Celtic Patrick O'Bryant, the ninth pick in the 2006 draft. Early in the 2008-09 season, O'Bryant was putting in some post work with Celtics assistant coach Clifford Ray after practice when Garnett summoned him to the other end of the floor. KG wanted to light a fire under the young center, who he felt was too placid. Garnett immediately began berating O'Bryant, criticizing him mercilessly. When O'Bryant didn't react, KG pushed harder. Still nothing. Garnett walked off the court in disgust.

"You know how he is," O'Bryant says. "He was yelling and screaming, trying to get me to scream back, but that's not who I am. I don't need to yell at someone all the way down the court after I dunk. Just because I didn't have a mean look on my face didn't mean I wasn't listening."

From that day forward, those close to the team say, Garnett would go out of his way to bully O'Bryant. Normally a pass-first player, KG would take the ball forcefully to the hole if O'Bryant was guarding him in practice. He subjected him to a nonstop stream of insults to break him. "Patrick would miss a shot, and he'd just torture him," Powe says. "Kevin wasn't going to forgive him. He'd talk crazy to him. We told Patrick, 'Don't let him get under your skin,' but it was too late."

"Kevin destroyed him," Rivers says. "It was mean-spirited."

Sometimes a player came in, Ainge says, "and it was a little scary to have KG around him. His work ethic was unquestioned, but he could be intimidating -- and destructive -- if the player didn't respond in the right way."

So, was KG a good leader?  Is that the guy others should emulate?  I'm not sure he is, at least solely.  Destructive, mean-spirited, bullying, intimidating...  That's not going to work on most teams.  KG couldn't motivate Mark Blount and Ricky Davis. 

Guys were scared of KG.  Guys look up to Kemba and Marcus.  A team needs a mix, and I'm not sure that it's fair at all to say that Kemba and Smart aren't leaders.  Nor is it fair, necessarily, to say that JT and JB aren't up to the task.

KG was always a bully and was always about himself.  He only picked on weaker younger players.  He never went after guys like Shaq.  Just a pure classic bully under any definition of the word.  And I do believe that is a large reason why his Wolves teams always flamed out.  It was only when two guys came in that didn't put up KG's crap that the Wolves had a successful season and they both basically bolted the minute they had a chance.  KG was a great player, but he was a terrible teammate.  That held true in Boston as well, but Pierce and Allen didn't put up with his crap either and the 3 of them collectively were just better than everyone else.  I actually think KG is pretty similar to Michael Jordan personality wise, KG just wasn't as good as Jordan so he didn't win like him.

I don't think any leader worth his salt should go after the greatest players of all time to be fair. Or maybe those Wolves teams were absolute crap and the two guys who 'didn't put up with KG's crap' were some of his best teammates ever in Minnesota (btw Cassell was traded and Sprewell left because of money instead of KG), hence they rode KG's coattails as two of his first passable sidekicks to a WCF appearance that could've possibly culminated in a championship if one of them didn't do a stupid dance that lead to an injury.

[Roy H.]

I don't think any leader worth his salt should go after the greatest players of all time to be fair.

On his own team or versus opponents?

[Moranis]

Two points:

First, Tatum and Brown are not at the same place as far as leadership goes. It seems pretty obvious to me that Brown is a leader and Tatum is just Tatum. It wasn't just the 20 points in the first quarter, it was the manic intensity on defense and the conscious attempt to bring along other teammates. Brown made sure to get good looks for Tatum and Thompson even as he was clearly taking over the game, and to Tatum's credit, he made a couple of great passes back.

Tatum and Brown play like separate islands, and it is not a good trend. It was nice to see the first quarter play out differently. There was some slippage after that by Tatum where he went back to his old habits, but it's something to build on.

Second, Walker and Smart are not leaders, and it isn't because they've missed games. Walker is a genuinely positive guy and Smart is super competitive, but they display no other forms of leadership. They don't adjust their games to what the team needs. They don't course correct in games when the team stagnates. They don't sense when they need to get another player going. They just do what they do.

How on earth would you know these things?

Well, that's what the word "display" means. I specifically was referring to the leadership we can all see, as fans.

If you want to point out that there could be some forms of leadership going on that are not on display, then yes, that is a legitimate, but completely unverifiable point.

