Manny being Manipulated

[Redz]

Not paying Pedro was the right thing, not paying Damon was the right thing.  The Sox front office has a history of turning the page...and this will end up the correct move in hindsight.

But we are paying Manny! We're paying his Dodger salary. No one's saying we should have extended him for big bucks and several years this off season. We're talking about this August, September, and October. Would you rather pay for Manny to be on the Sox or pay for him to be on the Dodgers?

Clearly the Red Sox management would prefer to pay him play elsewhere and his former teammates are glad he's gone.

I guess they could have just told Manny to go home and still paid him, but I don't think Pittsburgh was going to let Bay go for just Moss & Hansen

[threzd]

Not paying Pedro was the right thing, not paying Damon was the right thing.  The Sox front office has a history of turning the page...and this will end up the correct move in hindsight.

But we are paying Manny! We're paying his Dodger salary. No one's saying we should have extended him for big bucks and several years this off season. We're talking about this August, September, and October. Would you rather pay for Manny to be on the Sox or pay for him to be on the Dodgers?

The way he was acting?  I'd rather have Jason Bay, rather than Manny + $9 million.

I was pretty busy this year so I didn't really follow baseball all too carefully, but to me it seemed just like every other year - hasn't Manny requested a trade every year? Hasn't he sulked and acted immaturely before? I mean, it's not like these were novel things..and after he was done complaining, after the trade deadline, he'd come out all smiles and love Boston, and we'd all chalk it up to Manny being Manny. What was (if there was any) the difference this year?

[Roy Hobbs]

Not paying Pedro was the right thing, not paying Damon was the right thing.  The Sox front office has a history of turning the page...and this will end up the correct move in hindsight.

But we are paying Manny! We're paying his Dodger salary. No one's saying we should have extended him for big bucks and several years this off season. We're talking about this August, September, and October. Would you rather pay for Manny to be on the Sox or pay for him to be on the Dodgers?

The way he was acting?  I'd rather have Jason Bay, rather than Manny + $9 million.

I was pretty busy this year so I didn't really follow baseball all too carefully, but to me it seemed just like every other year - hasn't Manny requested a trade every year? Hasn't he sulked and acted immaturely before? I mean, it's not like these were novel things..and after he was done complaining, after the trade deadline, he'd come out all smiles and love Boston, and we'd all chalk it up to Manny being Manny. What was (if there was any) the difference this year?

This year, Manny's teammates wanted him gone.

Also, prior to this year, he hadn't pushed down any 64 year old team employees or intentionally struck out in any high leverage situations.  However, he *did* milk injuries previously, although not in the middle of a pennant race.

Manny was a disgrace.  I argued for years with my dad whether he's the type of player you should root for, and this year, I finally came around to my father's position:  Manny is a punk.  I thank him for the two world titles, but he wore out his welcome.

[Raygus]

No one put a gun to manny's head to sign with the sox but he did. And i remember reading that he told pedro after the 1st freaking month he couldn't take it in Boston.

whatever the case manny had an extremely good career as a redsox cept the last two years where he was taking it easy imo. (if he played the way he did in the 2nd half for the dodgers all eyar long he could have been easily won a triple crown).

I feel bad for dodger fans cuz near the end of his contract with them he will complain again and prob get traded somewhere else.

Manny ultimately belongs in the AL as a dh if he wants to have a long career

The guy is a great player but definitely has multiple personalities

he will not get traded as he will be signed by the yankees this offseason.

and he's played 14 years at a ridiculously high level. he's never been the prettiest outfielder, but he typically gets the job done. what is it about a 37 year old dude batting over .370 with 16 home runs in the last 2 months that suggests he's going to stop being productive unless he becomes a DH?

not sure how i feel about this whole deal though. i think simmons is spot on - if nothing else than to point out that Manny's been doing what he did this season every year. what made things worse this year was that scott boras was in his dome. all the outrage on behalf of the boston media is absurd. manny is what he is and always will be - and that's one of the 3 best right handed hitters to ever play the game of baseball. i hope he wears a Boston hat in the HoF.

[Roy Hobbs]

Not paying Pedro was the right thing, not paying Damon was the right thing.  The Sox front office has a history of turning the page...and this will end up the correct move in hindsight.

