Author Topic: Trump On His Shutdown: (It Could Last) Months Of Even Years  (Read 5793 times)

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Re: Trump On His Shutdown: (It Could Last) Months Of Even Years
« Reply #75 on: January 10, 2019, 06:47:16 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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We have our child-President holding his breath till he gets what he wants, while mom and dad smile condescendingly while trying to outsmart their child. 

It's ugly and shameful on both sides, IMO.

I heard a republican congressman (I think Fitzpatrick)  this AM on CNN do a nice job scolding both sides.  Basically saying that there is a lot of potential agreement possible if it wasn't so important to each side that they not give the other side a "win". 

What a great opportunity for Dems to act like real adults.  Instead they think they can "win" so they play the all or nothing game.  Trump's "bye-bye" is beyond anything we should expect from a leader, but Pelosi had an absolute "gimme" moment that she squandered.   When Trump says will you give me a Wall if I agree to open the government? Don't say "absolutely not" --- you knucklehead!    Say "Yes" as long as we use "Wall" to describe a non-concrete barrier that will only be used in strategic places -- and will be a addressed as part of a broader plan for border security.

Most "adults" (to use the analogy) figure out pretty fast that rewarding a child for misbehavior is an surefire way to ensure more and more extreme misbehavior in the future.  Like Grandma fairweather used to say, you've gotta love your kids more to say "no" to them than "yes".

Also does anyone know what the deal is with fixating on whether it's concrete or not? It's a weird theme I keep seeing popping up, like Trump's recent obsession with "steel slats". The easiest answer seems like "industry lobbyists" but I feel like there's gotta be more to it.


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Can't you just say what is right rather than play games?  Give the child a "win" and come out looking like an adult rather than getting right in his sandbox.   Man this is frustrating.     

Not funding the wall to reward shutting down the government is what's right, and consistently, clearly refusing to do so is the opposite of playing games. And if you've followed politics for long you should know caving doesn't make them look like adults, it makes them look weak and ineffectual to both opponents and supporters. I respect the frustration but it's one side driving this; the other has no responsibility to roll over for them, and a lot of good reasons not to.

Don't misconstrue my point like that. And you should know politics well enough to know that the process of compromise is not always about resisting the "cave in" and holding firm -- in fact, it's more about finding win-wins than it is about holding out for win-loss.  Don't lecture me on this point -- I've lived through many decades of observing true compromise vs true obstruction. The "win" is not as simple as it is in your attempt to school me.  It is absolutely "adult" to acknowledge your own part in a childish process and to not be afraid to give your child a "win" (so to speak) if in fact the child's point of view has merit.  Which in fact, in this case, the child's POV does.  Trump shouldn't be rewarded for childish behavior (which in fact he won't be by the American people if the Dems act like adults), but good parents recognize and validate their children's POV all the time as they clearly communicate their own POV-- Grandma Fairweather knows this too.  There is universal agreement that a border barrier in strategic places is PART of the broad solution to the border/immigration issue.  It's OK to acknowledge this and put on the table exactly what it is you want (what is a correct and viable solution) rather than play games with it. 

And... despite my perhaps misguided metaphor, Nancy and Chuck are not Little Donald's parents -- and are not responsible for teaching him a lesson. They are responsible for promoting good policy.

I don't believe I was misconstruing your point, though I thought the real point was to express frustration. But more importantly whether we call them adults or not changes nothing about the incentives created by rewarding destructive behavior - it will become routine and more extreme. Heck it's starting to get there in spite of not actually gaining concessions, with only political incentives of dubious value. And again, unilaterally from one side.

I think on the "valid POV" point that perhaps you're conflating the issue of whether to fund a wall at all vs the deliberate use of a government shutdown to compel the opposing party to do it. We probably disagree on both, but hopefully we can agree that, like Sophomore said, the right way to do it is to pass a bill into law, and if you can't, win enough elections on the issue until you can. Not holding a functioning government hostage, with all the chaos and misery it causes, with the side without the hostage inexplicably being the one responsible for ending it. That's not a valid POV and should never be treated as one.

But even outside of the process the Dems already offered $25 billion in funding for DACA legalization last year, which the administration rejected. I'm strongly opposed to that deal, but that's what a "genuine" (heavy air quotes bc it's politics) attempt at compromise looks like. Not one-sided concessions under duress.

