Author Topic: Julian Assange arrested by London police after Ecuador withdraws asylum  (Read 1269 times)

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Re: Julian Assange arrested by London police after Ecuador withdraws asylum
« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2019, 11:52:51 AM »

Offline angryguy77

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Not seeing how it doesn't apply. Us not knowing what some in gov are doing isn't going to lead those people to reconcile with us and start doing the right thing. Cockroaches only scurry away when the light is turned on, they never move out on their own free will.

Who is "Us" there? Also, what were the 'right' and 'wrong' things? Because I think I agree with you with Assange RE: Chelsea Manning leak, but I bet I disagree with you regarding the Podesta email leak, which provided no criminal conduct, but lots of juicy personal inter-party gossip that did nothing to improve the security of our nation but did help Trump get elected.

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The wife is going to take you to the cleaners no matter what

Is she? Why can't you reconcile? She's been asking for a date night once and a while since 2012, try taking her to a movie SHE gets to pick. You don't know. Love finds a way.

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She, like those in gov who are not working for us, are not interested in "making it work." You imply that there's somehow a chance to work things out when it's clear these crooks have not an iota of interest in doing the right thing.

Who is the "us" there, and who are the "crooks"?


Do you know of any sleazy politician who went from crook to a "Mr. Smith" type? Criminals don't often reform on their own, and if they do, they change environments. This isn't the WWE where we have changes in characters.

Well I'm pretty sure when you have the gov illegally spying on you, that "us" is a good term to use for example. When these clowns get nailed for insider trading or things like the House post office scandal(dating myself I know), it's clear the "us" is everyone.

As far as the emails....lol of course we can't point to some thing because oddly enough, the hardrives were destroyed(which we know that destroying evidence is the first thing an innocent person does). It's also kind of hard to gauge things when the FBI director decides he can open and shut a case after reading a few emails before bed during his weekend off. 

The fact is, there were some bad things going on. The funny part to me is we see all this talk about the Russian meddling being destructive to the country, yet a dossier with 0 evidence behind it was ran with for 2  freaking years and used as a source in an attempt to make our last presidential election illegitimate. 

Look, this isn't a repub vs dem thing for me. As far as I'm concerned, both sides are more than happy to sell us out to the highest bidder. We are a nation in decline and the amount of corruption by those we elect, and the fact they are above the law tells you that it's only a matter of time before we collapse.

Re: Julian Assange arrested by London police after Ecuador withdraws asylum
« Reply #31 on: April 17, 2019, 12:07:33 PM »

Offline gift

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WikiLeaks covered up a Russian bank transfer from Syria for $2 billion dollars.
After it was picked up by reporters of the Daily Dot, WikiLeaks threatened retribution.

Assange is working for the Russians.

That claim is disputed and even if true - so what? 

If Assange gets legitimate info from the Russians and publishes it making us all more informed of the lies/corruption of our own govt - isn't that a good thing?  People have gone off deep end over Russia.   

If the information was being shared without any motivation beyond informing the public, that is a different story.

Russia has a pretty clear agenda, it's not in America's interest and it's foolish to think that somehow the goals of "a better informed public" and "Russian national interests" are somehow aligned. This is like a mouse and a snake living together because they both like comfy warm burrows in the ground.

I tend to agree with you, but your argument does presuppose that the U.S. at a state level shares the interests of the population of its citizens. I think there's a valid argument that that is not necessarily always the case.

I wouldn't say always about anything like that. You think when having this discussion you need to review every government action and evaluate whether or not it was made with the people's interests at heart, or do you think it's a safe presumption for rhetorical reasons in this discussion that in the US the government generally acts for the people that it governs.

I think if I presume the government generally acts for the people, then my mind is made up. Likewise if I think the government doesn't act in the interests of its people. I might as well flip a coin.

Otherwise, I think it's always worth having the discussion.

Re: Julian Assange arrested by London police after Ecuador withdraws asylum
« Reply #32 on: April 17, 2019, 12:26:52 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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Do you know of any sleazy politician who went from crook to a "Mr. Smith" type? Criminals don't often reform on their own, and if they do, they change environments. This isn't the WWE where we have changes in characters.

