Author Topic: New Zealand reforming gun laws/US gun debate after another shooting  (Read 15917 times)

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Offline mobilija

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So....
New Zealand experiences a mass killing by assault weapons, ~50 people killed by 1 terrorist with assault style automatic weapons. The worst their country has seen. Government Planning on an overhaul of their firearm policies and purchasing laws which are already more stringent the US. Should be in effect by Mid-April.

The US experiences one of these attacks every year (maybe more), not to mention the many more “minor” murders by firearms every day. What are we doing for Prevention? Should we be doing more? Can we?

Personally, I find it embarrassing and horrifying to live in a place with such little government actions to curtail these horrors. At the moment it is left to schools and private citizens to protect themselves. I can’t believe my elementary and middle school children have to live in fear during the day w the knowledge that access to a weapon designed to easily end human life is accessible to wackos that could potentially end their life.

Thoughts? Solutions? Wanna keep your guns, can you really justify it?

« Last Edit: August 04, 2019, 11:36:13 AM by nickagneta »

Re: New Zealand reforming gun laws
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2019, 05:12:00 PM »

Offline Amonkey

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I don't know about going as far as NZ's action but I do appreciate that they are doing something about it more than just 'thoughts and prayers'. I think things such as universal background checks and restriction of high capacity firearms (or at least a more stringent buying process) along with opening up research on the effect of firearm are reasonable steps towards finding a solution.
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Re: New Zealand reforming gun laws
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2019, 05:13:34 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Wanna keep your guns, can you really justify it?

As a Constitutional right, I'm not sure it needs to be justified.

That said, there are millions of responsible gun owners in the United States.  That's compared to the thousands of criminals that abuse guns.

While I agree with sensible gun reform -- universal registration, requiring background checks for all gun sales, limiting magazine size, etc. -- I don't think all guns should be taken or banned.
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Re: New Zealand reforming gun laws
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2019, 05:41:52 PM »

Offline mobilija

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Wanna keep your guns, can you really justify it?

As a Constitutional right, I'm not sure it needs to be justified.

That said, there are millions of responsible gun owners in the United States.  That's compared to the thousands of criminals that abuse guns.

While I agree with sensible gun reform -- universal registration, requiring background checks for all gun sales, limiting magazine size, etc. -- I don't think all guns should be taken or banned.

When are country was formed after revolting from British tyranny, the “right to bear arms” made sense. Not sure that constitutional right makes much sense in modern society. What purpose does that serve now? Constitutional rights get challenged, put up for change and even added all the time. Why is this different?

Millions of responsible folk... thousands of criminals... not sure those numbers matter, assuming they are factual numbers. Thousands of criminals owning and abusing gun rights, that doesn’t seem like a problem? Shouldn’t those responsible millions be willing to sacrifice their guni ownership for the safety of children, women...everyone? What makes their right to have a gun more important than the safety of kids going to school, folks going out dancing or people praying?

Totally agree that New Zealand is far different country than ours in size and isolation. And that they therefore have different abilities than ours to make sweeping changes but... they are doing something! Are we?

Re: New Zealand reforming gun laws
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2019, 05:45:20 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Shouldn’t those responsible millions be willing to sacrifice their guni ownership for the safety of children, women...everyone?

Can you give me a list of rights that you'd be willing to sacrifice in the name of safety?

Should we give up the 4th Amendment?  The 5th?  What about the 1st?  Certainly the world would be safer without habeas corpus and due process.  Those too?

I have a hard time telling people that they can't protect themselves from burglars, rapists, etc.  Self-defense is a right.  If it was feasible to disarm all of the criminals, maybe disarming law-abiding citizens would be possible.  However, that's simply not a practical solution.
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Re: New Zealand reforming gun laws
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2019, 06:00:14 PM »

