Author Topic: What if: Redo Celtics History  (Read 2492 times)

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Re: What if: Redo Celtics History
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2022, 07:40:54 PM »

Offline tenn_smoothie

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Uh Roy, Paul Silas left in free agency after Red would not pay him what he was requesting for his new contract in the summer of '76.
We had already lost Don Chaney to the ABA after the '74 title. I did not recall Silas being traded, but maybe he did "force" a trade for Rowe by not accepting Red's offer and I just don't remember that detail. Did Red not know what a bad act Curtis Rowe was ? You would think a player with an attitude like his would have been well known among league insiders.

Seems Red was a bit off his game in the 70's, losing Chaney and Silas to contract demands and then trading Paul Westphal. As much as I love Charlie Scott (he loved being a Celtic as well), I never understood the rationale for trading one shooting guard for another ? Did Red simply underestimate Westphal's ceiling and thought he would never be as talented as Scott ? Was there some difference in their playing styles that Red thought was significant ?
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Re: What if: Redo Celtics History
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2022, 07:50:32 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Uh Roy, Paul Silas left in free agency after Red would not pay him what he was requesting for his new contract in the summer of '76.
We had already lost Don Chaney to the ABA after the '74 title. I did not recall Silas being traded, but maybe he did "force" a trade for Rowe by not accepting Red's offer and I just don't remember that detail. Did Red not know what a bad act Curtis Rowe was ? You would think a player with an attitude like his would have been well known among league insiders.

Seems Red was a bit off his game in the 70's, losing Chaney and Silas to contract demands and then trading Paul Westphal. As much as I love Charlie Scott (he loved being a Celtic as well), I never understood the rationale for trading one shooting guard for another ? Did Red simply underestimate Westphal's ceiling and thought he would never be as talented as Scott ? Was there some difference in their playing styles that Red thought was significant ?

Yeah, he was traded.  Free agency rights were different back then.

October 20, 1976: As part of a 3-team trade, Curtis Rowe traded by the Detroit Pistons to the Boston Celtics; the Boston Celtics traded Paul Silas to the Denver Nuggets; and the Denver Nuggets traded Ralph Simpson to the Detroit Pistons.



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Re: What if: Redo Celtics History
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2022, 10:19:51 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Looking at the 80's, I will again do things that haven't been said.

82 - Fred Roberts 1st round, Mark Eaton after that
85 - AC Green 1st round, Spud Webb 3rd round, Mario Elie after that
89 - Tim Hardaway 1st round

Also another way to change 86 is if the C's had just taken Chuck Person instead of Bias.  I realize that wouldn't have happened, but even if you could undo Bias' death, there is no way to know what would have happened (maybe he has an OD later or maybe he gets hurt or maybe he just didn't become great).  With Person you know what type of player he became, and while not great, he had a long good career and probably could have helped the C's win championships in the late 80's.  I mean he was basically a 19/8/3.5 guy as a rookie. That may have been enough to get Boston by the Lakers in 87 as an example. 
I was finally wrong. Boston not only didn't win in 5, but didn't win at all.

Re: What if: Redo Celtics History
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2022, 11:31:18 PM »

Offline tenn_smoothie

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Uh Roy, Paul Silas left in free agency after Red would not pay him what he was requesting for his new contract in the summer of '76.
We had already lost Don Chaney to the ABA after the '74 title. I did not recall Silas being traded, but maybe he did "force" a trade for Rowe by not accepting Red's offer and I just don't remember that detail. Did Red not know what a bad act Curtis Rowe was ? You would think a player with an attitude like his would have been well known among league insiders.

Seems Red was a bit off his game in the 70's, losing Chaney and Silas to contract demands and then trading Paul Westphal. As much as I love Charlie Scott (he loved being a Celtic as well), I never understood the rationale for trading one shooting guard for another ? Did Red simply underestimate Westphal's ceiling and thought he would never be as talented as Scott ? Was there some difference in their playing styles that Red thought was significant ?

Yeah, he was traded.  Free agency rights were different back then.

October 20, 1976: As part of a 3-team trade, Curtis Rowe traded by the Detroit Pistons to the Boston Celtics; the Boston Celtics traded Paul Silas to the Denver Nuggets; and the Denver Nuggets traded Ralph Simpson to the Detroit Pistons.

I do remember a teammate (Cowens maybe) was quoted as saying, "All he did was win us two titles in three years, Pay him what he wants." I understand free agency was a different animal then, but I do remember the term being used in some way at that time, but again, he probably essentially forced the trade. Too bad, he was the missing ingredient in 1973 that got that group over the hump to win titles.

What I don't remember is how we acquired Rowe's running buddy, Sidney Wicks, who was very talented, but also with a horrible attitude. No wonder Cowens took a break from the team that season.

Maybe someone could shed light on another Rowe/Wicks story, the one briefly mentioned by Larry Bird in one of the ESPN docs. Bird talked about showing up the first day of camp his rookie year and looking forward to battling the veterans during practice, then said, "Wicks and Rowe were cut the first day or first week" ??? Bill Fitch was the new coach and a driven taskmaster. Still, that sounds unlikely, if for no other reason than contract complications. Anyone know what happened during pre-season camp in 1979 with Wicks & Rowe ? Bird talked about Max being the only forward left from the previous season after that first day.
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Re: What if: Redo Celtics History
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2022, 12:40:22 AM »

Offline tenn_smoothie

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Wow Roy, I am with your choices almost exactly ........

I like the idea of not trading Max for Walton, tough choice there because that '86 team was to my mind, the best of all time and I've been following the NBA since the late 60's. But I, like you, think they would have won in '86 anyway, with a healthy Cedric Maxwell and been healthier and deeper going forward. Also, if Max had been full speed in '85, they may well have won that series. People forget that and Maxwell was big in the 1984 finals. All that wear and tear caught up with us in '87.

I would definitely add in there somewhere that we never hire Rick Pitino, who caused further damage to the franchise still recovering from the loss of Bias and Lewis a decade earlier. His disrespect to Red made him all the more arrogant and vile.

A question - being down here in the south, I don't get the day to day details fans who live closer to Boston are privy to.
I saw recently where when Max was traded, he didn't hear one word from any teammate on his way out of Boston. No hey, good luck or hey, sorry we are losing you, nothing. That's reprehensible to me. Max was a huge part of the 80's Celtics. Not sure we win either in '81 or '84 without him. He has always been my second favorite Celtic behind Cowens - just played the game beautifully with a unique style.  So ..... Exactly how bad was the dispute between Max and Red and his teammates regarding his slow knee recovery ?
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Re: What if: Redo Celtics History
« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2022, 12:00:34 PM »

Offline bdm860

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For those wanting to draft McGrady in '97,  I don't think that works out unless you change other things too.

He'd have been playing for Pitino.  Definitely not a player friendly coach.

He'd be playing with/behind Walker and Pierce (assuming C's still grab Pierce in '98 since McGrady wasn't helping win games as a rookie).

I think McGrady still leaves for Orlando in '00.

Same thing if the C's draft Duncan in '97.  By all accounts he almost signed with Orlando too in '00.  If he almost left a championship team coached by Pop, do we really think the C's and Pitino would be able to keep him?

Now what if C's draft both Duncan and McGrady in  '97, and they both leave for Orlando in '00, ha what a disaster that would be.  Maybe setting the C's up to draft LeBron in '03 though...

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