I’m not sure that it is unverifiable.  Many players have talked about Kemba’s mentorship, and about Smart’s passion and leadership.  Remember that leadership presents itself in different ways.  KG led through intensity, but he also bullied some guys and wrote others off.  Pierce was tough, but at times immature.  It’s hard to find a “complete package”.

Now, I do think that our locker room could use a few more veterans. Kyrie wasnt wrong when he suggested that we could use a 15 year vet.  Guys like you Udonis Haslam, Juwan Howard and James Jones are worth having on a roster more so than a guy like Carsen Edwards.  It’s even better if those guys can still play a little, like a PJ brown or a Sam Cassell.

I'm sorry, but you are confusing style with substance.

When you say something like "KG led through intensity", that's just his demeanor, or style. What matters is seeing what needs to be done to win, and getting others to follow you to a better outcome. KG got several of his teammates to play harder, work harder, and concentrate more. They won a championship. Being a good example is only half of leadership. How you lead is interesting, but whether you lead is a matter of getting your teammates to be better, somehow.

KG has also punched at least two of his teammates, made another one cry, refused to work out with certain teammates, and usually refused to support his team from the sidelines. 

As Danny said:

"If you don't meet his expectations," says Celtics president of basketball operations Danny Ainge, "he has no use for you."

When Kevin came through those doors on game day, he was angry," says Celtics guard Avery Bradley, who played with Garnett for three seasons. "We couldn't laugh, talk, listen to music. We'd all hide in the training room or the bathroom -- wherever KG wasn't."

A partial list of ex-teammates who have endured the wrath of the Big Ticket includes Glen "Big Baby" Davis, Mason Plumlee, Ray Allen, Wally Szczerbiak, Rajon Rondo, Rasho Nesterovic, Patrick O'Bryant and Deron Williams. Some have survived to be welcomed into Garnett's inner circle; others are forever dead to him.

It was KG's team, his voice, his show, his everything. Anyone who differed was going to be an outcast

Consider former Celtic Patrick O'Bryant, the ninth pick in the 2006 draft. Early in the 2008-09 season, O'Bryant was putting in some post work with Celtics assistant coach Clifford Ray after practice when Garnett summoned him to the other end of the floor. KG wanted to light a fire under the young center, who he felt was too placid. Garnett immediately began berating O'Bryant, criticizing him mercilessly. When O'Bryant didn't react, KG pushed harder. Still nothing. Garnett walked off the court in disgust.

"You know how he is," O'Bryant says. "He was yelling and screaming, trying to get me to scream back, but that's not who I am. I don't need to yell at someone all the way down the court after I dunk. Just because I didn't have a mean look on my face didn't mean I wasn't listening."

From that day forward, those close to the team say, Garnett would go out of his way to bully O'Bryant. Normally a pass-first player, KG would take the ball forcefully to the hole if O'Bryant was guarding him in practice. He subjected him to a nonstop stream of insults to break him. "Patrick would miss a shot, and he'd just torture him," Powe says. "Kevin wasn't going to forgive him. He'd talk crazy to him. We told Patrick, 'Don't let him get under your skin,' but it was too late."

"Kevin destroyed him," Rivers says. "It was mean-spirited."

Sometimes a player came in, Ainge says, "and it was a little scary to have KG around him. His work ethic was unquestioned, but he could be intimidating -- and destructive -- if the player didn't respond in the right way."

So, was KG a good leader?  Is that the guy others should emulate?  I'm not sure he is, at least solely.  Destructive, mean-spirited, bullying, intimidating...  That's not going to work on most teams.  KG couldn't motivate Mark Blount and Ricky Davis. 

Guys were scared of KG.  Guys look up to Kemba and Marcus.  A team needs a mix, and I'm not sure that it's fair at all to say that Kemba and Smart aren't leaders.  Nor is it fair, necessarily, to say that JT and JB aren't up to the task.

KG was always a bully and was always about himself.  He only picked on weaker younger players.  He never went after guys like Shaq.  Just a pure classic bully under any definition of the word.  And I do believe that is a large reason why his Wolves teams always flamed out.  It was only when two guys came in that didn't put up KG's crap that the Wolves had a successful season and they both basically bolted the minute they had a chance.  KG was a great player, but he was a terrible teammate.  That held true in Boston as well, but Pierce and Allen didn't put up with his crap either and the 3 of them collectively were just better than everyone else.  I actually think KG is pretty similar to Michael Jordan personality wise, KG just wasn't as good as Jordan so he didn't win like him.

