Author Topic: Shockingly, I agree with Alexandria Oscasio-Cortez on something...  (Read 1468 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Shockingly, I agree with Alexandria Oscasio-Cortez on something...
« Reply #30 on: December 26, 2018, 12:45:01 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

  • In The Rafters
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 42178
  • Tommy Points: 2485
  • You ain't the boss of the freakin' bedclothes.
The wall thing is far more popular than the media presents if you study some polls.

Present them, friend. From what I've seen, about 40% of Americans are okay with some idea of a 'Wall' (the number changes depending on how The Wall is presented), while about 60% do not want a shut down because of The Wall.

Well, wanting a wall and not wanting a government shutdown as the means to get that wall are not mutually exclusive. There's most certainly some overlap there.

Oh yeah obviously, they're two different questions. I should've presented that differently. That's my bad.

Quote
Personally, I think building a 'bigger better' wall than we currently have is a waste, and shutting down the government to get this wall is irresponsible. But we shouldn't be pretending there is any sort of consensus, or mandate, against a wall, either.

What constitutes a mandate?

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: Shockingly, I agree with Alexandria Oscasio-Cortez on something...
« Reply #31 on: December 26, 2018, 12:55:48 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11394
  • Tommy Points: 1339
The wall thing is far more popular than the media presents if you study some polls.

Present them, friend. From what I've seen, about 40% of Americans are okay with some idea of a 'Wall' (the number changes depending on how The Wall is presented), while about 60% do not want a shut down because of The Wall.

Well, wanting a wall and not wanting a government shutdown as the means to get that wall are not mutually exclusive. There's most certainly some overlap there.

Oh yeah obviously, they're two different questions. I should've presented that differently. That's my bad.

Quote
Personally, I think building a 'bigger better' wall than we currently have is a waste, and shutting down the government to get this wall is irresponsible. But we shouldn't be pretending there is any sort of consensus, or mandate, against a wall, either.

What constitutes a mandate?

I felt like when the R's had all the power (House, Senate, POTUS) that was enough to infer a mandate. With that power split now, obviously neither side can make any such claim.

Re: Shockingly, I agree with Alexandria Oscasio-Cortez on something...
« Reply #32 on: December 26, 2018, 01:10:27 PM »

Offline Ogaju

  • Danny Ainge
  • **********
  • Posts: 10080
  • Tommy Points: 1090
She is right, however the President ran on building a wall and the people elected him, in part, to do it.  It needs to be built.  I personally think it is a terrible idea, but when someone is elected and then tries to do what he said he was going to do, Congress shouldn't get in the way of the will of the people and they should do it.

here is the practical problem with the electoral college system, how do you reconcile your statement 'the people' with the election numbers?

Re: Shockingly, I agree with Alexandria Oscasio-Cortez on something...
« Reply #33 on: December 26, 2018, 01:13:31 PM »

Online Celtics4ever

  • Kevin Garnett
  • *****************
  • Posts: 17409
  • Tommy Points: 1135
Quote
Present them, friend. From what I've seen, about 40% of Americans are okay with some idea of a 'Wall' (the number changes depending on how The Wall is presented), while about 60% do not want a shut down because of The Wall.

Gladly;

Quote
There are two things we could do to provide more meaningful reporting. First, when addressing polls on political topics, we should disclose the breakdown of Democrats and Republicans upfront. To state the obvious: findings from a sample that’s made up of 98 percent Republicans will be entirely different than findings from a sample of 98 percent Democrats. How can meaning be put behind results on any political topic without the partisan makeup of the sample being considered?

Second, our reporting could include opposing findings and trends, if they exist. For example, in the most recent Pew poll, “three-quarters (74 percent) of Republicans and Republican-leaners supported a border wall” and that support had grown substantially in recent months. Conservative Republican support for a wall was up nine points since Trump was elected President (from 71 percent to 80 percent).

Support also grew among moderate and liberal Republicans (from 51 percent to 60 percent). An accurate headline could just as well have been: “Poll shows growing Republican support for a wall under a Trump presidency.

https://thehill.com/opinion/immigration/350217-americans-support-a-border-wall-more-than-the-media-wants-to-believe.

This was back in July;

Quote
But, that same poll shows that 51% of Americans believe that a wall along the United States southern border is a good thing, even if that structure does not span coast to coast.

According to the poll, 32% of Americans believe that “a wall along the U.S. Mexican border” is a “good idea that can probably be completed.” 19% of those polled answered that the wall is a “a good idea that should be tried, even if it cannot be completed.”  48% of the 2063 adults polled said the wall was a “bad idea.”