I understand you mean 'bad guys', I wonder who those 'bad guys' are.

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Well I'm pretty sure when you have the gov illegally spying on you, that "us" is a good term to use for example. When these clowns get nailed for insider trading or things like the House post office scandal(dating myself I know), it's clear the "us" is everyone.

Yeah this is what I was getting at regarding the Chelsea Manning leak. Not all Assange's actions are created equal. Regarding the Chelsea Manning leak, that was a classic whistleblower situation and should be treated as such.

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As far as the emails....lol of course we can't point to some thing because oddly enough, the hardrives were destroyed(which we know that destroying evidence is the first thing an innocent person does).

What does this have to do with the Podesta emails? Do you think it was okay to release the Podesta emails, which was a foreign government (Russia) hacking the campaign manager of a major political party and releasing their personal and work emails to the public? This wasn't about national security this was about getting Trump elected and this Assange should answer for.

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The fact is, there were some bad things going on.

What bad things that the country had to know about were going on that were part of the Podesta email hack?

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Look, this isn't a repub vs dem thing for me. As far as I'm concerned, both sides are more than happy to sell us out to the highest bidder. We are a nation in decline and the amount of corruption by those we elect, and the fact they are above the law tells you that it's only a matter of time before we collapse.

Eh....some of that I agree with.

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: Julian Assange arrested by London police after Ecuador withdraws asylum
« Reply #33 on: April 17, 2019, 01:21:35 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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WikiLeaks covered up a Russian bank transfer from Syria for $2 billion dollars.
After it was picked up by reporters of the Daily Dot, WikiLeaks threatened retribution.

Assange is working for the Russians.

That claim is disputed and even if true - so what? 

If Assange gets legitimate info from the Russians and publishes it making us all more informed of the lies/corruption of our own govt - isn't that a good thing?  People have gone off deep end over Russia.   

If the information was being shared without any motivation beyond informing the public, that is a different story.

Russia has a pretty clear agenda, it's not in America's interest and it's foolish to think that somehow the goals of "a better informed public" and "Russian national interests" are somehow aligned. This is like a mouse and a snake living together because they both like comfy warm burrows in the ground.

You can hate on the motive for the message being sent, but that doesn't make the message shouldn't be heard. If someone told you you're wife was planning on screwing you over in a divorce, but they told you for selfish reasons, would you still not want to know?

It's the same here. If we have players in our gov who are working against the people rather than for them, I don't care who the messenger is. The enemny of my enemy is my friend. If the gov is doing things that are destroying our country, we need to know. Now I'm not buying into the russian hysteria(side note...funny how when they were mentioned as a threat back in 2012 those saying so were laughed at...now they're all coming for us)however, it's pretty sad that they do more of a job exposing our gov than our media.

Let's be very clear here.   Putin is our enemy.  He is in no way or form a 'friend' of the United States.  Any suggestion that he is not our adversary on the world stage is absolutely foolish.   He is an authoritarian dictator who is responsible for some terrible crimes both internationally and domestically.  He is responsible for the air and land campaign that reduced Grozny to rubble, killing tens of thousands and creating many times that of refugees.  He has supplied and abetted pro-Russian forces in the Ukraine in a struggle that has taken 10,000 lives.  His agents brought down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, killing hundreds of innocents.  Even before he became 'president for life' his background is with the KGB during times when they were at the height of it's crackdown on dissidents. He is a dangerous, deadly adversary who is in conflict with the U.S. and our allies for power and influence all over the world.    He is not our friend.  This is a consensus view by pretty much every single informed member of the defense and intelligence communities, not to mention most every credible analyst of international relations.

If Assange had released selective information that specifically targeted only 'bad actors' within the U.S. government, then I'd give him a tiny bit more credit as a 'whistleblower'.  But that's not what Assange did.  Assange dumped sweeping, un-redacted data putting the lives of numerous folks completely unconnected with any such "bad actors" at risk.   He exposed operations in a way that directly benefited Russia and our adversaries.