I don't think any leader worth his salt should go after the greatest players of all time to be fair. Or maybe those Wolves teams were absolute crap and the two guys who 'didn't put up with KG's crap' were some of his best teammates ever in Minnesota (btw Cassell was traded and Sprewell left because of money instead of KG), hence they rode KG's coattails as two of his first passable sidekicks to a WCF appearance that could've possibly culminated in a championship if one of them didn't do a stupid dance that lead to an injury.

KG went after rookies, young guys, foreign born players, and guys that generally weren't very good.  He never went after veterans or great players.  Because that is what bully's do.  They pick on the weak.  They pick on the young. They pick on the different.  They pick on the ones that can't or are unable to stick up for themselves. 

And this has been well documented.  There are countless articles about him and his bullyesque nature.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2665480-kevin-garnett-leaves-behind-legacy-as-nbas-most-beloved-bully

It's just that the targets of his intensity were often soft ones, and his willingness to follow through on all that scowling chatter seemed to often depend on the readiness of the victim to fight back.

https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2015/1/14/7539949/kevin-garnett-fight-sad-bully

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/14172961/the-cruel-tutelage-kevin-garnett (this is Jackie Mac article from which Roy pulled some quotes)

another quote from that article

"Just because someone doesn't play with the same fire as KG, it doesn't mean they're soft," Billups says. "It also doesn't mean they don't care, but in KG's raving, crazy mind, that's how he sees it. If he sees something one time, that's what he believes in, no matter what. That's not always great for a leader, I admit that, but that's who he is."

Or how about Woj

https://sports.yahoo.com/news/garnetts-bully-act-goes-too-181700093--nba.html

He's so smart, so calculating, that it remains a conundrum why he has always gone to such lengths to be a needlessly vicious bully.

For years, he's gone after smaller, younger players. He never goes after tough guys. Never. For some reason, he reveled in going out of his way to abuse European players. So many young Euros grew up idolizing him, loved the range of his versatility at 7 feet, only to have images of him shattered with cheap shots and trash talk on the floor. A few days ago, this happened to the Knicks' Timofey Mozgov(notes). It happens all the time. Pau Gasol(notes). Jose Calderon(notes). The list is long and the act is tired.

Nevertheless, it's stained his legacy. This one promises to chase him into retirement. Beyond that of an MVP and an NBA champion, Garnett has gone to inexplicable lengths to craft a parallel legacy: a vicious bully, a cold and cruel jerk.

For all the instances of Garnett's bullying available on YouTube, those two words – "cancer patient" – will never go away. This is the one that people will remember, the stain that'll be hardest to wash away. Garnett's 34 years old, and shamefully a man too smart – too principled in a lot of ways – to act like this. Only, he's done it for years, and it's now a bigger part of his legacy than an old Boston Celtics champion will want to believe.

[ozgod]

Before the game, Tatum talked about his "quiet" leadership style.

Celtics forward Jayson Tatum is close to completing his fourth NBA season. Even though he just turned 23 in March, he already has played in two All-Star Games and has given plenty of reason to believe that many more will follow.

This season, he averaged 26.4 points, 7.4 rebounds, and 4.3 assists per game, all of which were career highs. He is this team’s present and future, and he is one of its leaders. But when he is on the floor, it might not always appear that way. Although Tatum is a fierce competitor, he is also mild-mannered, and sometimes his fire is not obvious.

But on Tuesday morning, Tatum stressed that his slightly subdued approach should not be mistaken for a lack of leadership.

“Everybody is different, right?” he said. “And I’m sure the people who watch the games and, you know, give their opinion on what happens kind of want you to be a certain way, and think that if you’re yelling and screaming and stuff like that, that necessarily makes you a leader. It works for some guys.

“[I’m] certain that we can name plenty of other guys who are special and led their team and, I don’t know, in a quieter way, just because of their demeanor. Not necessarily yelling and screaming on the court or in the huddle so that everyone can see.

“It can be in how you play, how you show up every day. You know, pulling guys to the side, which everybody won’t see that. I’m certain that people think that since I’m not overly emotional or do things like that, they can kind of question whatever they want to question. Leadership comes in all different types of fashions. I just do it in my own way.”