Offline number_n9ne

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For me it always comes back to being Pro-Gun and Pro-Common Sense Gun Laws, and these two sentiments not being mutually exclusive. It doesn't need to be one side or the other. The people who think it's their right to own a military weapon are wrong. The people who think all guns need to go are wrong. There is a middle ground. NZ is taking an interesting approach with their laws, basically protecting farmers and other rural workers who use guns while making their country safer as a whole by banning military-style semiautomatic weapons (I'm confused by this definition, I won't lie) and high capacity magazines with the exception of pump shotguns and .22 caliber rifles. Guns are a tool. Tools fit different jobs. Assault weapons are made to kill people. These are very easy lines to draw. I'm glad to see a government doing something rather than thoughts and prayers. If you hunt, you don't use a 30 round mag (or your a bad hunter.) If you're protecting your house, you don't use an AR (too big to clear corners, too strong and can go through a wall and hurt someone else.) No civilian has a need for these weapons. A shotgun, a bolt action rifle, a .22, or a handgun all make sense. Thanks for coming to my TedTalk.

Re: New Zealand reforming gun laws
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2019, 06:00:57 PM »

Offline manl_lui

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I apologize in advance as my knowledge is not that good, so please correct me if i said anything that is wrong

I think the two differences between the US and NZ is that this time the terrorist purchased his firearm legally, vs a lot of the cases in the US mass shootings are either guns purchased illegally or guns that were purchased for them / taken from a parent.

I think in NZ case, we cannot use "banning doesn't work because criminals will always find a way to get a gun" excuse. I do agree with what most has already said, I don't see a problem with stricter control on magazines AND universal background checks. While I don't necessarily agree (to be fair I actually don't know which way i lean atm) with a ban right out , at least the difference between FL and MA seems to be how easy some people can get their way around guns.

in NZ's case, i don't know if their ban and buyback policy now will help much as I don't think NZ has much of a mass shooting history, but in my opinion, possibly due to the policy (gun ownership per capita , as US ranks #1 vs NZ @ 20 )

I do think and have no objections if it comes to universal background checks and stricter control on magazines being implemented in the US.

Re: New Zealand reforming gun laws
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2019, 06:13:25 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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So....
New Zealand experiences a mass killing by assault weapons, ~50 people killed by 1 terrorist with assault style automatic weapons. The worst their country has seen. Government Planning on an overhaul of their firearm policies and purchasing laws which are already more stringent the US. Should be in effect by Mid-April.

The US experiences one of these attacks every year (maybe more), not to mention the many more “minor” murders by firearms every day. What are we doing for Prevention? Should we be doing more? Can we?

Personally, I find it embarrassing and horrifying to live in a place with such little government actions to curtail these horrors. At the moment it is left to schools and private citizens to protect themselves. I can’t believe my elementary and middle school children have to live in fear during the day w the knowledge that access to a weapon designed to easily end human life is accessible to wackos that could potentially end their life.

Thoughts? Solutions? Wanna keep your guns, can you really justify it?

I think they can get away with this their because of the kind of wildlife they have. It is mostly docile sheep and the like. Here large parts of the country are dealing with mountain lions and bears, some of whom, travel in packs. Is that fair?

Re: New Zealand reforming gun laws
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2019, 06:18:23 PM »

Offline gift

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Wanna keep your guns, can you really justify it?

I mean, are you talking to potential mass shooters or murderers? Asking them to justify owning their guns? Or are you posing the question to the millions of people owning guns that will never harm anyone? I don't think there's much justification necessary for those people.

Re: New Zealand reforming gun laws
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2019, 06:20:16 PM »

Offline mobilija

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Quote
Shouldn’t those responsible millions be willing to sacrifice their guni ownership for the safety of children, women...everyone?

Can you give me a list of rights that you'd be willing to sacrifice in the name of safety?

Should we give up the 4th Amendment?  The 5th?  What about the 1st?  Certainly the world would be safer without habeas corpus and due process.  Those too?

I have a hard time telling people that they can't protect themselves from burglars, rapists, etc.  Self-defense is a right.  If it was feasible to disarm all of the criminals, maybe disarming law-abiding citizens would be possible.  However, that's simply not a practical solution.

Different Amendments, different issues. Don’t think any of those amendments are infringing on anyone’s ability to live in safety without being murdered simply for going to school. Sorry, I don’t think hiding behind an outdated amendment is justification.

