Quote from: aefgogreen on December 23, 2025, 10:09:20 PM

The Celtics have surpassed just about everyone?s expectations and Joe deserves a great deal of credit for it. However, the true test will be in the postseason. This is where many of us have felt he?s fallen short.

Had a pretty nice post-season that year.  Could be argued that they won despite Joe in 2023.  Bug he appears to be an asset this year.

Something along these lines.

No longer allowing a team to draft in the top four two years in a row.

I see where they are coming from...basically the NBA, like a lot of other American sports with a closed league and draft system, has become a binary solution set for fans - either you're trying to win, or you're trying to tank. So there's usually about 6-7 teams with fans that think they can win, everyone else wants their team to tank. Look how many of us wanted the Celtics to tank for a draft pick, we joke about it with our tank thread 

It will never happen, but if they wanted to be serious about it, all they have to do is introduce a promotion-relegation system like they have in European soccer. The worst 3 teams in the league get relegated and the best 3 from the G-league get promoted. Boom, no more tanking 

It won't happen though. The NBA, like all US leagues, is a closed franchise league, valuable assets with revenues tied to ongoing participation. No owner would buy a team in a league where they might get relegated and have that affect their broadcasting money, gate revenue, etc. And we don't have that pyramid structure that European soccer teams have, where English soccer has 20 divisions leading up to the Premier League. Like Wrexham, the club that Rob McElhenney and Ryan Reynolds own, were in the 5th division when they were acquired and are now in the 2nd division (with only the Championship to get to before they can vie for promotion to the Premier League). Conversely, Leicester, who won the Premiership in a fairytale in 2015-16, were relegated in 2023, won promotion back to the Premier League in 2024, and were relegated again in 2025.

In a way, some of these owners that buy teams that never expect to win anything, they're being run as investments and cash cows, the owners probably could care less about lifting a banner, it's all about the Benjamins. And the fans just keep dreaming. If not for a championship, of being able to draft the next Wemby, or the next Cooper. Hope is a bigger drug than certainty 

Spurs beat the Thunder again. 130-110. Wemby only played 23 minutes.

Quote from: Moranis on December 23, 2025, 03:50:04 PM

Quote from: slamtheking on December 23, 2025, 01:07:54 PM

Quote from: Moranis on December 23, 2025, 12:33:32 PM

Quote from: slamtheking on December 23, 2025, 12:05:32 PM

Quote from: BitterJim on December 23, 2025, 11:19:41 AM

Quote from: Moranis on December 23, 2025, 10:30:29 AM

Drafts are not equal so I'm not a fan of any proposal which eliminates a team from winning multiple years.  And you often need multiple high level picks to truly complete.  Now I can see the merit of eliminating some protection tiers, but otherwise this is mostly just the haves trying to keep the have nots from becoming the haves. 

Also, 10 years ago or so I actually analyzed the top pick in the lottery era to illustrate the shear difference in draft quality. I looked at the #1 pick only and broke then down by near consensus #1 to more open and then rated the picks on how good they were. It might be worth doing again, but a good illustration is the 2000 draft.  Kenyon Martin was a near consensus #1 pick that year. He also ended up being the best player in that draft.  So a homerun for the Nets i e  their choice was basically made and it hit, yet Kenyon Martin wasn't a franchise player and was never going to be the best player on a title team.  Now imagine the Nets are restricted from high picks for several years because they got Martin.  Or worse, you get the 1st pick in 2001 where there isn't  a consensus #1 and Kwame Brown is the 1st pick and the best player is a guy from Spain that went 3rd (Pau) and the 2nd best player is a Frenchman that went 28th (Parker).  Not all drafts are 2003 with Lebron or even 2004 with Dwight i.e. where there is a consensus #1 that ends up as the best player in the draft and is a franchise player.  Or like 2003 after LeBron with Anthony, Bosh, and Wade all being top 5 picks (and all better than Kenyon Martin). 

