Author Topic: Kashoggi murder  (Read 2487 times)

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Kashoggi murder
« on: October 19, 2018, 12:05:07 PM »

Online nickagneta

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And while I find Trump and his supporters reveling in a physical attack against someone by a fellow Republican candidate disgusting, I think the bigger issue is how the administration is handling the Kashoggi murder. No blood trail yet but the amount of circumstantial evidence is huge.

They have the recording. They have the Crown Prince's fix it man flying to Istanbul and entering the Consulate hours before Kashoggi arrived and leaving the Consulate and country just hours later. They have a group of Saudi hitmen and a forensic scientist arriving by private jet before Kashoggi got to the Consulate and, like the Crown Prince's cleaner, leaving after. And they have the film of Kashoggi arriving but never leaving.

That's a bunch of evidence and yet Trump says he has to wait a few days for things to shake out before making a decision on what to do. CEO's from across the world have pulled out of a major tech conference in Saudi Arabia that would have attempted to make Saudi Arabia a tech hub for the entire Middle East.

The CEO's know when to pull the plug but President Trump doesn't? Is Trump going to stand by and support another world leader that is a murderer? Unreal!

Re: Kashoggi murder
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2018, 12:09:12 PM »

Offline angryguy77

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And while I find Trump and his supporters reveling in a physical attack against someone by a fellow Republican candidate disgusting, I think the bigger issue is how the administration is handling the Kashoggi murder. No blood trail yet but the amount of circumstantial evidence is huge.

They have the recording. They have the Crown Prince's fix it man flying to Istanbul and entering the Consulate hours before Kashoggi arrived and leaving the Consulate and country just hours later. They have a group of Saudi hitmen and a forensic scientist arriving by private jet before Kashoggi got to the Consulate and, like the Crown Prince's cleaner, leaving after. And they have the film of Kashoggi arriving but never leaving.

That's a bunch of evidence and yet Trump says he has to wait a few days for things to shake out before making a decision on what to do. CEO's from across the world have pulled out of a major tech conference in Saudi Arabia that would have attempted to make Saudi Arabia a tech hub for the entire Middle East.

The CEO's know when to pull the plug but President Trump doesn't? Is Trump going to stand by and support another world leader that is a murderer? Unreal!

At this point, what difference does it make?

Re: Kashoggi murder
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2018, 12:40:24 PM »

Online Roy H.

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I actually think the administration slow-playing this is a good idea. Trump is usually way too impulsive. Situations like this require actual diplomacy.

That doesn’t mean it should be ignored. It also doesn’t mean it should be addressed quickly and publicly.

As for what we should do, I have no idea. We’ve had normalized relations with many countries that execute dissidents, starting with Russia and China. 


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Re: Kashoggi murder
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2018, 01:20:32 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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And while I find Trump and his supporters reveling in a physical attack against someone by a fellow Republican candidate disgusting, I think the bigger issue is how the administration is handling the Kashoggi murder. No blood trail yet but the amount of circumstantial evidence is huge.

It's a bigger international issue for sure, but what narrows the gap for me is that both perpetrator and victim were Americans, the perpetrator is an American elected official, and the President is openly praising the violence as a positive thing. That changes the calculus quite a bit. But the juxtaposition was definitely very striking.


Quote
Is Trump going to stand by and support another world leader that is a murderer? Unreal!

As other people are going to note we deal with murderers all the time. It's almost unavoidable in international politics. It's the context of this murder - a brazen, brutal and completely extrajudicial torture, murder and dismemberment of a journalist with American ties in a diplomatic facility, along with the President's seeming enthusiasm to find any excuse for it ("rogue killers" that somehow got into a heavily secured consulate) - that makes it so extraordinary.

This is a good time to point out that we know Trump and family have major business dealings with the Saudis, we know his campaign had a secret meeting with their representatives where they offered support for his election, but the American people do not know what entanglements and conflicts of interest he has with them, because he refuses to reveal it and the Republicans in Congress have fought tooth and nail to keep them secret. Any and all decisions he makes regarding Saudi Arabia are suspect until he comes clean or is compelled to.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2018, 01:26:36 PM by fairweatherfan »

Re: Kashoggi murder
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2018, 01:26:53 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Quote
This is a good time to point out that we know Trump and family have major business dealings with the Saudis, we know his campaign had a secret meeting with their representatives where they offered support for his election, but the American people do not know what entanglements and conflicts of interest he was with them, because he refuses to reveal it and the Republicans in Congress have fought tooth and nail to keep them secret. Any and all decisions he makes regarding Saudi Arabia are suspect until he comes clean or is compelled to.