Quote
More than two-thirds (68%) of Republicans support building a border wall while 27% of independents and only 7% of Democrats agree.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2018/06/27/what-do-americans-think-about-the-wall-the-answers-may-surprise-you-only-if-you-read-drudge/?noredirect=on

Pew Polls are known to be cooked up

Quote
Sure enough, I was right. And, as is predictable, the media is taking it a step further by using their mischaracterization of the poll to discredit Trump's proposed border wall, and border security generally. Check out some of the headlines the Pew poll generated:

"Poll Finds Most Americans Oppose Wall on U.S.-Mexico Border";

"Pew: 6-in-10 oppose Donald Trump's proposal to build border wall"; and

"Big majority in poll oppose Trump's proposed wall on U.S.-Mexico border".

Of course, those who took the poll weren't responding to Trump's proposed wall. They were asked to respond to a proposal of a wall across the entire southern border, something no candidate has proposed. The media narrative is misleading, but Pew should have expected this result and planned against it with better, or additional, questions. If truth was the goal, Pew would be calling on the media to correct the headlines. If accurate reporting was the goal, the media wouldn't be writing these headlines in the first place.

A more accurate headline would be: "Americans Don't Support a Wall Across the Entire Southern Border and Still May Support Trump's 1,000-Mile Wall, but We Just Don't Know Because Pew Didn't Ask".

https://cis.org/Feere/Media-Mislead-Pew-Poll-about-Border-Wall

Both sides of the media lie and this is a clear case of the left media misrepresenting of a poll.  The right does it too.

I am in favor of Cortez 's suggestion about the government shut down because we might see clear compromise.   \

As it stands now, the shutdown will mainly affect federal employees and little else because the government is funded next year in many departments.  So this is a game by both sides that fools many those in favor of the wall will blame Dems, and those opposed will blame Pres. Trump.   People can't think beyond their tribalism.  Both sides are trying to rile up their base, but her solution to the problem is a good one.

« Last Edit: December 26, 2018, 01:21:49 PM by Celtics4ever »

Re: Shockingly, I agree with Alexandria Oscasio-Cortez on something...
« Reply #34 on: December 26, 2018, 01:18:59 PM »

Online heyvik

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1390
  • Tommy Points: 56
Quote
Present them, friend. From what I've seen, about 40% of Americans are okay with some idea of a 'Wall' (the number changes depending on how The Wall is presented), while about 60% do not want a shut down because of The Wall.

Gladly;

Quote
There are two things we could do to provide more meaningful reporting. First, when addressing polls on political topics, we should disclose the breakdown of Democrats and Republicans upfront. To state the obvious: findings from a sample that’s made up of 98 percent Republicans will be entirely different than findings from a sample of 98 percent Democrats. How can meaning be put behind results on any political topic without the partisan makeup of the sample being considered?

Second, our reporting could include opposing findings and trends, if they exist. For example, in the most recent Pew poll, “three-quarters (74 percent) of Republicans and Republican-leaners supported a border wall” and that support had grown substantially in recent months. Conservative Republican support for a wall was up nine points since Trump was elected President (from 71 percent to 80 percent).

Support also grew among moderate and liberal Republicans (from 51 percent to 60 percent). An accurate headline could just as well have been: “Poll shows growing Republican support for a wall under a Trump presidency.

https://thehill.com/opinion/immigration/350217-americans-support-a-border-wall-more-than-the-media-wants-to-believe.

Does not include Democrats and Independents....

Re: Shockingly, I agree with Alexandria Oscasio-Cortez on something...
« Reply #35 on: December 26, 2018, 01:39:33 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

  • In The Rafters
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 42178
  • Tommy Points: 2485
  • You ain't the boss of the freakin' bedclothes.
She is right, however the President ran on building a wall and the people elected him, in part, to do it.  It needs to be built.  I personally think it is a terrible idea, but when someone is elected and then tries to do what he said he was going to do, Congress shouldn't get in the way of the will of the people and they should do it.

here is the practical problem with the electoral college system, how do you reconcile your statement 'the people' with the election numbers?



The Meme is tongue in cheek, but I think it's funny.