Because of the shear difference in draft quality I don't think they should restrict teams from drafting high in multiple drafts.  Just too much variance and that will put an even greater focus on tanking in the presumed right seasons i.e. a draft like 2003.

It would be interesting to introduce the consecutive lottery limits while adding the option for teams that won the lottery to refuse their spot (i.e. if you win the lottery in a weak draft, you have the option to keep your previous spot, but remain eligible for next year's lottery). That would prevent some instances of a bad team losing out on a strong draft just because they won in a weak draft, but also would really encourage that team to tank the next year to make it worth it.

Ultimately, the answer is probably going back to the previous lottery odds, plus limits on protections (and maybe make some limits around how you finished the year before, like teams that made the playoffs in 2025 couldn't put top 5 protections on their 2026/2027 picks, but could do lottery protection, and could do top 5 protection on later picks). Or the wheel, but that has always felt a bit like a solution in search of a problem.

the weakness or strength of a particular draft class shouldn't matter.  Team that gets the top pick is still in a better position than every other team and there's no telling how that player will turn out. 

one way to address the protections teams put on their picks is to eliminate that as an option for all teams so that picks convey regardless (which will likely put a kibosh on those second rounders protected 1-55 that are included in a number of deals just to send something out in a trade) or make it so that if protections are retained, they cannot continue protected for a number of years to where they hit a point where they don't convey or convert to second rounders.  If a team protects a pick 1-14 for a future year, they cannot put further protections on it for following years.

of course the strength of the draft matters.

The simple reality is most teams in the lottery are simply bad teams.  No amount of changes is going to change that fact. They need more talent and restricting them from getting more talent is going to destroy any semblance of parity because those teams are never going to get better.

and who's to say whether a particular draft is good or bad?  there's always sure-fire players that end up busts and players that teams take a flyer on that turn out to be great. 

teams should get periodic cracks at the top pick, not a constant, yearly attempt to cash-in.  Philly's unashamed 'process' is a prime example of a team being a league disgrace for years trying to cash in and it still not paying off because the players they pick all had/have flaws even though a number of them were considered great, if not generational, talents.

No one says anything about the draft quality but putting your head in the sand and pretending all drafts are the same doesn't make sense either.  Year to year the players at the top are of significantly different quality.  Any system that doesn't account for that is inherently flawed.

I've heard the Sixers stuff before it is mostly garbage.  The Thunder have tanked worse than the Sixers twice in the last 20 seasons and no one seems to care about that.  But the Sixers are also a good example that not all drafts are created equal.  All those high picks and they ended up no further than the 2nd round (they also only had the 1st pick once and then traded up for a second one). Though that was mostly from terrible moves after the tank job as much as anything.

the quality of the players in each draft is different.  my point is I don't care that it is and that it shouldn't matter for teams that are trying to tank to get a top pick.  you can get one of those top picks in a certain timeframe before you have to sit it out for a short period.  even though they're sitting out getting a top 3-4 pick, they're still getting a high lotto pick.  I don't feel badly for them

It absolutely matters to teams and it will matter a whole lot more in the presumed good drafts (those don't always work out, but sometimes they do).  If you restrict teams from winning the lottery multiple seasons then far more teams are going to tank in what are perceived good drafts (like the 26 draft).  There would be 10+ teams tanking in a draft like this.  Even ones that had previously won because there are potentially 7 all star or better players in this draft (there are 3 that would be considered at #1 in many years).  The tanking would be insane because teams would try to tank in the better years like 26.  They would save their tank for a draft like this.   

At the end of the day, the amount of teams tanking (until the last few games), is significantly overblown every year.  There are 14 teams that aren't going to make the playoffs and many of them are just going to be bad.  It simply isn't going to work that teams are all 30 win type teams.  There are too many good teams that have to be balanced out with bad teams.  This year, injuries is a major issue.  That seems far more harmful to the quality of the product than anything else.  Lots and lots of players are out.