Do you really think that's the motivation?

Various administrations, dating back decades, have had a "look the other way" relationship with Saudi Arabia.  I think that's got more to do with their oil and their position in the Middle East than it does with personal enrichment.


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Re: Kashoggi murder
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2018, 01:35:42 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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Quote
This is a good time to point out that we know Trump and family have major business dealings with the Saudis, we know his campaign had a secret meeting with their representatives where they offered support for his election, but the American people do not know what entanglements and conflicts of interest he was with them, because he refuses to reveal it and the Republicans in Congress have fought tooth and nail to keep them secret. Any and all decisions he makes regarding Saudi Arabia are suspect until he comes clean or is compelled to.

Do you really think that's the motivation?

Various administrations, dating back decades, have had a "look the other way" relationship with Saudi Arabia.  I think that's got more to do with their oil and their position in the Middle East than it does with personal enrichment.

I think I don't know if it's the motivation, because we don't have the information to say so, which is why having a President who's free of personal financial conflicts and can prove it is so important to believing their decisions, good or bad, are driven by a desire to serve national interests and not their own.

I definitely agree that Republicans and Democrats alike have been far, far too cozy with the Saudis, for a variety of reasons. The only national politician who seems willing to call out that relationship is Bernie Sanders. But I never worried that W or Obama were accommodating them because they personally had millions of dollars at stake. No one can say that about Trump.

Re: Kashoggi murder
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2018, 01:43:19 PM »

Offline Pucaccia

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And while I find Trump and his supporters reveling in a physical attack against someone by a fellow Republican candidate disgusting, I think the bigger issue is how the administration is handling the Kashoggi murder. No blood trail yet but the amount of circumstantial evidence is huge.

They have the recording. They have the Crown Prince's fix it man flying to Istanbul and entering the Consulate hours before Kashoggi arrived and leaving the Consulate and country just hours later. They have a group of Saudi hitmen and a forensic scientist arriving by private jet before Kashoggi got to the Consulate and, like the Crown Prince's cleaner, leaving after. And they have the film of Kashoggi arriving but never leaving.

That's a bunch of evidence and yet Trump says he has to wait a few days for things to shake out before making a decision on what to do. CEO's from across the world have pulled out of a major tech conference in Saudi Arabia that would have attempted to make Saudi Arabia a tech hub for the entire Middle East.

The CEO's know when to pull the plug but President Trump doesn't? Is Trump going to stand by and support another world leader that is a murderer? Unreal!

Wow I can feel your outrage!

I am glad Trumps not rushing to judgement. You need to be certain before you take action. Plus Trump has stated that he will have severe punishment if true.

I  am curious were you this Outraged when: Peter Hacking , Ellie Bryant, Grayson Hacking, Kate Steinle, Sarah Root, Grant Ronnebeck, Mollie Tibbets were killed. You probably don't know all their names do you?  They are just some of the Americans who were killed by illegal aliens.


Re: Kashoggi murder
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2018, 02:35:30 PM »

Offline angryguy77

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Find it rather comical the left was telling us Trump was going to start WW3 and doesn't have the temperament to act with caution on the world stage.

He's taking a cautious approach to something that could get ugly if handled wrong and the left is criticizing him for that.



Re: Kashoggi murder
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2018, 02:38:46 PM »

Online slamtheking

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Quote
This is a good time to point out that we know Trump and family have major business dealings with the Saudis, we know his campaign had a secret meeting with their representatives where they offered support for his election, but the American people do not know what entanglements and conflicts of interest he was with them, because he refuses to reveal it and the Republicans in Congress have fought tooth and nail to keep them secret. Any and all decisions he makes regarding Saudi Arabia are suspect until he comes clean or is compelled to.

Do you really think that's the motivation?