But is protecting yourself justification? Maybe. People have every right to protect themselves and to be just as “armed” as the criminals. But Just like there are other ways to kill people, not just from guns, there are other ways to protect yourself. Take martial arts class, carry mace. It’s a case of of one-upism. You gotta a knife? I’m gonna get a gun! What?!? You got a gun? I’m gonna get a bigger gun! That’s not a solution, that’s adding to a problem. You want and even playing(or killing) field? Fine. Put the field at karate and knives or at the least hand guns. Why does the field have to be at autamic weapons? Maybe we should make the field be at rocket launchers.... :o


And BTW giving up guns was and is a practical solution in Australia.

I’m not gonna pretend I’m smarter than everybody and suggest that this extreme act or that extreme act will solve our gun problem. I’m not even suggesting that taking away all guns is the solution but people need to start making some sacrifices. Is our government doing anything?!? Oh yeah....they wanna build a wall to stop murderous hordes of brown people from entering our country.

Re: New Zealand reforming gun laws
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2019, 06:22:45 PM »

Offline mobilija

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For me it always comes back to being Pro-Gun and Pro-Common Sense Gun Laws, and these two sentiments not being mutually exclusive. It doesn't need to be one side or the other. The people who think it's their right to own a military weapon are wrong. The people who think all guns need to go are wrong. There is a middle ground. NZ is taking an interesting approach with their laws, basically protecting farmers and other rural workers who use guns while making their country safer as a whole by banning military-style semiautomatic weapons (I'm confused by this definition, I won't lie) and high capacity magazines with the exception of pump shotguns and .22 caliber rifles. Guns are a tool. Tools fit different jobs. Assault weapons are made to kill people. These are very easy lines to draw. I'm glad to see a government doing something rather than thoughts and prayers. If you hunt, you don't use a 30 round mag (or your a bad hunter.) If you're protecting your house, you don't use an AR (too big to clear corners, too strong and can go through a wall and hurt someone else.) No civilian has a need for these weapons. A shotgun, a bolt action rifle, a .22, or a handgun all make sense. Thanks for coming to my TedTalk.

Fair and reasonable. TP

Re: New Zealand reforming gun laws
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2019, 06:23:42 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I apologize in advance as my knowledge is not that good, so please correct me if i said anything that is wrong

I think the two differences between the US and NZ is that this time the terrorist purchased his firearm legally, vs a lot of the cases in the US mass shootings are either guns purchased illegally or guns that were purchased for them / taken from a parent.

I think in NZ case, we cannot use "banning doesn't work because criminals will always find a way to get a gun" excuse. I do agree with what most has already said, I don't see a problem with stricter control on magazines AND universal background checks. While I don't necessarily agree (to be fair I actually don't know which way i lean atm) with a ban right out , at least the difference between FL and MA seems to be how easy some people can get their way around guns.

in NZ's case, i don't know if their ban and buyback policy now will help much as I don't think NZ has much of a mass shooting history, but in my opinion, possibly due to the policy (gun ownership per capita , as US ranks #1 vs NZ @ 20 )

I do think and have no objections if it comes to universal background checks and stricter control on magazines being implemented in the US.
There are lots of examples of American mass shooters obtaining their killing weapons legally. Lots. The easiest example the worst American mass killingin Las Vegas. The shooter had all legally obtained weapons.

The reason New Zealand is getting something done with new laws after just one mass shooting and America isn't is politics. Plain and simple politics. Much stricter gun control laws will adversely affect gun and ammunition companies and they use the NRA as a political machine to generate "take away your guns" fear and pay many, many politicians to kill any type of national gun control laws.

I will say, have said many times here, that I think the 2nd Amendment is an outdated Amendment and should be repealed. I don't think you need to completely outlaw possession of all firearms but I think gun ownership should be an absolute necessity not a right.

People in areas far from law enforcement, they should have guns. People in law enforcement, they should have guns. People who need to protect their lands from wild animals, they should have guns. People who need guns to hunt for food to survive, they should have guns.

