Poll

What big man steps up and plays really good minutes for the Celtics this year

Robert Williams
12 (28.6%)
Grant Williams
10 (23.8%)
Vincent Pourier
11 (26.2%)
Tacko Fall
5 (11.9%)
Daniel Theis
4 (9.5%)

Total Members Voted: 42

Author Topic: Poll: What big will surprise this year  (Read 4631 times)

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Re: Poll: What big will surprise this year
« Reply #30 on: October 02, 2019, 12:03:48 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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 Where Stevens is flat out wrong is not even considering 6'9" Robert Williams at PF. Or even 6'8" Theis.

 Williams Skillet of Handling the ball fairly well, very promising court vision and passing ability, ability to switch. Set picks and roll to the hoop or make a nice pass.

 Then throw in Theis who can stretch the floor better.   Kanter and Rwill or Kanter and Theis are solid options when playing big.

 My biggest concern is Stevens and his lack of flexibility.

Williams should not play PF for many reasons.  First and foremost, the defensive responsibilities of the two positions are different, and Williams needs to learn the more difficult center role.  Secondly, although he can pass reasonably well for a big, he would limit floor spacing if paired with someone like Kanter or Poirier, which would gum up any NBA offense in use today.  Thirdly, he did play a fair amount of PF in college, and teams took advantage of those lineups. If it’s not working in college, it almost assuredly won’t work in the NBA.  He’s a center, pure and simple.

Theis, I’m fine with in limited amounts at the 4 against certain opponents.  He’s comfortable taking the three and isn’t a pure center anyway.  But Time Lord is a center.  Leave him there.

The one exception I'd suggest is against the rare 2-big lineups, like the Lakers are planning to have. R Williams matches up reasonably well against AD, probably better than Grant Williams and definitely better than Tatum. Even then we'd really really want a floor-spacing big at the 5 on offense and we don't know if we have any of those yet. Agree that the 5 is his future unless he really refines his game.

Re: Poll: What big will surprise this year
« Reply #31 on: October 05, 2019, 11:25:39 AM »

Offline Hoopvortex

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 Where Stevens is flat out wrong is not even considering 6'9" Robert Williams at PF. Or even 6'8" Theis.

How do you know that he hasn't?

The issue is not only height, it's the ability to cover ground and fit with a group of 5.

It's true that both RW and Theis have pretty much exclusively been used as the sole big. But Timelord's few minutes in the league so far can't be taken as a preference for the future.

My biggest concern is Stevens and his lack of flexibility.

I'm tempted to just say "Say what?" and leave it at that, but I'd suggest that you compare the IT/Horford offense to the Kyrie/Horford offense.

I'd claim, in fact, that one of Brad's strengths is creating a system for the players he has, rather than forcing players into a cookie-cutter System.

Williams should not play PF for many reasons.  First and foremost, the defensive responsibilities of the two positions are different, and Williams needs to learn the more difficult center role.  Secondly, although he can pass reasonably well for a big, he would limit floor spacing if paired with someone like Kanter or Poirier, which would gum up any NBA offense in use today.  Thirdly, he did play a fair amount of PF in college, and teams took advantage of those lineups. If it’s not working in college, it almost assuredly won’t work in the NBA.  He’s a center, pure and simple.

I'm not persuaded by your arguments.

Your first point: even if we accept that there is some abstract ideal that dictates what the "defensive responsibilities" of those two positions are, what reason would we have to think that Robert can't fulfill both? In fact he's very quick side to side, and even has the rare ability to block jump shots on the man he's guarding out on the floor.

Your second point: you are talking about his lack of outside shooting, I think? This is a good point  only if Poirier and Kanter aren't spacing the floor shooting 3's - but it looks like they're both putting up a lot of them in training camp. Theis, of course, was an effective 3-pt shooter last season.

Pairing two bigs is an advantage - and this coaching staff has used it extensively. The 2017-18 starting lineup that they eventually settled on, with Baynes/Horford, was the high watermark for the Stevens era in Boston. Size gives you a defensive advantage - size in the abstract, because size without speed is <death by threes>. So if you have two bigs on the floor, at least one of them needs to be able to get out to the line quick.

That's where The Timelord comes in. He has a huge potential as a man defender out on the floor, with the rare ability to block his own man's jumpshot; and he covers ground as though no time has passed (that's why they call him The Timelord).

Brad recently addressed the change in roster such that not all bigs are a three-point threat. He suggested that rolls, post-ups, and the dunker's spot are opportunities for bigs. So RWilliams, despite his lack of an outside shot (so far), could get minutes with another big who does have an outside shot.

To your third point... I don't want to dismiss arguments out of hand that are based on your interpretation of what happened to him in college, but you're really in the weeds here and it would help if you could say just what it is that he was unable to do on his college team that is relevant to his game on the Celtics.

Theis, I’m fine with in limited amounts at the 4 against certain opponents.  He’s comfortable taking the three and isn’t a pure center anyway. 

I'm not, and it's evident, I think, that the coaching staff is with me on this. Theis is a pretty good rim-protector, despite his size, but guarding out to the arc is a big challenge for him. Pretty much, the Celtics played Theis as the lone big, when he played the last two years.

As KG Living Legend suggests, he could be paired with a big who can guard out to the line - Robert Williams is an obvious candidate.

I'm pretty sure I don't know what you mean by "a pure center". Sounds like "can't guard 4's"?

I'll also raise a point contrary to KG Living Legend, but one that you did not mention: in his limited minutes last season, they played Timelord mostly as the lone big, just as they played Theis - and despite the fact that Theis is a floor-spacer.

Timelord as the lone big is an enticing prospect - super-quick, super-tough lineups with ball pressure and great rim protection.
'I was proud of Marcus Smart. He did a great job of keeping us together. He might not get credit for this game, but the pace that he played at, and his playcalling, some of the plays that he called were great. We obviously have to rely on him, so I’m definitely looking forward to Marcus leading this team in that role.' - Jaylen Brown, January 2021

Re: Poll: What big will surprise this year
« Reply #32 on: October 05, 2019, 02:32:42 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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I think Pourier will be that surprise sort of like how Theis was back in 2017-2018. He won't light up the stat sheet but he'll be solid in stretches and make us think, "dang, he can play". We felt this way about Theis too but unfortunately it seems the injuries affected him over the past year.

I think Timelord takes a step but I'd be stunned if he become like a legit everyday starter for us this season. I mean, I'd love to see it but realistically I don't think it'll happen this season.
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