Author Topic: Trump On His Shutdown: (It Could Last) Months Of Even Years  (Read 6386 times)

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Re: Trump On His Shutdown: (It Could Last) Months Of Even Years
« Reply #60 on: January 10, 2019, 04:03:44 PM »

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I don’t know what I find more hilarious. Trump, the GOAT himself, or the squealing leftist reaction to everything he does. Hilarious.

“Trump on HIS shutdown”

Bahaha

I'm not laughing much about it, but I think I generally agree with you on this one.

We have our child-President holding his breath till he gets what he wants, while mom and dad smile condescendingly while trying to outsmart their child. 

It's ugly and shameful on both sides, IMO.

I heard a republican congressman (I think Fitzpatrick)  this AM on CNN do a nice job scolding both sides.  Basically saying that there is a lot of potential agreement possible if it wasn't so important to each side that they not give the other side a "win". 

What a great opportunity for Dems to act like real adults.  Instead they think they can "win" so they play the all or nothing game.  Trump's "bye-bye" is beyond anything we should expect from a leader, but Pelosi had an absolute "gimme" moment that she squandered.   When Trump says will you give me a Wall if I agree to open the government? Don't say "absolutely not" --- you knucklehead!    Say "Yes" as long as we use "Wall" to describe a non-concrete barrier that will only be used in strategic places -- and will be a addressed as part of a broader plan for border security.

Can't you just say what is right rather than play games?  Give the child a "win" and come out looking like an adult rather than getting right in his sandbox.   Man this is frustrating.   

THere's actually a chance for REPUBLICAN senators to act like adults, and actually pass the budget they initially did pass, just doing so to override a Trump veto.

Re: Trump On His Shutdown: (It Could Last) Months Of Even Years
« Reply #61 on: January 10, 2019, 04:08:14 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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We have our child-President holding his breath till he gets what he wants, while mom and dad smile condescendingly while trying to outsmart their child. 

It's ugly and shameful on both sides, IMO.

I heard a republican congressman (I think Fitzpatrick)  this AM on CNN do a nice job scolding both sides.  Basically saying that there is a lot of potential agreement possible if it wasn't so important to each side that they not give the other side a "win". 

What a great opportunity for Dems to act like real adults.  Instead they think they can "win" so they play the all or nothing game.  Trump's "bye-bye" is beyond anything we should expect from a leader, but Pelosi had an absolute "gimme" moment that she squandered.   When Trump says will you give me a Wall if I agree to open the government? Don't say "absolutely not" --- you knucklehead!    Say "Yes" as long as we use "Wall" to describe a non-concrete barrier that will only be used in strategic places -- and will be a addressed as part of a broader plan for border security.

Most "adults" (to use the analogy) figure out pretty fast that rewarding a child for misbehavior is an surefire way to ensure more and more extreme misbehavior in the future.  Like Grandma fairweather used to say, you've gotta love your kids more to say "no" to them than "yes".

Also does anyone know what the deal is with fixating on whether it's concrete or not? It's a weird theme I keep seeing popping up, like Trump's recent obsession with "steel slats". The easiest answer seems like "industry lobbyists" but I feel like there's gotta be more to it.


Quote
Can't you just say what is right rather than play games?  Give the child a "win" and come out looking like an adult rather than getting right in his sandbox.   Man this is frustrating.     

Not funding the wall to reward shutting down the government is what's right, and consistently, clearly refusing to do so is the opposite of playing games. And if you've followed politics for long you should know caving doesn't make them look like adults, it makes them look weak and ineffectual to both opponents and supporters. I respect the frustration but it's one side driving this; the other has no responsibility to roll over for them, and a lot of good reasons not to.


Re: Trump On His Shutdown: (It Could Last) Months Of Even Years
« Reply #63 on: January 10, 2019, 04:28:37 PM »

Offline JSD

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I don’t know what I find more hilarious. Trump, the GOAT himself, or the squealing leftist reaction to everything he does. Hilarious.

“Trump on HIS shutdown”

Bahaha

Trump, in his own words: "If we don't get what we want ... I will shut down the government. And I am proud to shut down the government for border security.... I will take the mantle. I will be the one to shut it down. I'm not going to blame you for it."

It is his shutdown. I made the title you're mocking, and I guess I'm wondering what's funny about it? I'm confused I guess because it seems like you're just out here trolling people who disagree with you.

Big Alpha Trump said this is the context of smacking around Pelosi and Shumer during that embarrassing public display in front of the media - The one where gutless Democrats were attempting to move the conversation into a private room, while the alpha dog Trump wanted transparency. Trump was responding to Pelosi’s  “we should not have Trump shutdown” in a “I’m not afraid of that label, this needs to happen”, sort of way. Of course, that gets taken and run with as if he held a press conference and made these statements independently...

CB Forums has become such a circle jerk echo chamber when it comes to Trump that it’s embarrassing. And to be clear, I’m against the wall. The problem is the drug war and the welfare state, not illegal immigrants. From an economic standpoint, the sole purpose of the drugs laws is to protect the drug cartels monopoly. When you subsidize something you get more of it, so when you offer people free education, healthcare, they will want to come here.