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/05/18/sports/celtics-star-jayson-tatum-defends-his-leadership-style/

Why is it that we as fans prefer the yellers? We want Brad to yell, we want Tatum to yell...we admire guys like Thibs or Pop or Draymond who wear their hearts on their sleeves. Is it because in the privacy of our own lounge rooms it's a lot easier to yell at the TV? Or is it because quiet people are seen more as introverts, and hence not as leaders?

[Scottiej23]

Before the game, Tatum talked about his "quiet" leadership style.

Celtics forward Jayson Tatum is close to completing his fourth NBA season. Even though he just turned 23 in March, he already has played in two All-Star Games and has given plenty of reason to believe that many more will follow.

This season, he averaged 26.4 points, 7.4 rebounds, and 4.3 assists per game, all of which were career highs. He is this team’s present and future, and he is one of its leaders. But when he is on the floor, it might not always appear that way. Although Tatum is a fierce competitor, he is also mild-mannered, and sometimes his fire is not obvious.

But on Tuesday morning, Tatum stressed that his slightly subdued approach should not be mistaken for a lack of leadership.

“Everybody is different, right?” he said. “And I’m sure the people who watch the games and, you know, give their opinion on what happens kind of want you to be a certain way, and think that if you’re yelling and screaming and stuff like that, that necessarily makes you a leader. It works for some guys.

“[I’m] certain that we can name plenty of other guys who are special and led their team and, I don’t know, in a quieter way, just because of their demeanor. Not necessarily yelling and screaming on the court or in the huddle so that everyone can see.

“It can be in how you play, how you show up every day. You know, pulling guys to the side, which everybody won’t see that. I’m certain that people think that since I’m not overly emotional or do things like that, they can kind of question whatever they want to question. Leadership comes in all different types of fashions. I just do it in my own way.”

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/05/18/sports/celtics-star-jayson-tatum-defends-his-leadership-style/

Why is it that we as fans prefer the yellers? We want Brad to yell, we want Tatum to yell...we admire guys like Thibs or Pop or Draymond who wear their hearts on their sleeves. Is it because in the privacy of our own lounge rooms it's a lot easier to yell at the TV? Or is it because quiet people are seen more as introverts, and hence not as leaders?

I'd suggest it's due to the "fans" limited emotional capacity/development who live (and react) only in the moment before anything else.

[Goldstar88]

Before the game, Tatum talked about his "quiet" leadership style.

Celtics forward Jayson Tatum is close to completing his fourth NBA season. Even though he just turned 23 in March, he already has played in two All-Star Games and has given plenty of reason to believe that many more will follow.

This season, he averaged 26.4 points, 7.4 rebounds, and 4.3 assists per game, all of which were career highs. He is this team’s present and future, and he is one of its leaders. But when he is on the floor, it might not always appear that way. Although Tatum is a fierce competitor, he is also mild-mannered, and sometimes his fire is not obvious.

But on Tuesday morning, Tatum stressed that his slightly subdued approach should not be mistaken for a lack of leadership.

“Everybody is different, right?” he said. “And I’m sure the people who watch the games and, you know, give their opinion on what happens kind of want you to be a certain way, and think that if you’re yelling and screaming and stuff like that, that necessarily makes you a leader. It works for some guys.

“[I’m] certain that we can name plenty of other guys who are special and led their team and, I don’t know, in a quieter way, just because of their demeanor. Not necessarily yelling and screaming on the court or in the huddle so that everyone can see.

“It can be in how you play, how you show up every day. You know, pulling guys to the side, which everybody won’t see that. I’m certain that people think that since I’m not overly emotional or do things like that, they can kind of question whatever they want to question. Leadership comes in all different types of fashions. I just do it in my own way.”

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/05/18/sports/celtics-star-jayson-tatum-defends-his-leadership-style/

Why is it that we as fans prefer the yellers? We want Brad to yell, we want Tatum to yell...we admire guys like Thibs or Pop or Draymond who wear their hearts on their sleeves. Is it because in the privacy of our own lounge rooms it's a lot easier to yell at the TV? Or is it because quiet people are seen more as introverts, and hence not as leaders?

Well said by JT and he’s right.

[Celtics4ever]

Yelling is the kind of coaching most fans crave because most people never made it past the yellers in their own experience/careers.   That does not work with grown men.  The same people who always harp on boxing out when almost no pros do it.