Author Topic: The idea of resigning Rozier and pencil him back as starter  (Read 2766 times)

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Re: The idea of resigning Rozier and pencil him back as starter
« Reply #105 on: May 14, 2019, 12:54:21 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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he is an awful vetsion of Kyrie .....that can't shoot worth a lick,  hate to pass ,  and rarely plays lockdown defense at this point.

do you hate us that bad ?

No, he doesn't hate Boston.  He hates the current situation and dynamic between the team.  Rozier's desire to stay in Boston is entirely dependent upon what happens with Kyrie.  He'll be fine if the team matches a contract offer and allows him to be the starting point guard.

 
Disagree with this slightly. Yes, if Kyrie is back, Rozier will leave but I think it's more that Terry thinks that without Kyrie his role would expand to that of a starter with him getting "his". But, just because Boston brings him back, especially if the team matches an offer,  doesn't mean Rozier will start, get the ball as much as he wants and wouldn't still be a disgruntled presence in the locker room. I firmly believe without Kyrie Boston's starting back court will be Smart and Brown. Not sure Rozier would like that.

Re: The idea of resigning Rozier and pencil him back as starter
« Reply #106 on: May 14, 2019, 01:00:51 PM »

Offline Silky

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“We should run it back with Rozier instead of Kyrie next year!””

Rozier on First Take this morning: On @FirstTake, Terry Rozier expressed little interest in returning to the Celtics if they bring back the same team next year: “I might have to go. I put up with a lot this year, so I said what I said after the season. I think we all know I’m not trying to step into that again.”

http://twitter.com/BDCCeltics/status/1128318761612849152

“Terry Rozier has made it pretty clear today he doesn't want to be back with the Celtics, especially if they run back a lot of the same roster.

It's understandable, but it's not a great look to be this public about things. Just handle your business without all the statements.”

http://twitter.com/KeithSmithNBA/status/1128319525651451904

This dude is a dumb and selfish player who has all along thought of himself over the team. Go rot in Phoenix for all I care, Rozier, you’re not the type of character we need in Boston, ya hack.

The good thing about all this dumb talk by Rozier is (a) it’s making it more and more likely that he doesn’t wear Celtics green next year, and (b) it’s just hurting his market this summer, as other teams are not going to look at these outbursts favorably.

Also continued to throw Kyrie under the bus in the interview.

This was Danny’s one big mistake from this year. He should’ve traded him in the summer or at the very least at the deadline when it was clear Rozier had no intention of trying to be a star in his role off the bench.

Agreed.

Alot of people were very puzzled but not moving him, It was obvious sitting on a couch, it had to be obvious to someone like Danny.

But then again, perhaps he was offering him but no one bit.

Either way, it was a squandered asset.
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Re: The idea of resigning Rozier and pencil him back as starter
« Reply #107 on: May 14, 2019, 01:23:13 PM »

Offline Silky

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Probably the most realistic scenario. Not sure what others are saying about not passing? He doesn't dominate the ball as much as Kyrie (not many do), the ball always moves better when he's on the court because of this.

False


https://stats.nba.com/players/passing/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*Bos&sort=PASSES_MADE&dir=1

This stat is pretty useless as it is a per game stat. Kyrie actually passes less per minute than Rozier does, which invalidates your point.

Quote
In relation to usage, among players that had at least 100 minutes of action, terry had the 3rd highest usage, despite bad passing numbers, and one of the worst efficiencies of the entire team

This also doesn't mean what you think it means. Terry Rozier is a point guard. Look at Terry Rozier next to other point guards. If you took all the players in the NBA who are under 6'7, played at least 15 mpg, and appeared in at least 40 games this year, do you know where Terry Rozier ranks?

106th. Slightly ahead of Luke Kennard and slightly behind Norman Powell. Behind guys like Shea Gilgeous-Alexander, Jeff Teague, Malcolm Brogdon.

Kyrie Irving meanwhile (and I'm not saying this is good or bad) has the 11th highest usage rate of those 228 available players from 18-19.

Quote
Looking at league wide numbers Kyrie is ahead of Paul and Harden for passes made.

While Rozier comes in at 70th in the league behind such passing geniuses as Gobert, Capella, Jabari parker, Danillo Gallinari, Booker, Collins, Mudiay

To show you how insane this stat is for the context you're using, you're representing Rozier as a bad passer because he's 70th league-wide in passes made.

By that same standard, Blake Griffin is a better facilitator than Kyrie because he makes 10 more passes per game.

I am looking at only the team.

Terry ranks the third highest usage on the team. that is fact.
Despite his lower passing rates, his lower assist%, his lower second assist rates, his terrible, one of the bottom of the team, offensive efficiency, he still had the 3rd highest usages on the team.

Quantifying that against the rest of the league does nothing but try to move the goalposts.

Terry did nothing to deserve the 10th man usage rate, but he got the 3rd highest. More than Hayward, more than Horford (both vastly superior offensive players and playmakers), more than Smart (starter) more than Brown (starter)

and he wants more.....



Griffin was a very willing passer this season, I see no issue in claiming that Griffin was a more WILLING thank Kyrie.