Various administrations, dating back decades, have had a "look the other way" relationship with Saudi Arabia.  I think that's got more to do with their oil and their position in the Middle East than it does with personal enrichment.
for prior administrations, that would hold as a viable situation.  Trump has basically cozied up to countries directly opposed to the US and has been alienating traditional allies.  Using prior administrations as a reasoning for what Trump does regarding foreign affairs is a huge stretch to put it mildly.

considering his family is still running his business' affairs and the fact his family has significant financial involvement in Saudi Arabia, I don't find it unreasonable to think his primary motivation in this situation to be his personal financial well-being.

Re: Kashoggi murder
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2018, 02:39:27 PM »

Offline kraidstar

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Quote
This is a good time to point out that we know Trump and family have major business dealings with the Saudis, we know his campaign had a secret meeting with their representatives where they offered support for his election, but the American people do not know what entanglements and conflicts of interest he was with them, because he refuses to reveal it and the Republicans in Congress have fought tooth and nail to keep them secret. Any and all decisions he makes regarding Saudi Arabia are suspect until he comes clean or is compelled to.

Do you really think that's the motivation?

Various administrations, dating back decades, have had a "look the other way" relationship with Saudi Arabia.  I think that's got more to do with their oil and their position in the Middle East than it does with personal enrichment.

I think I don't know if it's the motivation, because we don't have the information to say so, which is why having a President who's free of personal financial conflicts and can prove it is so important to believing their decisions, good or bad, are driven by a desire to serve national interests and not their own.

I definitely agree that Republicans and Democrats alike have been far, far too cozy with the Saudis, for a variety of reasons. The only national politician who seems willing to call out that relationship is Bernie Sanders. But I never worried that W or Obama were accommodating them because they personally had millions of dollars at stake. No one can say that about Trump.

It's the language Trump uses as well that is alarming. "They denied it very, very strongly," etc. Just like the Putin election interference denials.

He is blatantly shilling for them. For such a good negotiator, he isn't even smart enough to put a little public pressure on these tyrants to advance American interests. Instead he desperately throws out bones to literally anybody he thinks will help him keep power.

Re: Kashoggi murder
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2018, 02:43:01 PM »

Online slamtheking

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Find it rather comical the left was telling us Trump was going to start WW3 and doesn't have the temperament to act with caution on the world stage.

He's taking a cautious approach to something that could get ugly if handled wrong and the left is criticizing him for that.
That was back in the day when people thought Trump would actual consider Putin an adversary, not his man-crush.  Same for Kim.

caution is great, if it's because he wants to handle the situation in the best way possible.  However, considering his consistency in jumping to conclusions and running off at the mouth, it's far more likely he's moving slowly on this to see how he can play this to his best personal benefit or cost him the least personally.

Re: Kashoggi murder
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2018, 02:56:19 PM »

Online nickagneta

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And while I find Trump and his supporters reveling in a physical attack against someone by a fellow Republican candidate disgusting, I think the bigger issue is how the administration is handling the Kashoggi murder. No blood trail yet but the amount of circumstantial evidence is huge.

They have the recording. They have the Crown Prince's fix it man flying to Istanbul and entering the Consulate hours before Kashoggi arrived and leaving the Consulate and country just hours later. They have a group of Saudi hitmen and a forensic scientist arriving by private jet before Kashoggi got to the Consulate and, like the Crown Prince's cleaner, leaving after. And they have the film of Kashoggi arriving but never leaving.

That's a bunch of evidence and yet Trump says he has to wait a few days for things to shake out before making a decision on what to do. CEO's from across the world have pulled out of a major tech conference in Saudi Arabia that would have attempted to make Saudi Arabia a tech hub for the entire Middle East.

The CEO's know when to pull the plug but President Trump doesn't? Is Trump going to stand by and support another world leader that is a murderer? Unreal!

Wow I can feel your outrage!

I am glad Trumps not rushing to judgement. You need to be certain before you take action. Plus Trump has stated that he will have severe punishment if true.

I  am curious were you this Outraged when: Peter Hacking , Ellie Bryant, Grayson Hacking, Kate Steinle, Sarah Root, Grant Ronnebeck, Mollie Tibbets were killed. You probably don't know all their names do you?  They are just some of the Americans who were killed by illegal aliens.
I just don't like the way that Trump seems to cozy up to or deflect blame for tyrants and murders who run other countries but does his best to anger long time trusted allies.