But we are paying Manny! We're paying his Dodger salary. No one's saying we should have extended him for big bucks and several years this off season. We're talking about this August, September, and October. Would you rather pay for Manny to be on the Sox or pay for him to be on the Dodgers?

The way he was acting?  I'd rather have Jason Bay, rather than Manny + $9 million.

I'd rather have Bay AND Manny than just Bay and paying Manny to be on the Dodgers. I'd have no problem suspending Manny until he wanted to be a good teammate. Manny suspended is also better than Manny on the Dodgers. But reality is that it was in Manny's benefit to play well this Fall, so i think he would have come around. If he didn't then he could have stayed at home.

How would we have Manny and Bay?  Let's assume that the Sox wanted to add a blue chip prospect to get Bay.  Where do you play him, on a team that would have had Manny, Drew, Crisp, and Jacoby?  You can't DH Manny, because of Papi.  No, it would have been silly to get Bay, and keep Manny.

I'd rather have Bay than Manny, and obviously, so would the Sox players, and so would Sox management.  The trade has worked out very well for them, and I doubt very much that they have any regrets.

[johnnyrondo]

Not paying Pedro was the right thing, not paying Damon was the right thing.  The Sox front office has a history of turning the page...and this will end up the correct move in hindsight.

But we are paying Manny! We're paying his Dodger salary. No one's saying we should have extended him for big bucks and several years this off season. We're talking about this August, September, and October. Would you rather pay for Manny to be on the Sox or pay for him to be on the Dodgers?

The way he was acting?  I'd rather have Jason Bay, rather than Manny + $9 million.

I'd rather have Bay AND Manny than just Bay and paying Manny to be on the Dodgers. I'd have no problem suspending Manny until he wanted to be a good teammate. Manny suspended is also better than Manny on the Dodgers. But reality is that it was in Manny's benefit to play well this Fall, so i think he would have come around. If he didn't then he could have stayed at home.

How would we have Manny and Bay?  Let's assume that the Sox wanted to add a blue chip prospect to get Bay.  Where do you play him, on a team that would have had Manny, Drew, Crisp, and Jacoby?  You can't DH Manny, because of Papi.  No, it would have been silly to get Bay, and keep Manny.

I'd rather have Bay than Manny, and obviously, so would the Sox players, and so would Sox management.  The trade has worked out very well for them, and I doubt very much that they have any regrets.

Willie McGee? Where would we play him?
I believe I explained on page two how they would have both? Based on the injuries to drew, papi and Lowell, there would have been playing time for everyone. In fact the sox tried to get both Bay and Giles (settled for Bay and kotsay). If Manny rights his ship, great. bay and manny is greater than bay and giles or bay and kotsay. If he doesn't, then suspend him and your actually punishing him and not helping the Dodgers. my belief is that he'd do like 2005 post deadline and act like he loved Boston again and we'd have the most feared hitter in our dugout, instead of the dodgers.

I'm not sure Laroche is a blue chip prospect, but whatever prospect we'd add would be offset by the two picks we'd get when Manny became a type A free agent.

Was Manny acting like a baby? Yup. Is he a jerk? Very possibly. Did the sox do themselves no favors by bashing him up until the trade deadline, so they had to settle for 25 cents on the dollar (if that)? Most definitely. Manny was hitting close to 400 for July. Very similar to nomar, who was hitting well the July we traded him, but based on Boston's desire to bash their superstars on the way out, we actually had to add a prospect to move Nomar). The Sox really should have suspended Manny a long time ago if they wanted to take a stand. they didn't. they passed on trades to move him before as well. the Sox are not a choir. They've signed jerks (David Wells), domestic abusers (Lugo and cordero), unfaithful husbands (Damon and Boggs), mercenaries (Foulke, Drew and Renteria), steroid users (Canseco and Jeremy Giambi). The list can go on and on. Point is Manny is not the only jerk to wear the Sox uniform. If you are going to trade him, get some value for him. Not every player on the Sox is going to be a feel good story like Lester. Sox misplayed the Manny situation and I'd sure rather have Manny up in the WS batting for the Sox then on the dodgers facing us.