Until we address the disease the symptoms need to be dealt with, the wall is dealing with the symptoms. That’s where the American people are with this. They clearly want the wall.

Re: Trump On His Shutdown: (It Could Last) Months Of Even Years
« Reply #64 on: January 10, 2019, 04:33:53 PM »

Online blink

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I don’t know what I find more hilarious. Trump, the GOAT himself, or the squealing leftist reaction to everything he does. Hilarious.

“Trump on HIS shutdown”

Bahaha

Trump, in his own words: "If we don't get what we want ... I will shut down the government. And I am proud to shut down the government for border security.... I will take the mantle. I will be the one to shut it down. I'm not going to blame you for it."

It is his shutdown. I made the title you're mocking, and I guess I'm wondering what's funny about it? I'm confused I guess because it seems like you're just out here trolling people who disagree with you.


CB Forums has become such a circle jerk echo chamber when it comes to Trump that it’s embarrassing.

lol, so when reasonable people call out the bald faced lies from our joke of a President, then we are in an echo chamber?  That is such complete bs.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 04:42:22 PM by blink »

Re: Trump On His Shutdown: (It Could Last) Months Of Even Years
« Reply #65 on: January 10, 2019, 04:41:33 PM »

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Well, the "CJ" term was certainly unnecessary & has been dealt with before when used on these forums. 

Let's try & take this thing out of the gutter or its getting locked.


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Re: Trump On His Shutdown: (It Could Last) Months Of Even Years
« Reply #66 on: January 10, 2019, 04:49:23 PM »

Online Neurotic Guy

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We have our child-President holding his breath till he gets what he wants, while mom and dad smile condescendingly while trying to outsmart their child. 

It's ugly and shameful on both sides, IMO.

I heard a republican congressman (I think Fitzpatrick)  this AM on CNN do a nice job scolding both sides.  Basically saying that there is a lot of potential agreement possible if it wasn't so important to each side that they not give the other side a "win". 

What a great opportunity for Dems to act like real adults.  Instead they think they can "win" so they play the all or nothing game.  Trump's "bye-bye" is beyond anything we should expect from a leader, but Pelosi had an absolute "gimme" moment that she squandered.   When Trump says will you give me a Wall if I agree to open the government? Don't say "absolutely not" --- you knucklehead!    Say "Yes" as long as we use "Wall" to describe a non-concrete barrier that will only be used in strategic places -- and will be a addressed as part of a broader plan for border security.

Most "adults" (to use the analogy) figure out pretty fast that rewarding a child for misbehavior is an surefire way to ensure more and more extreme misbehavior in the future.  Like Grandma fairweather used to say, you've gotta love your kids more to say "no" to them than "yes".

Also does anyone know what the deal is with fixating on whether it's concrete or not? It's a weird theme I keep seeing popping up, like Trump's recent obsession with "steel slats". The easiest answer seems like "industry lobbyists" but I feel like there's gotta be more to it.


Quote
Can't you just say what is right rather than play games?  Give the child a "win" and come out looking like an adult rather than getting right in his sandbox.   Man this is frustrating.     

Not funding the wall to reward shutting down the government is what's right, and consistently, clearly refusing to do so is the opposite of playing games. And if you've followed politics for long you should know caving doesn't make them look like adults, it makes them look weak and ineffectual to both opponents and supporters. I respect the frustration but it's one side driving this; the other has no responsibility to roll over for them, and a lot of good reasons not to.

Don't misconstrue my point like that. And you should know politics well enough to know that the process of compromise is not always about resisting the "cave in" and holding firm -- in fact, it's more about finding win-wins than it is about holding out for win-loss.  Don't lecture me on this point -- I've lived through many decades of observing true compromise vs true obstruction. The "win" is not as simple as it is in your attempt to school me.  It is absolutely "adult" to acknowledge your own part in a childish process and to not be afraid to give your child a "win" (so to speak) if in fact the child's point of view has merit.  Which in fact, in this case, the child's POV does.  Trump shouldn't be rewarded for childish behavior (which in fact he won't be by the American people if the Dems act like adults), but good parents recognize and validate their children's POV all the time as they clearly communicate their own POV-- Grandma Fairweather knows this too.  There is universal agreement that a border barrier in strategic places is PART of the broad solution to the border/immigration issue.  It's OK to acknowledge this and put on the table exactly what it is you want (what is a correct and viable solution) rather than play games with it. 

And... despite my perhaps misguided metaphor, Nancy and Chuck are not Little Donald's parents -- and are not responsible for teaching him a lesson. They are responsible for promoting good policy. 

Re: Trump On His Shutdown: (It Could Last) Months Of Even Years
« Reply #67 on: January 10, 2019, 04:49:28 PM »

Offline kraidstar

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I don’t know what I find more hilarious. Trump, the GOAT himself, or the squealing leftist reaction to everything he does. Hilarious.

