Author Topic: Ainge: "Pierce had a better career then Wade"  (Read 2052 times)

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Re: Ainge: "Pierce had a better career then Wade"
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2019, 10:16:54 AM »

Offline Donoghus

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Even by his own numbers he is really just saying Pierce was better for longer, but Wade had a higher peak.  Also a very good chance that number is skewed by Pierce playing on better teams far longer into his 30's than Wade did.

Pretty much.  I dislike Wade but he gets the edge if we are picking either player at their absolute peak.  There's no way Pierce could have ever lead a title run that is equivalent to Wade's in 2005-06.  Wade could take a team further as the clear cut best player.

While I suspect that you’re right, it’s impossible to say. In Wade’s run, he still had Shaq, who averaged 18 points, 10 rebounds and 60% shooting in those playoffs.

Pierce never had that inside presence or efficiency in a teammate. Could Prime Pierce have won a title with Sub-Prime Shaq? I think there’s a strong possibility.

I also maintain that Shaq's impact went beyond his numbers in his first two years in Miami. He still commanded the attention of a #1 option on any given possession.

You guys are mostly correct about Shaq.  He was still a dominant force for the first two years in Miami, including an excellent ECF against the Pistons in 2006.  The major exception to this was the NBA Finals against Dallas.  Shaq had his worst playoff series by far up to that point.  He had a negative +/- in EVERY game except for one.  For the series he was a -28. 

I think some people forget how much Wade had to carry that team through the Finals.   His usage rate was higher than any playoff series of Pierce's career.  I stand by the statement that Pierce couldn't have accomplished this under the same circumstances.

He also benefited from some very "generous" officiating.  97 FTA in a 6 game series.  25 attempts in Game 5. 

That's insane.


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Re: Ainge: "Pierce had a better career then Wade"
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2019, 10:40:51 AM »

Online mgent

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Even by his own numbers he is really just saying Pierce was better for longer, but Wade had a higher peak.  Also a very good chance that number is skewed by Pierce playing on better teams far longer into his 30's than Wade did.

Pretty much.  I dislike Wade but he gets the edge if we are picking either player at their absolute peak.  There's no way Pierce could have ever lead a title run that is equivalent to Wade's in 2005-06.  Wade could take a team further as the clear cut best player.

While I suspect that you’re right, it’s impossible to say. In Wade’s run, he still had Shaq, who averaged 18 points, 10 rebounds and 60% shooting in those playoffs.

Pierce never had that inside presence or efficiency in a teammate. Could Prime Pierce have won a title with Sub-Prime Shaq? I think there’s a strong possibility.

I also maintain that Shaq's impact went beyond his numbers in his first two years in Miami. He still commanded the attention of a #1 option on any given possession.

You guys are mostly correct about Shaq.  He was still a dominant force for the first two years in Miami, including an excellent ECF against the Pistons in 2006.  The major exception to this was the NBA Finals against Dallas.  Shaq had his worst playoff series by far up to that point.  He had a negative +/- in EVERY game except for one.  For the series he was a -28. 

I think some people forget how much Wade the refs had to carry that team through the Finals.   His usage rate was higher than any playoff series of Pierce's career.  I stand by the statement that Pierce couldn't have accomplished this under the same circumstances.
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Re: Ainge: "Pierce had a better career then Wade"
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2019, 10:41:01 AM »

Offline jambr380

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Having Shaq and Walker is better than just having Walker. Pierce's pre-KG/Allen Cs had a couple of solid runs for a team severely lacking in talent.

I'm definitely a homer and am taking PP. Glad Ainge was able to get the numbers to work to his advantage.

Re: Ainge: "Pierce had a better career then Wade"
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2019, 10:43:39 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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Having Shaq and Walker is better than just having Walker. Pierce's pre-KG/Allen Cs had a couple of solid runs for a team severely lacking in talent.

I'm definitely a homer and am taking PP. Glad Ainge was able to get the numbers to work to his advantage.

Yeah, it's amazing that in 2003 the Celtics third leading scorer in the playoffs was Tony Delk.


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Re: Ainge: "Pierce had a better career then Wade"
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2019, 10:56:47 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Having Shaq and Walker is better than just having Walker. Pierce's pre-KG/Allen Cs had a couple of solid runs for a team severely lacking in talent.

I'm definitely a homer and am taking PP. Glad Ainge was able to get the numbers to work to his advantage.

Yeah, it's amazing that in 2003 the Celtics third leading scorer in the playoffs was Tony Delk.
might have been better than the 06 version of Toine that was 3rd for those Heat teams.  He was at a minimum far more efficient than Toine.