[Sweet17]

As Simmons explained - the Sox had to bash Manny. They couldn't very well bash Boras as he is a very powerful agent. Doesn't he represent Bay as well? <g> That was Simmons best work - as far as I am concerned. So when your shipping out a popular player - they bash him to lesson the shock. You don't have to love it - but its pretty effective. The fans were cheering for Bay. It's not like Manny's blameless he was dogging it. He evidently felt disrespected (no doubt fueled by Boras)..

As a side note I hate this line of reasoning you see on the boards. It's  the so and so makes a crap load of money so he should be happy no matter how bad he thinks the situation is.

The money they are getting paid doesn't really matter because its par for the industry they are in. It ends up as just a number and it doesn't really enter into a guys thinking. For example - Randy Moss - bad guy in that dysfunctional Oakland enviroment and a captain with the Patriots (voted by the players).

It's really not any different that it as at our workplace. if your boss is an **** you probably want to quit and leave. The fact that you make 10x more money or 20x then the McDonald's guy. Your not going to put up with what you consider a bad enviroment and just suck it up. The pay you get is par for what you do.

Pete

[ReadyFor17]

Not paying Pedro was the right thing, not paying Damon was the right thing.  The Sox front office has a history of turning the page...and this will end up the correct move in hindsight.

But we are paying Manny! We're paying his Dodger salary. No one's saying we should have extended him for big bucks and several years this off season. We're talking about this August, September, and October. Would you rather pay for Manny to be on the Sox or pay for him to be on the Dodgers?

The way he was acting?  I'd rather have Jason Bay, rather than Manny + $9 million.

I'd rather have Bay AND Manny than just Bay and paying Manny to be on the Dodgers. I'd have no problem suspending Manny until he wanted to be a good teammate. Manny suspended is also better than Manny on the Dodgers. But reality is that it was in Manny's benefit to play well this Fall, so i think he would have come around. If he didn't then he could have stayed at home.

How would we have Manny and Bay?  Let's assume that the Sox wanted to add a blue chip prospect to get Bay.  Where do you play him, on a team that would have had Manny, Drew, Crisp, and Jacoby?  You can't DH Manny, because of Papi.  No, it would have been silly to get Bay, and keep Manny.

I'd rather have Bay than Manny, and obviously, so would the Sox players, and so would Sox management.  The trade has worked out very well for them, and I doubt very much that they have any regrets.

they passed on trades to move him before as well. the Sox are not a choir. They've signed jerks (David Wells), domestic abusers (Lugo and cordero), unfaithful husbands (Damon and Boggs), mercenaries (Foulke, Drew and Renteria), steroid users (Canseco and Jeremy Giambi). The list can go on and on. Point is Manny is not the only jerk to wear the Sox uniform. If you are going to trade him, get some value for him. Not every player on the Sox is going to be a feel good story like Lester. Sox misplayed the Manny situation and I'd sure rather have Manny up in the WS batting for the Sox then on the dodgers facing us.

One of the trades they passed on included receiving Mike Cameron and Aubrey Huff (yes he had a career year this year but it is nowhere near his true level of performance) and another was the failed A-Rod trade. If Jason Bay isn't "some value" then I don't know what is. Theo should win GM of the year for getting a player as good as Bay in what looked like a no-win situation.

[johnnyrondo]

One of the trades they passed on included receiving Mike Cameron and Aubrey Huff (yes he had a career year this year but it is nowhere near his true level of performance) and another was the failed A-Rod trade. If Jason Bay isn't "some value" then I don't know what is. Theo should win GM of the year for getting a player as good as Bay in what looked like a no-win situation.

The trade wasn't Manny for Bay. They traded Manny, 7 million dollars, Brandon Moss, and Hanson to get Bay. The Manny part of the trade with the Dodgers was:

Dodgers get: Manny Ramirez and 7 million dollars (Dodgers also get 2 high draft picks when Manny declines arbitration)

Dodgers give up: Laroche and lower minor leaguer

 
So essentially we traded Manny, Hanson, Moss, 7 million dollars and 2 high draft picks for Laroche and a B prospect.

If as you state we traded Manny and received Bay, that would be a different story, but your forgetting Moss, Hanson, and the 7 million dollars.

Theo might win GM of the year, but not for trading Manny. The best thing that happened to Theo was that Minny turned down Lester(a Duquette draft pick who Theo has tried to trade a few times), Coco, Masterson, and Lowrie for Santana. Theo is doing pretty well with the draft and player development I must say. Trades are not really his (joe)forte.