“Trump on HIS shutdown”

Bahaha

Trump, in his own words: "If we don't get what we want ... I will shut down the government. And I am proud to shut down the government for border security.... I will take the mantle. I will be the one to shut it down. I'm not going to blame you for it."

It is his shutdown. I made the title you're mocking, and I guess I'm wondering what's funny about it? I'm confused I guess because it seems like you're just out here trolling people who disagree with you.

Big Alpha Trump said this is the context of smacking around Pelosi and Shumer during that embarrassing public display in front of the media - The one where gutless Democrats were attempting to move the conversation into a private room, while the alpha dog Trump wanted transparency. Trump was responding to Pelosi’s  “we should not have Trump shutdown” in a “I’m not afraid of that label, this needs to happen”, sort of way. Of course, that gets taken and run with as if he held a press conference and made these statements independently...

CB Forums has become such a circle jerk echo chamber when it comes to Trump that it’s embarrassing. And to be clear, I’m against the wall. The problem is the drug war and the welfare state, not illegal immigrants. From an economic standpoint, the sole purpose of the drugs laws is to protect the drug cartels monopoly. When you subsidize something you get more of it, so when you offer people free education, healthcare, they will want to come here.

Until we address the disease the symptoms need to be dealt with, the wall is dealing with the symptoms. That’s where the American people are with this. They clearly want the wall.

I agree those are huge problems. Problems the wall will do nothing to address.

Cartels will still smuggle drugs through places like El Paso via legal check points and tunnels. The wall isn't going to stop that. They know what they are doing, smuggling is literally their job.

And drug use usually stems from either poverty or legal prescription addiction. The pharmaceutical companies certainly haven't been held accountable for creating a generation of opiate addicts starting in the 90's. There is greater oversight now but the problem does persist.

As for poverty, the wall isn't going to do anything to solve the "welfare state." There are few illegals where I live, but loads of poor white people. How does keeping a few extra Mexicans out of the Southwest help a downtrodden white guy in Maine whose only job prospect is making $10 an hour watching the automated checkout registers at the local Wal-mart?

Big business moved many jobs overseas and automated many others, and are reaping enormous profits. Trump's tax cut gives them even greater profits, and, due to the loss of tax revenue, a bigger piece of the overall economic pie. The wall is not going to fix such blatant disparities, and it will not revitalize the middle class.

Re: Trump On His Shutdown: (It Could Last) Months Of Even Years
« Reply #68 on: January 10, 2019, 05:09:36 PM »

Online Neurotic Guy

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I don’t know what I find more hilarious. Trump, the GOAT himself, or the squealing leftist reaction to everything he does. Hilarious.

“Trump on HIS shutdown”

Bahaha

Trump, in his own words: "If we don't get what we want ... I will shut down the government. And I am proud to shut down the government for border security.... I will take the mantle. I will be the one to shut it down. I'm not going to blame you for it."

It is his shutdown. I made the title you're mocking, and I guess I'm wondering what's funny about it? I'm confused I guess because it seems like you're just out here trolling people who disagree with you.

Big Alpha Trump said this is the context of smacking around Pelosi and Shumer during that embarrassing public display in front of the media - The one where gutless Democrats were attempting to move the conversation into a private room, while the alpha dog Trump wanted transparency. Trump was responding to Pelosi’s  “we should not have Trump shutdown” in a “I’m not afraid of that label, this needs to happen”, sort of way. Of course, that gets taken and run with as if he held a press conference and made these statements independently...

CB Forums has become such a circle jerk echo chamber when it comes to Trump that it’s embarrassing. And to be clear, I’m against the wall. The problem is the drug war and the welfare state, not illegal immigrants. From an economic standpoint, the sole purpose of the drugs laws is to protect the drug cartels monopoly. When you subsidize something you get more of it, so when you offer people free education, healthcare, they will want to come here.

Until we address the disease the symptoms need to be dealt with, the wall is dealing with the symptoms. That’s where the American people are with this. They clearly want the wall.

You constantly surprise me.  Sometimes we end up on the same side of issues -- but often for different reasons -- lol.    I agree with you on the Wall -- if by "Wall" you mean a 2000 mile border barrier which my understanding from those I've read who are far more knowledgeable than me is not necessary.  On the other hand, SOME border barrier is probably necessary as part of the plan.  I don't like the harshness of a Wall -- and hope that technology and human surveillance can serve to effectively put order to border crossings. I am generally not one who thinks illegal immigration is a crisis issue, but I do think that we should be helping central American countries -- getting to the source of why folks want to make the journey to America.

I don't think free college is a good idea, but you said "free education" -- I assume you mean college and not suggesting that we should be cautious about providing free education to children.  Re: healthcare, you may be correct that it's a draw if we provide universal healthcare.  But the more I think about this issue, the more I think universal healthcare is the right thing to do.  I guess just from the standpoint that decent healthcare shouldn't be for the rich, the very poor and the elderly, but also attainable for those stuck in the middle.