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Trump shouldn't be rewarded for childish behavior (which in fact he won't be by the American people if the Dems act like adults)

I just don't know how anyone could genuinely argue this when the entire political history of Trump, and a large part of recent American political history overall, is the American people rewarding increasingly childish political behavior.

You'd probably be surprised at how much we agree.  I'm not sure I am conflating the Wall with the Trump misbehavior, but maybe -- I am finding it hard to follow.  I do get that Trump is engaging in misbehavior, and I was pretty clear at how disgusted I am by it.  I am trying, clearly unsuccessfully in this thread, to acknowledge that we don't need to lose sight of the possibility that a border barrier is part of a comprehensive solution. I try to be clear that I am (as probably most) not anything close to an expert on border security or immigration reform.  This issue impacts me directly almost not at all.  My values lean to a compassionate approach to asylum and immigration -- and I don't like the idea of a menacing barrier between us and our southern neighbors.  That said, I've listened pretty closely to people on both sides of the issue and I am pretty sure that the there is near-agreement on border barrier, human and technological surveillance, asylum clarification, immigration clarification, and funding the system so that fair and compassionate and clear laws can be supported and enforced. 


Given my belief that the sides aren't really too far apart, that there is a place that can fall nicely in the middle that would work, I favor conceding a small point (even if he takes it as a big point) and offering a sensible plan.  I don't think that acting more like Trump gets Nancy and Chuck anywhere -- I think we disagree that Nancy and Chuck are being Trump-like - but that is what I think (btw, I have voted D about 95% of the time over the course of my 40+ years of voting, including for Hillary which I'd do in a heartbeat again v. Trump).  And I disagree that we end childish and disingenuous behavior by adopting childish and disingenuous behavior.  Again, They should be clear about what they value and offer a viable solution, even if part of the solution uses a term that their opponent likes.

Re: Trump On His Shutdown: (It Could Last) Months Of Even Years
« Reply #76 on: January 10, 2019, 06:58:40 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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You'd probably be surprised at how much we agree.  I'm not sure I am conflating the Wall with the Trump misbehavior, but maybe -- I am finding it hard to follow.  I do get that Trump is engaging in misbehavior, and I was pretty clear at how disgusted I am by it.  I am trying, clearly unsuccessfully in this thread, to acknowledge that we don't need to lose sight of the possibility that a border barrier is part of a comprehensive solution. I try to be clear that I am (as probably most) not anything close to an expert on border security or immigration reform.  This issue impacts me directly almost not at all.  My values lean to a compassionate approach to asylum and immigration -- and I don't like the idea of a menacing barrier between us and our southern neighbors.  That said, I've listened pretty closely to people on both sides of the issue and I am pretty sure that the there is near-agreement on border barrier, human and technological surveillance, asylum clarification, immigration clarification, and funding the system so that fair and compassionate and clear laws can be supported and enforced. 


Given my belief that the sides aren't really too far apart, that there is a place that can fall nicely in the middle that would work, I favor conceding a small point (even if he takes it as a big point) and offering a sensible plan.  I don't think that acting more like Trump gets Nancy and Chuck anywhere -- I think we disagree that Nancy and Chuck are being Trump-like - but that is what I think (btw, I have voted D about 95% of the time over the course of my 40+ years of voting, including for Hillary which I'd do in a heartbeat again v. Trump).  And I disagree that we end childish and disingenuous behavior by adopting childish and disingenuous behavior.  Again, They should be clear about what they value and offer a viable solution, even if part of the solution uses a term that their opponent likes.

To sum it up, independent of my feelings about a wall, I don't think forcing government shutdowns to gain political concessions that you can't get through actual governance is basically ever appropriate or to be incentivized. There's probably some conceivable exception somewhere but I can't think of it.  Nor inventing phony "crises" that suddenly arise the instant you don't have total control of the government. Both of those should be 100% non-starters to anyone opposed to childish political behavior.

And independent of my feelings about parenting, I don't think consistently, clearly refusing to make any concessions to a side doing exactly that is the least bit childish or disingenuous; it's exactly the opposite. The only way to curtail childish, disingenuous political behavior is to remove as many incentives to do it as possible. Any approach that involves catering to it is validating and encouraging it.