Re: Ainge: "Pierce had a better career then Wade"
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2019, 11:03:33 AM »

Offline Donoghus

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That '02-03 squad was not a terribly good team.  They were the beneficiaries of an Isaiah Thomas coaching botch job in the 1st round.    Nets smoked 'em in the 2nd round.    That's when the reality of '01-'02 being a mirage really settled in. 


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Re: Ainge: "Pierce had a better career then Wade"
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2019, 11:20:45 AM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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Thanks for posting this.

Hated seeing PP34 getting roasted for this but the data doesn't lie.

With THAT being said I wish MIA would've made it into the playoffs. DET is getting their behinds handed to them.

At the rate they are going they won't be able to sit down very soon.

MIA would've put up a HECK of a fight.
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Re: Ainge: "Pierce had a better career then Wade"
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2019, 11:21:28 AM »

Offline Big333223

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I love seeing Ainge sticking up for Pierce and bringing something to the table as well.

One of the great What Ifs in NBA history is KG's injury in '09. In terms of this debate, what happens if KG is healthy for the playoffs in '09 and fully healthy in '10 (I don't think he was fully right until '11 but by then he was 34) and that Celtic team 3-peats with Pierce winning a second Finals MVP.

The Pierce/Wade resume comparison would suddenly get a lot more interesting.

But it didn't happen.
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Re: Ainge: "Pierce had a better career then Wade"
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2019, 11:22:10 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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Having Shaq and Walker is better than just having Walker. Pierce's pre-KG/Allen Cs had a couple of solid runs for a team severely lacking in talent.

I'm definitely a homer and am taking PP. Glad Ainge was able to get the numbers to work to his advantage.

Yeah, it's amazing that in 2003 the Celtics third leading scorer in the playoffs was Tony Delk.
might have been better than the 06 version of Toine that was 3rd for those Heat teams.  He was at a minimum far more efficient than Toine.

Yeah, but the difference between Antoine vs. Shaq as the second player is huge.  It's not something that can really be quantified in traditional stats.

As I said, I lean slightly toward Wade, but it's a debate that I think is unproveable due to all the various factors.  Pierce next to a dominant big man would have been tremendous.

I definitely think that Pierce is one of the most underrated players of our era.  Let's say Pierce had been traded for Kobe, and Shaq still joined the Lakers.  How many rings are we talking about? 


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Re: Ainge: "Pierce had a better career then Wade"
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2019, 11:40:25 AM »

Offline gift

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Even by his own numbers he is really just saying Pierce was better for longer, but Wade had a higher peak.  Also a very good chance that number is skewed by Pierce playing on better teams far longer into his 30's than Wade did.

Pretty much.  I dislike Wade but he gets the edge if we are picking either player at their absolute peak.  There's no way Pierce could have ever lead a title run that is equivalent to Wade's in 2005-06.  Wade could take a team further as the clear cut best player.

While I suspect that you’re right, it’s impossible to say. In Wade’s run, he still had Shaq, who averaged 18 points, 10 rebounds and 60% shooting in those playoffs.

Pierce never had that inside presence or efficiency in a teammate. Could Prime Pierce have won a title with Sub-Prime Shaq? I think there’s a strong possibility.

I also maintain that Shaq's impact went beyond his numbers in his first two years in Miami. He still commanded the attention of a #1 option on any given possession.

You guys are mostly correct about Shaq.  He was still a dominant force for the first two years in Miami, including an excellent ECF against the Pistons in 2006.  The major exception to this was the NBA Finals against Dallas.  Shaq had his worst playoff series by far up to that point.  He had a negative +/- in EVERY game except for one.  For the series he was a -28. 

I think some people forget how much Wade had to carry that team through the Finals.   His usage rate was higher than any playoff series of Pierce's career.  I stand by the statement that Pierce couldn't have accomplished this under the same circumstances.

I know it's the Finals, and it was a fantastic performance (and I was rooting for the Heat at the time), but in the context of his career, it was really a 4-game hot streak for Wade (with a ton of FTs). So I try to keep that in context as well. Could Pierce have had 2 subpar games and then a 4-game hot streak against that Dallas team? I don't doubt it.

Re: Ainge: "Pierce had a better career then Wade"
« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2019, 12:03:30 PM »

Offline CptZoogs

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Who had more J points?

Re: Ainge: "Pierce had a better career then Wade"
« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2019, 12:13:13 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Having Shaq and Walker is better than just having Walker. Pierce's pre-KG/Allen Cs had a couple of solid runs for a team severely lacking in talent.

I'm definitely a homer and am taking PP. Glad Ainge was able to get the numbers to work to his advantage.