And that is what that statistic was showing, willingness to pass.

Everyone and their moms knew that Kyrie needed to be a more willing passer, and at times he made big strides in that department this past season. Terry, for a PG with the 3rd highest usage on the team, was the opposite. by a mile.


On on the passes per minute, you are not taking everything into consideration there either.

Kyrie as a pass/assist ratio of 13.5. Highest on the team
Terrys is 8th on the team at 7.3

Add that to Kyrie having higher potential assists, higher secondary assists, higher assist points created, higher assist adjusted numbers.

but year.

per minute terry makes 0.2 passes more.  wow.  I can also claim that extra minute per minute stat increase is from him rebound hunting on the defensive end.
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Re: The idea of resigning Rozier and pencil him back as starter
« Reply #108 on: May 14, 2019, 01:24:25 PM »

Offline Silky

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Probably the most realistic scenario. Not sure what others are saying about not passing? He doesn't dominate the ball as much as Kyrie (not many do), the ball always moves better when he's on the court because of this.

False


https://stats.nba.com/players/passing/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*Bos&sort=PASSES_MADE&dir=1

This stat is pretty useless as it is a per game stat. Kyrie actually passes less per minute than Rozier does, which invalidates your point.

Quote
In relation to usage, among players that had at least 100 minutes of action, terry had the 3rd highest usage, despite bad passing numbers, and one of the worst efficiencies of the entire team

This also doesn't mean what you think it means. Terry Rozier is a point guard. Look at Terry Rozier next to other point guards. If you took all the players in the NBA who are under 6'7, played at least 15 mpg, and appeared in at least 40 games this year, do you know where Terry Rozier ranks?

106th. Slightly ahead of Luke Kennard and slightly behind Norman Powell. Behind guys like Shea Gilgeous-Alexander, Jeff Teague, Malcolm Brogdon.

Kyrie Irving meanwhile (and I'm not saying this is good or bad) has the 11th highest usage rate of those 228 available players from 18-19.

Quote
Looking at league wide numbers Kyrie is ahead of Paul and Harden for passes made.

While Rozier comes in at 70th in the league behind such passing geniuses as Gobert, Capella, Jabari parker, Danillo Gallinari, Booker, Collins, Mudiay

To show you how insane this stat is for the context you're using, you're representing Rozier as a bad passer because he's 70th league-wide in passes made.

By that same standard, Blake Griffin is a better facilitator than Kyrie because he makes 10 more passes per game.

That last stat tells the whole story.  Game over, man

And I absolutely love the fact a "stat" buries all the Kyrie stat-lovers

No, actually it doesnt at all.

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Re: The idea of resigning Rozier and pencil him back as starter
« Reply #109 on: May 14, 2019, 01:31:15 PM »

Offline Green-18

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he is an awful vetsion of Kyrie .....that can't shoot worth a lick,  hate to pass ,  and rarely plays lockdown defense at this point.

do you hate us that bad ?

No, he doesn't hate Boston.  He hates the current situation and dynamic between the team.  Rozier's desire to stay in Boston is entirely dependent upon what happens with Kyrie.  He'll be fine if the team matches a contract offer and allows him to be the starting point guard.

 
Disagree with this slightly. Yes, if Kyrie is back, Rozier will leave but I think it's more that Terry thinks that without Kyrie his role would expand to that of a starter with him getting "his". But, just because Boston brings him back, especially if the team matches an offer,  doesn't mean Rozier will start, get the ball as much as he wants and wouldn't still be a disgruntled presence in the locker room. I firmly believe without Kyrie Boston's starting back court will be Smart and Brown. Not sure Rozier would like that.

That's why I mentioned they would need to bring him back in a starting role.  I expect Ainge to be very transparent about the situation if they match an offer sheet.  When it comes to getting "his", I think Rozier would be fine with his usual 15, 5, and 5 stat line, especially when he be concerned about his contract anymore.

Re: The idea of resigning Rozier and pencil him back as starter
« Reply #110 on: May 14, 2019, 01:48:06 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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he is an awful vetsion of Kyrie .....that can't shoot worth a lick,  hate to pass ,  and rarely plays lockdown defense at this point.

do you hate us that bad ?

No, he doesn't hate Boston.  He hates the current situation and dynamic between the team.  Rozier's desire to stay in Boston is entirely dependent upon what happens with Kyrie.  He'll be fine if the team matches a contract offer and allows him to be the starting point guard.

 
Disagree with this slightly. Yes, if Kyrie is back, Rozier will leave but I think it's more that Terry thinks that without Kyrie his role would expand to that of a starter with him getting "his". But, just because Boston brings him back, especially if the team matches an offer,  doesn't mean Rozier will start, get the ball as much as he wants and wouldn't still be a disgruntled presence in the locker room. I firmly believe without Kyrie Boston's starting back court will be Smart and Brown. Not sure Rozier would like that.

That's why I mentioned they would need to bring him back in a starting role.  I expect Ainge to be very transparent about the situation if they match an offer sheet.  When it comes to getting "his", I think Rozier would be fine with his usual 15, 5, and 5 stat line, especially when he be concerned about his contract anymore.
Not sure Ainge would commit to giving Terry a starting role as an incentive to re-sign. Ainge has said many, many times that who plays and who doesn't and who starts and who doesn't is completely in Stevens' hands and I don't see Steven's committing to that. No smart coach would when discussing a role player and not a star.