Re: Trump On His Shutdown: (It Could Last) Months Of Even Years
« Reply #77 on: January 10, 2019, 09:07:43 PM »

Offline Jon

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This is 100% the fault of Trump and McConnell. The Dems are literally trying to pass the measure that passed the Senate 100-0 a month ago, but McConnell won’t let a vote occur because it will make Trump look bad.

This isn’t a two sides issue.

It won’t matter in a month anyway when the Mueller report breaks and we all see just how craven every Republican (both in government and private citizens) has been in permitting this traitorous circus to go on in the name of some tax breaks and a wall that will be a symbol at best.


Re: Trump On His Shutdown: (It Could Last) Months Of Even Years
« Reply #78 on: January 11, 2019, 03:31:33 AM »

Offline trickybilly

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I don’t know what I find more hilarious. Trump, the GOAT himself, or the squealing leftist reaction to everything he does. Hilarious.

“Trump on HIS shutdown”

Bahaha

Trump, in his own words: "If we don't get what we want ... I will shut down the government. And I am proud to shut down the government for border security.... I will take the mantle. I will be the one to shut it down. I'm not going to blame you for it."

It is his shutdown. I made the title you're mocking, and I guess I'm wondering what's funny about it? I'm confused I guess because it seems like you're just out here trolling people who disagree with you.

Amazing how literally describing what is happening before our very eyes, or quoting the things that come out of his mouth in front of us on live TV, becomes "squealing"
"Gimme the ball, gimme the ball". Freddy Quimby, 1994.

Re: Trump On His Shutdown: (It Could Last) Months Of Even Years
« Reply #79 on: January 11, 2019, 05:15:21 AM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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This is 100% the fault of Trump and McConnell. The Dems are literally trying to pass the measure that passed the Senate 100-0 a month ago, but McConnell won’t let a vote occur because it will make Trump look bad.

This isn’t a two sides issue.

It won’t matter in a month anyway when the Mueller report breaks and we all see just how craven every Republican (both in government and private citizens) has been in permitting this traitorous circus to go on in the name of some tax breaks and a wall that will be a symbol at best.

I don’t agree that it’s 100% one side and I think it’s going to keep this shutdown going if we don’t see both sides relent to some extent. It takes 2 sides and I think Nancy is being disingenuous when she says “absolutely no” to border barrier. I don’t think she is telling the truth.

I hope you are correct about the Mueller investigation.  I think Trump is a corrupt man and an awful leader for this country. I just hope Mueller can effectively display irrefutable evidence.

Re: Trump On His Shutdown: (It Could Last) Months Of Even Years
« Reply #80 on: January 11, 2019, 05:28:38 AM »

Offline adam8

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This is 100% the fault of Trump and McConnell. The Dems are literally trying to pass the measure that passed the Senate 100-0 a month ago, but McConnell won’t let a vote occur because it will make Trump look bad.

This isn’t a two sides issue.

It won’t matter in a month anyway when the Mueller report breaks and we all see just how craven every Republican (both in government and private citizens) has been in permitting this traitorous circus to go on in the name of some tax breaks and a wall that will be a symbol at best.

I don’t agree that it’s 100% one side and I think it’s going to keep this shutdown going if we don’t see both sides relent to some extent. It takes 2 sides and I think Nancy is being disingenuous when she says “absolutely no” to border barrier. I don’t think she is telling the truth.

I hope you are correct about the Mueller investigation.  I think Trump is a corrupt man and an awful leader for this country. I just hope Mueller can effectively display irrefutable evidence.
The senate voted 100-0 as in like every single senator voted to pass a bill to open the government, Trump wouldn't sign it after saying he would because Fox News personalities basically said he shouldn't. His Wall bill I believe either received or was going to receive 47 votes as in a handful of Republicans voted against it.

Trump is saying yeah I lost this last election in large part because of my Wall, but i am going to hold the government hostage for something the country doesn't want and I am not going to offer the other side anything other than opening the government.

The democrats are saying let's open the government and then talk about this, as in let's maybe look for a compromise (which they offered once last year 25 billion for DACA)

How anyone looks at this as anything other than 100% on Trump and McConnell is beyond me. Trump "Give me what I want or I will take us both down with the country!" Casual American "both sides are acting like babies"

Re: Trump On His Shutdown: (It Could Last) Months Of Even Years
« Reply #81 on: January 11, 2019, 11:34:53 AM »

Offline mmmmm

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This is 100% the fault of Trump and McConnell. The Dems are literally trying to pass the measure that passed the Senate 100-0 a month ago, but McConnell won’t let a vote occur because it will make Trump look bad.