Yeah, it's amazing that in 2003 the Celtics third leading scorer in the playoffs was Tony Delk.
might have been better than the 06 version of Toine that was 3rd for those Heat teams.  He was at a minimum far more efficient than Toine.

Yeah, but the difference between Antoine vs. Shaq as the second player is huge.  It's not something that can really be quantified in traditional stats.

As I said, I lean slightly toward Wade, but it's a debate that I think is unproveable due to all the various factors.  Pierce next to a dominant big man would have been tremendous.

I definitely think that Pierce is one of the most underrated players of our era.  Let's say Pierce had been traded for Kobe, and Shaq still joined the Lakers.  How many rings are we talking about?
I don't know that Pierce and Shaq gets any more rings than Kobe and Shaq. 

Pierce was hardly ever on All NBA Teams.  He had a very long career, but the reality is even at the time he was never considered a top tier type player.  Now maybe that makes him underrated, or maybe, it just rates him about where he should have been in the Ray Allen level player i.e. a HOFer, but not a true top level player.

Re: Ainge: "Pierce had a better career then Wade"
« Reply #27 on: April 15, 2019, 01:38:44 PM »

Offline Big333223

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Having Shaq and Walker is better than just having Walker. Pierce's pre-KG/Allen Cs had a couple of solid runs for a team severely lacking in talent.

I'm definitely a homer and am taking PP. Glad Ainge was able to get the numbers to work to his advantage.

Yeah, it's amazing that in 2003 the Celtics third leading scorer in the playoffs was Tony Delk.
might have been better than the 06 version of Toine that was 3rd for those Heat teams.  He was at a minimum far more efficient than Toine.

Yeah, but the difference between Antoine vs. Shaq as the second player is huge.  It's not something that can really be quantified in traditional stats.

As I said, I lean slightly toward Wade, but it's a debate that I think is unproveable due to all the various factors.  Pierce next to a dominant big man would have been tremendous.

I definitely think that Pierce is one of the most underrated players of our era.  Let's say Pierce had been traded for Kobe, and Shaq still joined the Lakers.  How many rings are we talking about?
I don't know that Pierce and Shaq gets any more rings than Kobe and Shaq. 

Pierce was hardly ever on All NBA Teams.  He had a very long career, but the reality is even at the time he was never considered a top tier type player.  Now maybe that makes him underrated, or maybe, it just rates him about where he should have been in the Ray Allen level player i.e. a HOFer, but not a true top level player.

The question is, how would Pierce have been viewed and how many All NBA teams would he have made if he was playing next to Shaq?
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Re: Ainge: "Pierce had a better career then Wade"
« Reply #28 on: April 15, 2019, 01:53:54 PM »

Offline gift

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Who had more J points?

I'll work on that.

Re: Ainge: "Pierce had a better career then Wade"
« Reply #29 on: April 15, 2019, 01:58:36 PM »

Offline gift

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Having Shaq and Walker is better than just having Walker. Pierce's pre-KG/Allen Cs had a couple of solid runs for a team severely lacking in talent.

I'm definitely a homer and am taking PP. Glad Ainge was able to get the numbers to work to his advantage.

Yeah, it's amazing that in 2003 the Celtics third leading scorer in the playoffs was Tony Delk.
might have been better than the 06 version of Toine that was 3rd for those Heat teams.  He was at a minimum far more efficient than Toine.

Yeah, but the difference between Antoine vs. Shaq as the second player is huge.  It's not something that can really be quantified in traditional stats.

As I said, I lean slightly toward Wade, but it's a debate that I think is unproveable due to all the various factors.  Pierce next to a dominant big man would have been tremendous.

I definitely think that Pierce is one of the most underrated players of our era.  Let's say Pierce had been traded for Kobe, and Shaq still joined the Lakers.  How many rings are we talking about?
I don't know that Pierce and Shaq gets any more rings than Kobe and Shaq. 

Pierce was hardly ever on All NBA Teams.  He had a very long career, but the reality is even at the time he was never considered a top tier type player.  Now maybe that makes him underrated, or maybe, it just rates him about where he should have been in the Ray Allen level player i.e. a HOFer, but not a true top level player.

I agree (reluctantly) that Kobe was a level up on Pierce. But I'd argue Shaq and Pierce win from 2000-2002 still and perhaps get along better than Shaq and Kobe did and therefore have a shot to win in 2005-2006 also (there's a lot of reaching there I know). So I guess there's the argument if you want to say Pierce would've been even better with Shaq.

I also don't think Wade was on Kobe's level either, so Pierce and Wade is more debatable than Pierce and Kobe. My memory may be faulty though.

 

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