Re: Trump On His Shutdown: (It Could Last) Months Of Even Years
« Reply #69 on: January 10, 2019, 05:21:11 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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We have our child-President holding his breath till he gets what he wants, while mom and dad smile condescendingly while trying to outsmart their child. 

It's ugly and shameful on both sides, IMO.

I heard a republican congressman (I think Fitzpatrick)  this AM on CNN do a nice job scolding both sides.  Basically saying that there is a lot of potential agreement possible if it wasn't so important to each side that they not give the other side a "win". 

What a great opportunity for Dems to act like real adults.  Instead they think they can "win" so they play the all or nothing game.  Trump's "bye-bye" is beyond anything we should expect from a leader, but Pelosi had an absolute "gimme" moment that she squandered.   When Trump says will you give me a Wall if I agree to open the government? Don't say "absolutely not" --- you knucklehead!    Say "Yes" as long as we use "Wall" to describe a non-concrete barrier that will only be used in strategic places -- and will be a addressed as part of a broader plan for border security.

Most "adults" (to use the analogy) figure out pretty fast that rewarding a child for misbehavior is an surefire way to ensure more and more extreme misbehavior in the future.  Like Grandma fairweather used to say, you've gotta love your kids more to say "no" to them than "yes".

Also does anyone know what the deal is with fixating on whether it's concrete or not? It's a weird theme I keep seeing popping up, like Trump's recent obsession with "steel slats". The easiest answer seems like "industry lobbyists" but I feel like there's gotta be more to it.


Quote
Can't you just say what is right rather than play games?  Give the child a "win" and come out looking like an adult rather than getting right in his sandbox.   Man this is frustrating.     

Not funding the wall to reward shutting down the government is what's right, and consistently, clearly refusing to do so is the opposite of playing games. And if you've followed politics for long you should know caving doesn't make them look like adults, it makes them look weak and ineffectual to both opponents and supporters. I respect the frustration but it's one side driving this; the other has no responsibility to roll over for them, and a lot of good reasons not to.

Don't misconstrue my point like that. And you should know politics well enough to know that the process of compromise is not always about resisting the "cave in" and holding firm -- in fact, it's more about finding win-wins than it is about holding out for win-loss.  Don't lecture me on this point -- I've lived through many decades of observing true compromise vs true obstruction. The "win" is not as simple as it is in your attempt to school me.  It is absolutely "adult" to acknowledge your own part in a childish process and to not be afraid to give your child a "win" (so to speak) if in fact the child's point of view has merit.  Which in fact, in this case, the child's POV does.  Trump shouldn't be rewarded for childish behavior (which in fact he won't be by the American people if the Dems act like adults), but good parents recognize and validate their children's POV all the time as they clearly communicate their own POV-- Grandma Fairweather knows this too.  There is universal agreement that a border barrier in strategic places is PART of the broad solution to the border/immigration issue.  It's OK to acknowledge this and put on the table exactly what it is you want (what is a correct and viable solution) rather than play games with it. 

And... despite my perhaps misguided metaphor, Nancy and Chuck are not Little Donald's parents -- and are not responsible for teaching him a lesson. They are responsible for promoting good policy.

I don't believe I was misconstruing your point, though I thought the real point was to express frustration. But more importantly whether we call them adults or not changes nothing about the incentives created by rewarding destructive behavior - it will become routine and more extreme. Heck it's starting to get there in spite of not actually gaining concessions, with only political incentives of dubious value. And again, unilaterally from one side.

I think on the "valid POV" point that perhaps you're conflating the issue of whether to fund a wall at all vs the deliberate use of a government shutdown to compel the opposing party to do it. We probably disagree on both, but hopefully we can agree that, like Sophomore said, the right way to do it is to pass a bill into law, and if you can't, win enough elections on the issue until you can. Not holding a functioning government hostage, with all the chaos and misery it causes, with the side without the hostage inexplicably being the one responsible for ending it. That's not a valid POV and should never be treated as one.

But even outside of the process the Dems already offered $25 billion in funding for DACA legalization last year, which the administration rejected. I'm strongly opposed to that deal, but that's what a "genuine" (heavy air quotes bc it's politics) attempt at compromise looks like. Not one-sided concessions under duress.

Quote
Trump shouldn't be rewarded for childish behavior (which in fact he won't be by the American people if the Dems act like adults)

I just don't know how anyone could genuinely argue this when the entire political history of Trump, and a large part of recent American political history overall, is the American people rewarding increasingly childish political behavior. 

Re: Trump On His Shutdown: (It Could Last) Months Of Even Years
« Reply #70 on: January 10, 2019, 05:29:04 PM »

Offline kraidstar

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I don’t know what I find more hilarious. Trump, the GOAT himself, or the squealing leftist reaction to everything he does. Hilarious.

“Trump on HIS shutdown”

Bahaha

Trump, in his own words: "If we don't get what we want ... I will shut down the government. And I am proud to shut down the government for border security.... I will take the mantle. I will be the one to shut it down. I'm not going to blame you for it."