[ReadyFor17]

One of the trades they passed on included receiving Mike Cameron and Aubrey Huff (yes he had a career year this year but it is nowhere near his true level of performance) and another was the failed A-Rod trade. If Jason Bay isn't "some value" then I don't know what is. Theo should win GM of the year for getting a player as good as Bay in what looked like a no-win situation.

The trade wasn't Manny for Bay. They traded Manny, 7 million dollars, Brandon Moss, and Hanson to get Bay. The Manny part of the trade with the Dodgers was:

Dodgers get: Manny Ramirez and 7 million dollars (Dodgers also get 2 high draft picks when Manny declines arbitration)

Dodgers give up: Laroche and lower minor leaguer

 
So essentially we traded Manny, Hanson, Moss, 7 million dollars and 2 high draft picks for Laroche and a B prospect.

If as you state we traded Manny and received Bay, that would be a different story, but your forgetting Moss, Hanson, and the 7 million dollars.

I'm not going to argue semantics here. In one deal they gave up Manny and got Jason Bay to replace him. If people think giving up Moss, Hansen and $7 million in the trade is really that big a deal I don't know what to tell you. Hansen was worthless and has proved it; Moss didn't have a spot on this team and proved that he's definitely not worth a starting spot and he was the 5th OF at best; $7 million? Who cares the Red Sox are made of money if they need to throw some in to make sure a deal gets done I would much rather they do it and not be cheap.

Moss, Hansen and the money are footnotes that I have already forgotten. The Sox gave up one thing of value and received one thing of comparable value in return.

[Roy Hobbs]

The trade wasn't Manny for Bay. They traded Manny, 7 million dollars, Brandon Moss, and Hanson to get Bay. The Manny part of the trade with the Dodgers was:

Dodgers get: Manny Ramirez and 7 million dollars (Dodgers also get 2 high draft picks when Manny declines arbitration)

Dodgers give up: Laroche and lower minor leaguer

 
So essentially we traded Manny, Hanson, Moss, 7 million dollars and 2 high draft picks for Laroche and a B prospect.

Well, no, that's not right at all.  If you want to say we traded Manny + $7 million for Laroche and a prospect, fine.  But how do you put Hansen and Moss into the Dodgers side of the trade?  If they're included, don't you sort of have to add in Bay?

As for the compensation picks, we'll get those back in a year if Bay walks.  The following year is supposed to be a *significantly* better draft, so the Sox probably win that end of things.  Or, of course, they could just keep an all-star caliber player and a good teammate, who wouldn't be here if Manny wasn't traded.

I'm not going to argue semantics here. In one deal they gave up Manny and got Jason Bay to replace him. If people think giving up Moss, Hansen and $7 million in the trade is really that big a deal I don't know what to tell you. Hansen was worthless and has proved it; Moss didn't have a spot on this team and proved that he's definitely not worth a starting spot and he was the 5th OF at best; $7 million? Who cares the Red Sox are made of money if they need to throw some in to make sure a deal gets done I would much rather they do it and not be cheap.

Moss, Hansen and the money are footnotes that I have already forgotten. The Sox gave up one thing of value and received one thing of comparable value in return.

Good post.  Yes, Hansen and Moss are still young, but they're nobody to cry too much about.  Here are their numbers with Pittsburgh:

Moss: 45 games, .222 avg, .288 OBP, 6 HR, 23 RBI, 45 Ks, .424 SLG, .712 OPS
Hansen: 15.2 innings, 14 runs, 13 ER, 20 BB, 7 Ks, 1 win, 4 losses, 7.47 ERA

Not exactly world beaters.

[ThreadCrasher]

Not paying Pedro was the right thing, not paying Damon was the right thing.  The Sox front office has a history of turning the page...and this will end up the correct move in hindsight.

But we are paying Manny! We're paying his Dodger salary. No one's saying we should have extended him for big bucks and several years this off season. We're talking about this August, September, and October. Would you rather pay for Manny to be on the Sox or pay for him to be on the Dodgers?

The way he was acting?  I'd rather have Jason Bay, rather than Manny + $9 million.