Re: The idea of resigning Rozier and pencil him back as starter
« Reply #111 on: May 14, 2019, 02:20:08 PM »

Offline TA9

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This whole situation reminds me of Reggie Jackson. Jackson made a breakthrough in the NBA after Westbrook went down with an injury. When Westbrook returned, Jackson thought he was too good for a backup position and demanded a trade. In my opinion, Jackson isn't a good starting PG, hence I wouldn't want a player similar to him *cough* Rozier *cough* as our starting PG.

I'd say we let Rozier leave in FA and either draft a young PG or re-sign Isaiah Thomas.
Jack of all trades, master of none.

Re: The idea of resigning Rozier and pencil him back as starter
« Reply #112 on: May 14, 2019, 02:22:42 PM »

Offline Birdman

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Isaiah might be damage goods..maybe a cheap one year deal
C/PF-Horford, Baynes, Noel, Theis, Morris,
SF/SG- Tatum, Brown, Hayward, Smart, Semi, Clark
PG- Irving, Rozier, Larkin

Re: The idea of resigning Rozier and pencil him back as starter
« Reply #113 on: May 14, 2019, 02:33:46 PM »

Offline Silky

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Bye Bye Rozier, Hello Patrick Beverly.

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Re: The idea of resigning Rozier and pencil him back as starter
« Reply #114 on: May 14, 2019, 04:05:07 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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Probably the most realistic scenario. Not sure what others are saying about not passing? He doesn't dominate the ball as much as Kyrie (not many do), the ball always moves better when he's on the court because of this.

False


https://stats.nba.com/players/passing/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*Bos&sort=PASSES_MADE&dir=1

This stat is pretty useless as it is a per game stat. Kyrie actually passes less per minute than Rozier does, which invalidates your point.

Quote
In relation to usage, among players that had at least 100 minutes of action, terry had the 3rd highest usage, despite bad passing numbers, and one of the worst efficiencies of the entire team

This also doesn't mean what you think it means. Terry Rozier is a point guard. Look at Terry Rozier next to other point guards. If you took all the players in the NBA who are under 6'7, played at least 15 mpg, and appeared in at least 40 games this year, do you know where Terry Rozier ranks?

106th. Slightly ahead of Luke Kennard and slightly behind Norman Powell. Behind guys like Shea Gilgeous-Alexander, Jeff Teague, Malcolm Brogdon.

Kyrie Irving meanwhile (and I'm not saying this is good or bad) has the 11th highest usage rate of those 228 available players from 18-19.

Quote
Looking at league wide numbers Kyrie is ahead of Paul and Harden for passes made.

While Rozier comes in at 70th in the league behind such passing geniuses as Gobert, Capella, Jabari parker, Danillo Gallinari, Booker, Collins, Mudiay

To show you how insane this stat is for the context you're using, you're representing Rozier as a bad passer because he's 70th league-wide in passes made.

By that same standard, Blake Griffin is a better facilitator than Kyrie because he makes 10 more passes per game.

I am looking at only the team.

Terry ranks the third highest usage on the team. that is fact.
Despite his lower passing rates, his lower assist%, his lower second assist rates, his terrible, one of the bottom of the team, offensive efficiency, he still had the 3rd highest usages on the team.

Terry should rank third on the team, he's the backup point guard. Looking at him in the context (just within the team) is useless beyond gauging how the offense works.

Comparing him to other point guards isn't 'moving the field goal posts' it is properly using the statistic (usage, in this case, which isn't really that useful anyways).

Quote
Griffin was a very willing passer this season, I see no issue in claiming that Griffin was a more WILLING thank Kyrie.

And that is what that statistic was showing, willingness to pass.

Everyone and their moms knew that Kyrie needed to be a more willing passer, and at times he made big strides in that department this past season. Terry, for a PG with the 3rd highest usage on the team, was the opposite. by a mile.

Also, not how any of that works. Kyrie dominated the ball when he was in the game. He should have the most passes. Terry touched the ball substantially less, and still passed more often than Kyrie. That's not 'the opposite, by a mile'.

Quote
On on the passes per minute, you are not taking everything into consideration there either.

Kyrie as a pass/assist ratio of 13.5. Highest on the team
Terrys is 8th on the team at 7.3


This is actually a stat that helps your case. When Kyrie passes the ball, he has a better chance of assisting a basket than when Terry Rozier passes the ball. I concede that without issue.

Quote
Add that to Kyrie having higher potential assists, higher secondary assists, higher assist points created, higher assist adjusted numbers.

but year.

per minute terry makes 0.2 passes more.  wow.  I can also claim that extra minute per minute stat increase is from him rebound hunting on the defensive end.


I'm not claiming Terry is a better passer than Kyrie. I'm saying the stats you used to state Kyrie was better were useless for that case.

What you originally did was basically use FGM to prove who is a better shooter. It's relevant in context but out of context it is useless.

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

 

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