It is his shutdown. I made the title you're mocking, and I guess I'm wondering what's funny about it? I'm confused I guess because it seems like you're just out here trolling people who disagree with you.

Big Alpha Trump said this is the context of smacking around Pelosi and Shumer during that embarrassing public display in front of the media - The one where gutless Democrats were attempting to move the conversation into a private room, while the alpha dog Trump wanted transparency. Trump was responding to Pelosi’s  “we should not have Trump shutdown” in a “I’m not afraid of that label, this needs to happen”, sort of way. Of course, that gets taken and run with as if he held a press conference and made these statements independently...

CB Forums has become such a circle jerk echo chamber when it comes to Trump that it’s embarrassing. And to be clear, I’m against the wall. The problem is the drug war and the welfare state, not illegal immigrants. From an economic standpoint, the sole purpose of the drugs laws is to protect the drug cartels monopoly. When you subsidize something you get more of it, so when you offer people free education, healthcare, they will want to come here.

Until we address the disease the symptoms need to be dealt with, the wall is dealing with the symptoms. That’s where the American people are with this. They clearly want the wall.

You constantly surprise me.  Sometimes we end up on the same side of issues -- but often for different reasons -- lol.    I agree with you on the Wall -- if by "Wall" you mean a 2000 mile border barrier which my understanding from those I've read who are far more knowledgeable than me is not necessary.  On the other hand, SOME border barrier is probably necessary as part of the plan.  I don't like the harshness of a Wall -- and hope that technology and human surveillance can serve to effectively put order to border crossings. I am generally not one who thinks illegal immigration is a crisis issue, but I do think that we should be helping central American countries -- getting to the source of why folks want to make the journey to America.

I don't think free college is a good idea, but you said "free education" -- I assume you mean college and not suggesting that we should be cautious about providing free education to children.  Re: healthcare, you may be correct that it's a draw if we provide universal healthcare.  But the more I think about this issue, the more I think universal healthcare is the right thing to do.  I guess just from the standpoint that decent healthcare shouldn't be for the rich, the very poor and the elderly, but also attainable for those stuck in the middle.

This is really the crux of the issue, TP

It seems unlikely to me that there will be any magic solution to either illegal immigration or the drug war. But I'd rather have more border cops and surveillance tech than a useless monument.

Trained and well-paid human beings are much better countermeasures to other trained human beings than an inert object. Having more border officers also creates permanent jobs while the wall does not.

However the wall is politically symbolic, which is why Trump keeps fruitlessly pushing it. But it is not the best investment of our money. It's far more beneficial to his Cult of Personality than it is to the nation.

Re: Trump On His Shutdown: (It Could Last) Months Of Even Years
« Reply #71 on: January 10, 2019, 05:39:45 PM »

Offline kraidstar

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We have our child-President holding his breath till he gets what he wants, while mom and dad smile condescendingly while trying to outsmart their child. 

It's ugly and shameful on both sides, IMO.

I heard a republican congressman (I think Fitzpatrick)  this AM on CNN do a nice job scolding both sides.  Basically saying that there is a lot of potential agreement possible if it wasn't so important to each side that they not give the other side a "win". 

What a great opportunity for Dems to act like real adults.  Instead they think they can "win" so they play the all or nothing game.  Trump's "bye-bye" is beyond anything we should expect from a leader, but Pelosi had an absolute "gimme" moment that she squandered.   When Trump says will you give me a Wall if I agree to open the government? Don't say "absolutely not" --- you knucklehead!    Say "Yes" as long as we use "Wall" to describe a non-concrete barrier that will only be used in strategic places -- and will be a addressed as part of a broader plan for border security.

Most "adults" (to use the analogy) figure out pretty fast that rewarding a child for misbehavior is an surefire way to ensure more and more extreme misbehavior in the future.  Like Grandma fairweather used to say, you've gotta love your kids more to say "no" to them than "yes".

Also does anyone know what the deal is with fixating on whether it's concrete or not? It's a weird theme I keep seeing popping up, like Trump's recent obsession with "steel slats". The easiest answer seems like "industry lobbyists" but I feel like there's gotta be more to it.


Quote
Can't you just say what is right rather than play games?  Give the child a "win" and come out looking like an adult rather than getting right in his sandbox.   Man this is frustrating.     

Not funding the wall to reward shutting down the government is what's right, and consistently, clearly refusing to do so is the opposite of playing games. And if you've followed politics for long you should know caving doesn't make them look like adults, it makes them look weak and ineffectual to both opponents and supporters. I respect the frustration but it's one side driving this; the other has no responsibility to roll over for them, and a lot of good reasons not to.