I'd rather have Bay AND Manny than just Bay and paying Manny to be on the Dodgers. I'd have no problem suspending Manny until he wanted to be a good teammate. Manny suspended is also better than Manny on the Dodgers. But reality is that it was in Manny's benefit to play well this Fall, so i think he would have come around. If he didn't then he could have stayed at home.

Reality and Manny don't always go together...we can agree on that.  And according to reports, not just this article by Simmons, the front office was split.  The split wasn't on his talent, that is obvious to everyone.  Rather on whether he would calm down for his own benefit or not...and it is arguable whether your point is correct that he would have done it for his own benefit...and the powers that be decided that the risk was too much.

As far as having Manny AND Bay, the Sox would have had to give up better prospects...and that is not the plan.  Develop from within....we shouldn't be dealing away prospects for a nominal increase.  Also, not trading Manny also means we have to give up prospects or pay big money for a FA to replace him next season.  By trading him now, we got some value...good value I might add, given the circumstance.

We are in the playoffs, we have great pitching depth, we have cash to spend this off-season...

This is why everyone hates us...ain't it great.

[ThreadCrasher]

One of the trades they passed on included receiving Mike Cameron and Aubrey Huff (yes he had a career year this year but it is nowhere near his true level of performance) and another was the failed A-Rod trade. If Jason Bay isn't "some value" then I don't know what is. Theo should win GM of the year for getting a player as good as Bay in what looked like a no-win situation.

The trade wasn't Manny for Bay. They traded Manny, 7 million dollars, Brandon Moss, and Hanson to get Bay. The Manny part of the trade with the Dodgers was:

Dodgers get: Manny Ramirez and 7 million dollars (Dodgers also get 2 high draft picks when Manny declines arbitration)

Dodgers give up: Laroche and lower minor leaguer

 
So essentially we traded Manny, Hanson, Moss, 7 million dollars and 2 high draft picks for Laroche and a B prospect.

If as you state we traded Manny and received Bay, that would be a different story, but your forgetting Moss, Hanson, and the 7 million dollars.

Theo might win GM of the year, but not for trading Manny. The best thing that happened to Theo was that Minny turned down Lester(a Duquette draft pick who Theo has tried to trade a few times), Coco, Masterson, and Lowrie for Santana. Theo is doing pretty well with the draft and player development I must say. Trades are not really his (joe)forte.

It was Manny for Bay, as far as impact goes.  Hansen was out of options and was not going to be kept on the roster next year (with the emergence of MDC and Masterson, less likely)  So he was gone at seasons end, = no loss.  Moss is a nice player, but at best a fifth outfielder (Bay/Manny, Drew, Ellsbury, Crisp)...how much value does a fifth outfielder have to a team...= no loss.  7 million dollars is not mine and doesn't impact the team or moves the team can make which = no loss.

As far as the 2 compensation picks, the Sox essentially delayed the picks, cause they will get them next season if Bay signs elsewhere...since I don't know the depth of either of those drafts it could be a loss or a gain, but either way it is nominal.

The trade got us to the playoffs and gives us tons of flexibility.

[Birdbrain]

As a side note I hate this line of reasoning you see on the boards. It's  the so and so makes a crap load of money so he should be happy no matter how bad he thinks the situation is.
 

Pete

No in fact they are very different.  Sorry to break it to you but, having money should allow a person to be a bit more humble.  At least not a complete idiot.  This is Multi-Million dollar BS.

If Manny couldn't hit you and everyone else wouldn't care if he stayed or not.  There are several stars bigger than 'Manny' in Boston (see all the C's stars) that prove you can be both a great teammate while getting paid a boatload of money.  I'm not even a Red Sox fan and I applaud the organization for FINALLY getting rid of him.  I think they've already proven that it was the right move.

[jimmyt]

The bottom line is the Sox are paying Manny to tear it up for the Dodgers. I can't wait to see Manny and the Dodgers come to Boston in the World Series and win, essentially having the Sox pay for it to happen. Think about it, the Sox will be paying Manny to beat us in the World Series. Its ridiculous.

I hope it doesnt happen, but its a possibility. If the sox get eliminated, I'm defintely rooting for Manny, Nomar, and Lowe to get a ring.

Shame on the Sox for allowing the Manny situation to get that far out of hand.