This isn’t a two sides issue.

It won’t matter in a month anyway when the Mueller report breaks and we all see just how craven every Republican (both in government and private citizens) has been in permitting this traitorous circus to go on in the name of some tax breaks and a wall that will be a symbol at best.

I don’t agree that it’s 100% one side and I think it’s going to keep this shutdown going if we don’t see both sides relent to some extent. It takes 2 sides and I think Nancy is being disingenuous when she says “absolutely no” to border barrier. I don’t think she is telling the truth.

I hope you are correct about the Mueller investigation.  I think Trump is a corrupt man and an awful leader for this country. I just hope Mueller can effectively display irrefutable evidence.

"2 sides" voted for this funding bill just a few short weeks ago when the GOP-controlled Senate passed it overwhelmingly.   Now the Dam-controlled House has passed the exact same thing.

It is being blocked by exactly two men:  Trump and McConnell, either one of whom could move it forward.

This is not a "2 sides" issue.

NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: Trump On His Shutdown: (It Could Last) Months Of Even Years
« Reply #82 on: January 11, 2019, 12:13:43 PM »

Online Surferdad

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This is 100% the fault of Trump and McConnell. The Dems are literally trying to pass the measure that passed the Senate 100-0 a month ago, but McConnell won’t let a vote occur because it will make Trump look bad.

This isn’t a two sides issue.

It won’t matter in a month anyway when the Mueller report breaks and we all see just how craven every Republican (both in government and private citizens) has been in permitting this traitorous circus to go on in the name of some tax breaks and a wall that will be a symbol at best.

I don’t agree that it’s 100% one side and I think it’s going to keep this shutdown going if we don’t see both sides relent to some extent. It takes 2 sides and I think Nancy is being disingenuous when she says “absolutely no” to border barrier. I don’t think she is telling the truth.

I hope you are correct about the Mueller investigation.  I think Trump is a corrupt man and an awful leader for this country. I just hope Mueller can effectively display irrefutable evidence.

"2 sides" voted for this funding bill just a few short weeks ago when the GOP-controlled Senate passed it overwhelmingly.   Now the Dam-controlled House has passed the exact same thing.

It is being blocked by exactly two men:  Trump and McConnell, either one of whom could move it forward.

This is not a "2 sides" issue.
Agreed, but I do have concerns about Pelosi's approach.  It's pointless to say "no wall" when 600 miles of it are already built and most of that is probably in accessible areas where construction is possible.  She should point out that deep ravines of the Rio Grande don't need a wall, the ravine is already much better than a wall.

Re: Trump On His Shutdown: (It Could Last) Months Of Even Years
« Reply #83 on: January 11, 2019, 12:40:10 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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Also does anyone know what the deal is with fixating on whether it's concrete or not? It's a weird theme I keep seeing popping up, like Trump's recent obsession with "steel slats". The easiest answer seems like "industry lobbyists" but I feel like there's gotta be more to it.


Re-upping this here in case anyone has an answer. What is the deal with whether it's concrete or not mattering in any way other than basic engineering & logistics which should be just about moot in a national political debate?

Re: Trump On His Shutdown: (It Could Last) Months Of Even Years
« Reply #84 on: January 11, 2019, 01:27:37 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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i would just like for the laws already in acted to be enforced.  Illegals rounded up and deported ,  Criminals thrown in jail or better yet thrown back across the border.  .  Judges who will do their jobs.  Maybe increase the border guard stations and patrols by 10 fold to start out . use of more drones and high tech to protect the borders .  I m not for a Berlin type wall , Great wall of China type thing . Thats not necessary. I think a area51 type system ,  where use of sensors and monitor stations and some electric fence or barb wire . 

If they cross though Mexico ....then Mexico is where they go back .  Mexico let them cross , let them keep them.