Don't misconstrue my point like that. And you should know politics well enough to know that the process of compromise is not always about resisting the "cave in" and holding firm -- in fact, it's more about finding win-wins than it is about holding out for win-loss.  Don't lecture me on this point -- I've lived through many decades of observing true compromise vs true obstruction. The "win" is not as simple as it is in your attempt to school me.  It is absolutely "adult" to acknowledge your own part in a childish process and to not be afraid to give your child a "win" (so to speak) if in fact the child's point of view has merit.  Which in fact, in this case, the child's POV does.  Trump shouldn't be rewarded for childish behavior (which in fact he won't be by the American people if the Dems act like adults), but good parents recognize and validate their children's POV all the time as they clearly communicate their own POV-- Grandma Fairweather knows this too.  There is universal agreement that a border barrier in strategic places is PART of the broad solution to the border/immigration issue.  It's OK to acknowledge this and put on the table exactly what it is you want (what is a correct and viable solution) rather than play games with it. 

And... despite my perhaps misguided metaphor, Nancy and Chuck are not Little Donald's parents -- and are not responsible for teaching him a lesson. They are responsible for promoting good policy.

I don't believe I was misconstruing your point, though I thought the real point was to express frustration. But more importantly whether we call them adults or not changes nothing about the incentives created by rewarding destructive behavior - it will become routine and more extreme. Heck it's starting to get there in spite of not actually gaining concessions, with only political incentives of dubious value. And again, unilaterally from one side.

I think on the "valid POV" point that perhaps you're conflating the issue of whether to fund a wall at all vs the deliberate use of a government shutdown to compel the opposing party to do it. We probably disagree on both, but hopefully we can agree that, like Sophomore said, the right way to do it is to pass a bill into law, and if you can't, win enough elections on the issue until you can. Not holding a functioning government hostage, with all the chaos and misery it causes, with the side without the hostage inexplicably being the one responsible for ending it. That's not a valid POV and should never be treated as one.

But even outside of the process the Dems already offered $25 billion in funding for DACA legalization last year, which the administration rejected. I'm strongly opposed to that deal, but that's what a "genuine" (heavy air quotes bc it's politics) attempt at compromise looks like. Not one-sided concessions under duress.

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Trump shouldn't be rewarded for childish behavior (which in fact he won't be by the American people if the Dems act like adults)

I just don't know how anyone could genuinely argue this when the entire political history of Trump, and a large part of recent American political history overall, is the American people rewarding increasingly childish political behavior.

TP

After Merrick Garland it became obvious that the Dems needed to start playing hardball. Anything less is enabling and will weaken our democracy. There is nothing wrong with using leverage during negotiations so long it is done legally.

Re: Trump On His Shutdown: (It Could Last) Months Of Even Years
« Reply #72 on: January 10, 2019, 06:08:43 PM »

Online Celtics4ever

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1. Walls don’t work. Illegal immigrants have tunneled underneath and/or erected ramps up and down walls to simply drive over them. People find a way. When East Germany erected its wall, it created a military zone, staffed by booted, machine-gun carrying guards ready to shoot to kill. Yet thousands managed to make it to West Germany anyway. More to the point, do we really want to model ourselves after communist East Germany?

I disagree but I have something called facts to back me up.  Here are some facts on the german Wall, yes, thousands escaped but not through the wall.   I was stationed in Germany and was over there when it went down.   I even have a piece of it on my mantle.

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Attempts to flee across the border were carefully studied and recorded by the East German authorities to identify possible weak points. These would be addressed by strengthening the fortifications in vulnerable areas. The East German Army (NPA) and the Ministry for State Security (Stasi) carried out statistical surveys to identify trends. In one example, a study was carried out by the NPA at the end of the 1970s to review attempted "border breaches" (Grenzdurchbrüche). It found that 4,956 people had attempted to escape across the border between 1 January 1974 and 30 November 1979. Of those, 3,984 people (80.4%) were arrested by the People's Police in the Sperrzone, the outer restricted zone. 205 people (4.1%) were caught at the signal fence. Within the inner security zone, the Schutzstreifen, a further 743 people (15%) were arrested by the border guards. 48 people (1%) were stopped – i.e. killed or injured – by landmines and 43 people (0.9%) by SM-70 directional mines on the border fence. A further 67 people (1.35%) were intercepted at the border fence (shot and/or arrested). The study highlighted the effectiveness of the SM-70 as a means of stopping people getting across the fence. A total of 229 people – just 4.6% of attempted escapees, representing less than one in twenty – made it across the border fence. Of these, the largest number (129, or 55% of successful escapees) succeeded in making it across the fence in unmined sectors. 89 people (39% of escapees) managed to cross both the minefields and the border fence, but just 12 people (6% of the total) succeeded in getting past the SM-70s.[4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escape_attempts_and_victims_of_the_inner_German_border

A lot of the escapes which were 40k were at others places than the wall.  Here is some data on the Israeli Wall.