But what I want will never happen so I would be cool with

- No assault weapons.
- No high capacity mags
- No bump stocks
- Much tougher background checks mandatory
- Allow CDC to study gun related death research
- Change laws as to how weapons are handled when someone loses their right to possess firearms
- Massive reform on hand gun possession. Hand guns are the plague that kills in America, not rifles and some hunting weapons.
- Study mental health and gun possession and create laws that would limit gun possession to those with certain mental illnesses
- National register of every gun owned legally in America
- Research technology that can be implemented on all newly manufactured guns for sale in America to have finger activated technology and then make it happen by law
« Last Edit: March 21, 2019, 06:56:57 PM by nickagneta »

Re: New Zealand reforming gun laws
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2019, 06:25:45 PM »

Offline mobilija

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So....
New Zealand experiences a mass killing by assault weapons, ~50 people killed by 1 terrorist with assault style automatic weapons. The worst their country has seen. Government Planning on an overhaul of their firearm policies and purchasing laws which are already more stringent the US. Should be in effect by Mid-April.

The US experiences one of these attacks every year (maybe more), not to mention the many more “minor” murders by firearms every day. What are we doing for Prevention? Should we be doing more? Can we?

Personally, I find it embarrassing and horrifying to live in a place with such little government actions to curtail these horrors. At the moment it is left to schools and private citizens to protect themselves. I can’t believe my elementary and middle school children have to live in fear during the day w the knowledge that access to a weapon designed to easily end human life is accessible to wackos that could potentially end their life.

Thoughts? Solutions? Wanna keep your guns, can you really justify it?

I think they can get away with this their because of the kind of wildlife they have. It is mostly docile sheep and the like. Here large parts of the country are dealing with mountain lions and bears, some of whom, travel in packs. Is that fair?

Agree. NZ is a different place than the US. In population size and land size. They have different needs and abilities.

It’s just that they are doing something. They had a one horrible incident. We’ve had...how many? What are we doing?

Re: New Zealand reforming gun laws
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2019, 06:30:10 PM »

Offline mobilija

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Wanna keep your guns, can you really justify it?

I mean, are you talking to potential mass shooters or murderers? Asking them to justify owning their guns? Or are you posing the question to the millions of people owning guns that will never harm anyone? I don't think there's much justification necessary for those people.


Hehe...yeah... mass murders! Stand up! Justify yourselves!

People feel strongly about their guns and strongly about having them taken away. Maybe they are hunters or farmers or scared of other people. I’d like to hear how they justify their needs to have a gun above the needs of others needs not to get shot by a gun. Slippery slope... I know. But Just like those folks don’t wanna have to have their right to own a gun trampled, I don’t wanna have my right NOT to own gun trampled bc everyone else has one. Make sense?

Re: New Zealand reforming gun laws
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2019, 06:43:25 PM »

Offline gift

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Quote
Shouldn’t those responsible millions be willing to sacrifice their guni ownership for the safety of children, women...everyone?

Can you give me a list of rights that you'd be willing to sacrifice in the name of safety?

Should we give up the 4th Amendment?  The 5th?  What about the 1st?  Certainly the world would be safer without habeas corpus and due process.  Those too?

I have a hard time telling people that they can't protect themselves from burglars, rapists, etc.  Self-defense is a right.  If it was feasible to disarm all of the criminals, maybe disarming law-abiding citizens would be possible.  However, that's simply not a practical solution.

But is protecting yourself justification? Maybe. People have every right to protect themselves and to be just as “armed” as the criminals. But Just like there are other ways to kill people, not just from guns, there are other ways to protect yourself. Take martial arts class, carry mace. It’s a case of of one-upism. You gotta a knife? I’m gonna get a gun! What?!? You got a gun? I’m gonna get a bigger gun! That’s not a solution, that’s adding to a problem. You want and even playing(or killing) field? Fine. Put the field at karate and knives or at the least hand guns. Why does the field have to be at autamic weapons? Maybe we should make the field be at rocket launchers.... :o


Can you reconcile the two bolded portions? If a criminal owns an illegal gun, should it be legal for other people to own that gun? If yes, that accomplishes what we have now, without the useless law. If not, than you don't really believe that people have a right to be just as armed as the criminal.

 

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