Re: Trump On His Shutdown: (It Could Last) Months Of Even Years
« Reply #85 on: January 11, 2019, 01:46:27 PM »

Offline heyvik

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I will re-iterate the blame IS NOT 2-sided. It is GOP and Trumps fault -

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/trump-rejects-shutdown-deal-republicans-negotiated-republicans?cid=sm_npd_ms_fb_ma

Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) had credible reasons to believe he could help negotiate some kind of resolution to the ongoing government shutdown. Not only does the GOP senator enjoy close ties to Donald Trump, he’s also played a key role within his party on immigration policy, having helped craft the bipartisan “Gang of Eight” bill.

With this in mind, when there was scuttlebutt on Capitol Hill this week about Graham working behind the scenes on a possible deal, it was at least worth watching. Yesterday, however, those efforts collapsed – because of White House opposition. Politico reported:

President Donald Trump has rejected a plan proposed by a bloc of Senate Republicans who had hoped to break an impasse over the government shutdown, leaving Congress and the White House with little obvious way out of the extended battle over Trump’s border wall.

On the 20th day of the shutdown, the GOP group tried to jump start bipartisan talks before Trump declares a national emergency to get his wall. But the president rejected their idea to allow congressional committees to sort out his border wall request while the government reopened, deeming the idea likely to leave him with nothing to show for the shutdown.

Some of the relevant details of the plan remain elusive, but by all accounts, there was a proposal on the table. Vice President Mike Pence and acting Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney took it to the president, who balked.

Of particular interest, though, is who Graham negotiated with. In this case, the Republican South Carolinian worked on a deal with other Republicans, and Democrats were excluded from the process altogether. Despite the fact that Dems control the House, and many Democratic votes would be needed in the Senate, the party was “left out” of the talks and “were never read in” on the proposal.

Even Sen. Joe Manchin (D-W.Va.), arguably Congress’ most conservative Democrat, and a lawmaker who said he’s prepared to work on a possible compromise, wasn’t invited to the discussions.

What we’re left with is a dynamic in which Republicans negotiated a deal with other Republicans, only to be shot down by a Republican president.


Not surprisingly, Graham announced soon after he’d given up on trying to find a resolution to the shutdown.

It was around this time that Vice President Pence summarized the administration’s position: “No wall, no deal.”

Remember when White House counselor Kellyanne Conway said, “Always saying ‘wall’ or ‘no wall’ is being very disingenuous”? That was 12 days ago.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2019, 02:12:38 PM by heyvik »

Re: Trump On His Shutdown: (It Could Last) Months Of Even Years
« Reply #86 on: January 11, 2019, 02:00:31 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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To be determined if it'll last for months or years, but with the Senate adjourning til Monday, we've now guaranteed this will be the longest shutdown ever!!!



WE DID IT!!

Re: Trump On His Shutdown: (It Could Last) Months Of Even Years
« Reply #87 on: January 11, 2019, 02:12:24 PM »

Online Moranis

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For some reason I can't stop watching this or cracking up every time I do.

https://www.facebook.com/aScienceEnthusiast/videos/372535826866212/

Re: Trump On His Shutdown: (It Could Last) Months Of Even Years
« Reply #88 on: January 11, 2019, 02:31:44 PM »

Offline 86MaxwellSmart

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This is 100% the fault of Trump and McConnell. The Dems are literally trying to pass the measure that passed the Senate 100-0 a month ago, but McConnell won’t let a vote occur because it will make Trump look bad.

This isn’t a two sides issue.

It won’t matter in a month anyway when the Mueller report breaks and we all see just how craven every Republican (both in government and private citizens) has been in permitting this traitorous circus to go on in the name of some tax breaks and a wall that will be a symbol at best.

You don't know what you're talking about....wait, you're John Brennan, aren't you-?
Larry Bird was Greater than you think.

Re: Trump On His Shutdown: (It Could Last) Months Of Even Years
« Reply #89 on: January 11, 2019, 02:57:27 PM »

Offline liam

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Also does anyone know what the deal is with fixating on whether it's concrete or not? It's a weird theme I keep seeing popping up, like Trump's recent obsession with "steel slats". The easiest answer seems like "industry lobbyists" but I feel like there's gotta be more to it.


Re-upping this here in case anyone has an answer. What is the deal with whether it's concrete or not mattering in any way other than basic engineering & logistics which should be just about moot in a national political debate?

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/01/trump-steel-slat-border-wall-prototype-saw.html

 

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