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: Shockingly, I agree with Alexandria Oscasio-Cortez on something...
« Reply #36 on: December 26, 2018, 01:40:40 PM »

Offline Moranis

  • Global Moderator
  • Robert Parish
  • *********************
  • Posts: 21623
  • Tommy Points: 1027
She is right, however the President ran on building a wall and the people elected him, in part, to do it.  It needs to be built.  I personally think it is a terrible idea, but when someone is elected and then tries to do what he said he was going to do, Congress shouldn't get in the way of the will of the people and they should do it.

here is the practical problem with the electoral college system, how do you reconcile your statement 'the people' with the election numbers?
We've had this electoral college discussion before, but since you asked.  Republican presidential candidates don't campaign in California, New York, or Massachusetts.  They often don't campaign in Illinois.  Additionally, Republicans in those states know that their vote for the Republican candidate is absolutely meaningless so there isn't a push for them to actually vote.  The inverse is true in places like Georgia and Texas (though Texas is becoming more of a swing state as seen by O'Rourke in the last Senate vote).  So taking those results as what the people want doesn't work, because it wasn't an election where those votes were needed.  If you just made it winner take all, then the candidates would ignore 90% of the country and just focus on the major population centers.  In fact, 33% of the US population resides in just 4 states (CA, TX, FL, NY).  The election would basically be held in those 4 states, plus the states that we think of swing states that have the major population centers (PA, IL, OH, GA, MI, NC, GA, MO, WA, AZ, VA, MD, WI, IN).  There would be no reason to go anywhere else and even within all of those states, you would only have to go to the major population centers (like you go to Chicago, not southern Illinois). 

The reasonable solution is frankly the elimination of winner-take-all and elimination of gerrymandering.  If they fixed the congressional districts by eliminating gerrymandering and then had a presidential candidate win electoral votes based on the congressional districts (with the winner of the state's popular vote getting the 2 senate seat electors), it would solve a lot of the problems in the current system.  Candidates couldn't just ignore large portions of the country and the election would run more smoothly.  And by eliminating the gerrymandering it would create a far more fair system.

Re: Shockingly, I agree with Alexandria Oscasio-Cortez on something...
« Reply #37 on: December 26, 2018, 01:51:10 PM »

Offline mmmmm

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3911
  • Tommy Points: 651
Quote
Present them, friend. From what I've seen, about 40% of Americans are okay with some idea of a 'Wall' (the number changes depending on how The Wall is presented), while about 60% do not want a shut down because of The Wall.

Gladly;
...
https://thehill.com/opinion/immigration/350217-americans-support-a-border-wall-more-than-the-media-wants-to-believe.
...
https://cis.org/Feere/Media-Mislead-Pew-Poll-about-Border-Wall
...
Both sides of the media lie and this is a clear case of the left media misrepresenting of a poll.  The right does it too.

I am in favor of Cortez 's suggestion about the government shut down because we might see clear compromise.   \

As it stands now, the shutdown will mainly affect federal employees and little else because the government is funded next year in many departments.  So this is a game by both sides that fools many those in favor of the wall will blame Dems, and those opposed will blame Pres. Trump.  People can't think beyond their tribalism.  Both sides are trying to rile up their base, but her solution to the problem is a good one.

True that (the part in bold).

Two of your citations (The Hill piece and the cis.org Feere piece) are based on the same premise:  the complaint that the Pew poll asks about a wall along the entire length of the border rather than just the portions that actually might be built (Leaving aside the counter-assumption that people don't understand the distinction).

Gallup published their own poll results last June on immigration topics:


https://news.gallup.com/poll/235775/americans-oppose-border-walls-favor-dealing-daca.aspx

And Marist just released their own results focused on the wall as a blocker for the federal budget:

Quote
By a 21-point margin — 57 percent to 36 percent — Americans think the president should compromise on the wall to avoid a government shutdown, rather than stand firm. About two-thirds of Republicans say the opposite, and the president has been focused on maintaining his base.

https://www.npr.org/2018/12/11/675334306/poll-americans-want-trump-to-compromise-on-border-wall-amid-possible-shutdown
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: Shockingly, I agree with Alexandria Oscasio-Cortez on something...
« Reply #38 on: December 26, 2018, 03:03:07 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

  • In The Rafters
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 42178
  • Tommy Points: 2485
  • You ain't the boss of the freakin' bedclothes.
EDIT: Actually my original post was off-topic. It was about the way Americans feel about El Muro Fronterizo and the Shutdown but to the original point:

I think AOC gets a really unfair cliff-notes summary from many of her critics. She has big ideas. She doesn't have fleshed out big plans with comprehensive nuanced budget-neutral methods of how to pay for those big ideas.

But the House just passed a spending bill that pulled 5.4b out of thin air and they're facing zero criticism for it from so called budget hawks like I dunno...Paul Freakin Ryan!

The thing about AOC that I love is that she believes in what she's doing. I don't feel like she's become corrupted or jaded by politics yet. Contrast that against Mitch McConnell or Nancy Pelosi, whose hearts now have to obey Robert's Rules before beating, and I'll take AOC every time.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2018, 03:36:11 PM by indeedproceed »

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

 

Hello! Guest

Welcome to the CelticsStrong Forums.

Community

Signup to win FREE tickets

* indicates required