He also neutralized several intelligence-gathering methodologies because their technical details were released, sufficient to arm adversaries against them.   This put the lives of servicemen around the world at risk because they no longer would be able to benefit from the intelligence from those sources.

The notion that all information should be out in the public is naive and simplistic.   Yes, evidence of wrong-doing should be exposed when found out.   But to deny that the government doesn't have legitimate reasons to classify information for national security purposes is simply wrong.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: Julian Assange arrested by London police after Ecuador withdraws asylum
« Reply #34 on: April 17, 2019, 01:28:46 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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The vast majority of the U.S. government, including intelligence and defense force personnel, are just good, normal people trying to do their job to serve the country.   They aren't part of some elite nefarious corrupt cabal.    Yet what Assange did hit them hard.    It's like shooting at at a rat with a shot-gun, only the spray from the shot is so wide and goes past the rat and hits innocent bystanders.    Just because you hit the rat doesn't make what you did right.
What a bunch of bootlicking.

Are you suggesting that the vast majority of folks working for the U.S. government (employees, contractors, defense personnel) are NOT just good normal people trying to do their job?  Are you suggesting that they ARE all part of some nefarious cabal of corruption?

Please explain.

"Normal people just doing their jobs" is not the justification you want to get behind. Even if there was a nefarious cabal of corruption, no doubt it would depend on normal people just doing their jobs.

So ... if you see a bad guy standing in front of a crowd of bystanders, it's okay to sweep the target with a machine gun to make sure you hit him?

I think you're responding to something you think I am inferring based upon my critique of your justification. To use your analogy, what I am saying is that there must be something other than "the bystanders are just normal people doing their jobs" to justify not risking them, because there are always normal people just doing their jobs in every wrongful campaign. You certainly have to weigh that cost, but it's not an absolute that since they are involved therefore no risk should come to them. If you argue that they should be left out, it should be for some other reason (greater utility, or cost/benefit analysis etc). Employment is not an absolution from moral or ethical responsibility. At least that's what I've been told.

I disagree.  The analogy is exactly applicable to the Assange/Snowden action.   They sprayed a machine gun around at a crowd.   The fact that they exposed bad actors within the scope of that does not at all justify what they did.

The description of these being 'good people just doing their jobs' unrelated to the bad actors isn't absolving them of guilt due to employment.  It's simply pointing out that they aren't guilty because of their employment by the government either.  They are presumed innocent just like anybody should be.

Edit: meant to type Snowden.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2019, 01:54:30 PM by mmmmm »
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Re: Julian Assange arrested by London police after Ecuador withdraws asylum
« Reply #35 on: April 17, 2019, 01:53:24 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Do you know of any sleazy politician who went from crook to a "Mr. Smith" type? Criminals don't often reform on their own, and if they do, they change environments. This isn't the WWE where we have changes in characters.

I understand you mean 'bad guys', I wonder who those 'bad guys' are.

Quote
Well I'm pretty sure when you have the gov illegally spying on you, that "us" is a good term to use for example. When these clowns get nailed for insider trading or things like the House post office scandal(dating myself I know), it's clear the "us" is everyone.

Yeah this is what I was getting at regarding the Chelsea Manning leak. Not all Assange's actions are created equal. Regarding the Chelsea Manning leak, that was a classic whistleblower situation and should be treated as such.


Manning at least had legit whistleblower intentions.  He/she tried to selectively release only information regarding specific crimes.   Manning has even spoke at length on the absolute need to keep certain critical information secret.