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Suicide bombings have decreased since the construction of the barrier.[7][48] Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, Hamas, and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad have been less able to conduct attacks in Israel, which have decreased in areas where the barrier has been completed.[49][50]

The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Israel Security Agency report that in 2002, there were 452 fatalities from terrorist attacks. Before the completion of the first continuous segment (July 2003) from the beginning of the Second Intifada, 73 Palestinian suicide bombings were carried out from the West Bank, killing 293 Israelis and injuring over 1,900. After the completion of the first continuous segment through the end of 2006, there were only 12 attacks based in the West Bank, killing 64 people and wounding 445.[6] Terrorist attacks declined in 2007[6] and 2008[51] to 9 in 2010.[52]

The Ministry of Foreign Affairs predicts that completion of the barrier will continue to prevent terrorist attacks[53] since "[a]n absolute halt in terrorist activities has been noticed in the West Bank areas where the fence has been constructed."[49]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_West_Bank_barrier

Now I do not think people are the Mexican Border are terrorists.   But it is clear walls work,   Castles, the great wall of China worked, and fortications used walls and barriers for this very reason.  For thousand of years they have worked so cut out the intellectual dishonesty about walls not working.   As for the tunneling, it is usually the cartels that tunnel and we catch them all the time and blow them up.  Yes, people can have ladders and nothing is 100% but iit is harder to climb a ladder than walk across empty space now isn't it? 

Did all you all know that Pres. Obama Border Security Chief for 6 months that Pres. Trump fired wants the wall. 

https://www.newsweek.com/obama-border-patrol-chief-begs-trump-stay-course-border-wall-1285825


Re: Trump On His Shutdown: (It Could Last) Months Of Even Years
« Reply #73 on: January 10, 2019, 06:26:49 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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And... despite my perhaps misguided metaphor, Nancy and Chuck are not Little Donald's parents -- and are not responsible for teaching him a lesson. They are responsible for promoting good policy.

Then they should not be funding the wall if building the wall is not good policy.

NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: Trump On His Shutdown: (It Could Last) Months Of Even Years
« Reply #74 on: January 10, 2019, 06:38:01 PM »

Online Celtics4ever

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2. Most illegal immigrants are “overstayers.” They come to the US legally — for vacations, business, to study, etc. — and then STAY past their visas. By 2012, overstayers accounted for 58% (THE MAJORITY!) of all unauthorized immigrants. A wall is meaningless here!

This is true.

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3. Walls have little impact on drugs being brought in to the US. According to the DEA, almost all drugs come in through legal points of entry,
 hidden in secret containers and/or among legit goods in tractor-trailers. A wall will have little to no impact on the influx of drugs into our country.


Partially True, but if this was true all the way why do elaborate drug tunnels go under walls?

https://drugabuse.com/featured/drug-trafficking-across-borders/

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4. It’s environmentally impractical. Walls have a hard time making it through extreme weather. For example, in 2011, a flood in Arizona washed away 40 feet of STEEL fencing. Torrential rains and raging waters do serious damage. Also, conservative sources generally do not address the environmental harm that walls create, but there is plenty of documentation available that show its potential for irreparable damage to both plant and animal life.

How can you believe that Pres. Trump cares about this issue?   It is completely non relevant to him.  You know what also causing environmental problems litter.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-immigration-usa-trash/migrant-trash-piles-up-at-remote-u-s-mexico-border-areas-idUSTRE80S0QB20120129
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5. A wall would forces the U.S. government to take land from private citizens in eminent domain battles. Private citizens own much of the land slated for the wall. The costs of the government snatching private land — and the legal battles that would ensue — are incalculable.

Liberals acting like they care about government snatching land this is priceless.   Thanks for the laugh, usually they never care about the government acting big and telling people what is good for them.   But add Trump and all of the sudden their worried about the rights of the individual citizen. Priceless.

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6. Border patrol agents don’t like concrete or steel walls because they block surveillance capabilities. In other words, they can’t mobilize correctly to meet challenges. So in many ways, a wall makes their job more difficult.

Except this is a false narrative in fact 89% said "wall system in strategic locations is necessary to securing the border.”  Now I know that this not the entire border, But what facts are you basing your statement on.  I have seen the  Washington Post article and that article omits much.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/apr/2/border-patrol-agents-back-trump-wall-survey-finds/
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7. Border patrol agents say, “Walls are meaningless without agents and technology to back them up.” Are we prepared to pour countless billions annually — after the wall is built — to create a nearly 2,000 mile, militarized 24-hour surveillance border operation? Because according to patrol agents, that’s the only way a wall would work. Again, are we really, going to use East Germany, a brutal communist state, as our model here?

Everyone knows this but the combination of wall plus agents is better than agents no?

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8. Where walls have been built, there was “no discernable impact on the influx of unauthorized aliens.” In other words, they came in elsewhere, primarily where natural barriers such as water or mountainous regions precluded a wall.

I have refuted this see above.   Also, other countries use them to great effect

https://allthatsinteresting.com/modern-border-walls-photos

I would present that many in this thread have a definite confirmation bias against any Pres. Trump does or says.

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The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone and online survey finds that 52% of Likely U.S. Voters believe the construction of a wall is likely to slow or stop illegal immigration across the U.S.-Mexico border, with 36% who say it’s Very Likely to work. Forty-five percent (45%) say a border wall is unlikely to slow or stop illegal immigration, including 27% who say it’s Not At All Likely to do so. (To see survey question wording, click here.)