Regarding your second question, that's obviously an immigration issue question. If you want to talk about that, start another thread and you can have your answer.

This thread is about the handling of an international incident, not on the domestic policy on immigration.

Re: Kashoggi murder
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2018, 03:41:36 PM »

Offline Pucaccia

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And while I find Trump and his supporters reveling in a physical attack against someone by a fellow Republican candidate disgusting, I think the bigger issue is how the administration is handling the Kashoggi murder. No blood trail yet but the amount of circumstantial evidence is huge.

They have the recording. They have the Crown Prince's fix it man flying to Istanbul and entering the Consulate hours before Kashoggi arrived and leaving the Consulate and country just hours later. They have a group of Saudi hitmen and a forensic scientist arriving by private jet before Kashoggi got to the Consulate and, like the Crown Prince's cleaner, leaving after. And they have the film of Kashoggi arriving but never leaving.

That's a bunch of evidence and yet Trump says he has to wait a few days for things to shake out before making a decision on what to do. CEO's from across the world have pulled out of a major tech conference in Saudi Arabia that would have attempted to make Saudi Arabia a tech hub for the entire Middle East.

The CEO's know when to pull the plug but President Trump doesn't? Is Trump going to stand by and support another world leader that is a murderer? Unreal!

Wow I can feel your outrage!

I am glad Trumps not rushing to judgement. You need to be certain before you take action. Plus Trump has stated that he will have severe punishment if true.

I  am curious were you this Outraged when: Peter Hacking , Ellie Bryant, Grayson Hacking, Kate Steinle, Sarah Root, Grant Ronnebeck, Mollie Tibbets were killed. You probably don't know all their names do you?  They are just some of the Americans who were killed by illegal aliens.
I just don't like the way that Trump seems to cozy up to or deflect blame for tyrants and murders who run other countries but does his best to anger long time trusted allies.

Regarding your second question, that's obviously an immigration issue question. If you want to talk about that, start another thread and you can have your answer.

This thread is about the handling of an international incident, not on the domestic policy on immigration.

I am just pointing out that because of your hatred for Trump and people who like him, you might just have selective anger toward who dies in the world. Jamal Khashoggi is a Saudi. The others are Americans. Trump had nothing to do with Jamal Khashoggi and your trying to tie his gruesome killing to Trump. It seems a stretch.

So I can better understand you, could you be more specific on the tyrants and Murders that Trump deflects blame for and the trusted allies that Trump angers?
« Last Edit: October 19, 2018, 03:48:17 PM by Pucaccia »

Re: Kashoggi murder
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2018, 03:50:33 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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Find it rather comical the left was telling us Trump was going to start WW3 and doesn't have the temperament to act with caution on the world stage.

He's taking a cautious approach to something that could get ugly if handled wrong and the left is criticizing him for that.
That was back in the day when people thought Trump would actual consider Putin an adversary, not his man-crush.  Same for Kim.

caution is great, if it's because he wants to handle the situation in the best way possible.  However, considering his consistency in jumping to conclusions and running off at the mouth, it's far more likely he's moving slowly on this to see how he can play this to his best personal benefit or cost him the least personally.

Yeah and he hasn't been the least bit cautious about tossing around possibilities that absolve MBS from responsibility. Right now our position seems to be that we're going to let them investigate themselves, which is absurd. And we seem more than willing to accept any explanation that protects their leaders. It looks less like caution than a search for plausible deniability.

Sending Pompeo there to grin and gladhand and then say "I don’t want to talk about any of the facts" on what's supposed to be a fact-finding trip about a brutal murder makes us look weak and complicit as well.

The underrated party here is the Turks, who seem to be trying to drive a wedge between the US and KSA for their own benefit, and wound up with a golden ticket in whatever info they got from their secret surveillance of the consulate. They've got their own interests to promote as well.

Re: Kashoggi murder
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2018, 08:30:39 PM »

Online nickagneta

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https://www-m.cnn.com/2018/11/20/politics/trump-saudi-arabia/index.html?r=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F

So CIA says the Crown Prince ordered the murders and there is proof but Trump is too scared to listen to the tapes and says he doesn't want to destroy the American economy by doing something to Saudi Arabia. Even though there is proof the Saudi Crown Prince ordered the death and dismemberment of an American citizen.

 

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