The Podesta email dump and the Snowden leak were nowhere near as selective.  Those were broad, sweeping dumps of information.   The Snowden leak was damaging to many programs, most not really subject to any 'whistleblowing' need.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: Julian Assange arrested by London police after Ecuador withdraws asylum
« Reply #36 on: April 17, 2019, 02:30:21 PM »

Online CKilo

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Let's be very clear here.   Putin is our enemy.  He is in no way or form a 'friend' of the United States.  Any suggestion that he is not our adversary on the world stage is absolutely foolish.   He is an authoritarian dictator who is responsible for some terrible crimes both internationally and domestically.  He is responsible for the air and land campaign that reduced Grozny to rubble, killing tens of thousands and creating many times that of refugees.  He has supplied and abetted pro-Russian forces in the Ukraine in a struggle that has taken 10,000 lives.  His agents brought down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, killing hundreds of innocents.  Even before he became 'president for life' his background is with the KGB during times when they were at the height of it's crackdown on dissidents. He is a dangerous, deadly adversary who is in conflict with the U.S. and our allies for power and influence all over the world.    He is not our friend.  This is a consensus view by pretty much every single informed member of the defense and intelligence communities, not to mention most every credible analyst of international relations.

The US has done many of the exact same things - (probably more and worse).   

Re: Julian Assange arrested by London police after Ecuador withdraws asylum
« Reply #37 on: April 17, 2019, 02:42:02 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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Let's be very clear here.   Putin is our enemy.  He is in no way or form a 'friend' of the United States.  Any suggestion that he is not our adversary on the world stage is absolutely foolish.   He is an authoritarian dictator who is responsible for some terrible crimes both internationally and domestically.  He is responsible for the air and land campaign that reduced Grozny to rubble, killing tens of thousands and creating many times that of refugees.  He has supplied and abetted pro-Russian forces in the Ukraine in a struggle that has taken 10,000 lives.  His agents brought down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, killing hundreds of innocents.  Even before he became 'president for life' his background is with the KGB during times when they were at the height of it's crackdown on dissidents. He is a dangerous, deadly adversary who is in conflict with the U.S. and our allies for power and influence all over the world.    He is not our friend.  This is a consensus view by pretty much every single informed member of the defense and intelligence communities, not to mention most every credible analyst of international relations.

The US has done many of the exact same things - (probably more and worse).   


Which means what? Like..how do you apply that?

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: Julian Assange arrested by London police after Ecuador withdraws asylum
« Reply #38 on: April 17, 2019, 03:00:39 PM »

Online CKilo

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Which means what? Like..how do you apply that?

It means we need to look in the mirror.  It means Putin is bad, US is bad and every govt in general is bad, so the more info we have the better.  We need to know what govt is doing - and all the bad things they do - they aren't going to tell us on their own. 

 

Re: Julian Assange arrested by London police after Ecuador withdraws asylum
« Reply #39 on: April 17, 2019, 03:23:38 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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dude is bit looney

was a report he was riding a skateboard though the embassey ...LOL...cussing out the security guards .... and :laugh:

Re: Julian Assange arrested by London police after Ecuador withdraws asylum
« Reply #40 on: April 17, 2019, 06:08:16 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Which means what? Like..how do you apply that?

It means we need to look in the mirror.  It means Putin is bad, US is bad and every govt in general is bad, so the more info we have the better.

Putin as an individual, based on his observed actions, is bad.   He is a threat to the U.S. because he is an individual who wields tremendous power to do bad things.

The U.S. is a huge country made of hundreds of millions of individuals.  The U.S. Government is a loose construction of a couple of million federal employees and a similar total of state and local employees and another few million contractors working at all kinds of different levels.   They are just people.   Some of them are your neighbors.  Do you think your average neighbor is "bad"?

Some individuals in the U.S. government are almost certainly bad actors.   And those people should be caught and removed.   But your unsupported sweeping characterization as if all of the government is "bad" is just ... not really very useful at all.

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We need to know what govt is doing - and all the bad things they do - they aren't going to tell us on their own.
Well transparency in government is certainly important.  That's why we have a free press, whistleblower laws and a Freedom of Information Act.    But not _everything_ needs to be put out in the public at all times.   Should troop movements be made public?   The location of nuclear arsenals?   Transport agendas?  The names of contacts in adversary countries who provide us information?   The identities of our agents working undercover in those areas?

It's again, just not a realistic or useful position to think you (the public) should have access to all of that un-redacted.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

 

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