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/immigration/january_2019/voters_see_border_wall_as_effective_but_no_emergency

I suppose you though Nancy and Chucks's rebuttal was effective but voters do not.   Good luck with that outside the coastal areas of the USA.

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. Trump’s $5 billion is a laughable drop in the bucket for what would ACTUALLY be needed. For example, according to the Cato Institute: An estimate for a border wall area that only covered 700 miles was originally 1.2 billion. How much did it REALLY cost? SEVEN BILLION. And that’s only for 700 miles. Whatever we think it’s going to cost, experience shows us we have to multiply it by more than 500%.

Are you admitting it is needed?  JK.   I agree.

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0. According to MIT engineers, the wall would cost $31.2 billion. Homeland Security estimates it at $22 billion. Given the pattern of spending mentioned in number 10 (plus Murphy’s Law), that means we’re really talking about pouring endless billions into something that doesn’t even work. And, of course, we taxpayers will be footing the bill, not Mexico. Given all the drawbacks, is that REALLY the best use of our taxes?
[/quote]

Finally some facts, thank you.

So tax reparations, the GAO says this costs between 2 and 19 billion a year but no really knows.

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GAO found that: (1) illegal aliens in the United States generate more in costs than revenues to federal, state, and local governments combined; (2) estimates of the national net cost of illegal aliens vary greatly, ranging from $2 billion to $19 billion; (3) a great deal of uncertainty remains about the national fiscal impact of illegal aliens, because little data exists on illegal aliens' use of public services and tax payments; (4) displacement costs and revenue estimates account for much of the variation in the estimates of the national net costs of illegal aliens; (5) the estimates are difficult to assess because the studies do not always clearly explain the criteria used to determine which costs and revenues are appropriate to include in the estimates; and (6) the cost estimates could be improved by recognizing the difficulties inherent in collecting data on a hidden population, focusing on key characteristics of illegal aliens, and explaining more clearly which costs and revenues are appropriate to include in such estimates.

https://www.gao.gov/products/hehs-95-133

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Cost per Illegal Immigrant
To estimate the fiscal cost of illegal immigrants in our prior analysis we applied the average net fiscal impact (taxes paid minus costs) of immigrants by education from a NAS study to the education level of illegal border-crossers. Based on that analysis, we estimate that each crosser creates a net cost of $74,722 (taxes paid minus costs) during his or her lifetime, excluding costs for their U.S.-born children. The figures from the NAS study are in 2012 dollars; converting them to 2018 dollars would raise them to $82,191. This estimate means that for every 100,000 illegal immigrants prevented from crossing illegally, it would save taxpayers $8.2 billion over the illegal immigrants' lifetimes.

Illegal Crossings in the Future
The number of apprehensions fluctuates from year to year. The nearly 400,000 in 2018 was more than the 303,916 reported in 2017, but slightly less than the less than 408,870 in 2016. There is no way to know for certain what the level will be in the future; however, the lowest number in recent years was 2017, at more than 300,000. The scale of illegal migration along the southern border remains enormous. Illegal migration through the southern border is very likely to remain an attractive option for significant numbers of people throughout the world in the foreseeable future.

Cost of a Border Wall
The bill passed by the House of Representatives on December 20 contained $5 billion in wall funding. With this and the above numbers it is possible to determine if the wall can pay for itself. If the number of illegal crossing in 2018 was to continue for the next 10 years, the lifetime net fiscal drain from the 1.7 to two million new illegal immigrants would be $140 billion to $164 billion — $82,191 multiplied by the cost of each successful crosser. For a wall costing $5 billion to pay for itself, it would have to stop or deter 3 to 4 percent (about 60,000) of the expected successful illegal crossers over the next decade.

Alternative Assumptions
We can, of course, put different numbers into our model and see the results. If we assume that the number of successful illegal crossings in the next decade without a wall will be half (850,000 to one million) the 2018 level, and we further assume that the cost of each illegal crosser is half ($41,096) of what we have estimated, then the wall would have to stop or deter 12 to 14 percent of expected crossers in the next decade rather than the 3 to 4 percent. Alternatively, if the costs of illegal immigrants are higher than we have estimated and the level of future illegal crossings is also higher, then a wall would have to stop or deter a smaller share of than the 3 to 4 percent we report. But the range of reasonable assumptions indicates that a wall would not have to come close to being anywhere near 100 percent effective to pay for itself. This would be true even if a wall cost twice as much. A wall that is only partially effective could pay for itself by offsetting the cost that otherwise successful illegal crossers would create.

https://cis.org/Camarota/Can-Wall-Pay-Itself-Update

I posted the counter facts but face it no one really knows.   Cost is the most important thing to me will it save the US money and I don't think any one knows.   I have stopped a hate crime in Texas, where some red necks were beating a latino.   I gave them a taste of their own medicine but was also injured but I saved him and held the field so to say.

The thing is about media is they all have an angle today.   I also think a lot of the honesty of scholar at colleges are suspect nowadays too.    Thanks for the information, at present it did not sway my mind but ridiculing walls as effective is intellectually dishonest.

 

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