Author Topic: Is Elizabeth Warren an American Indian?  (Read 5200 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Is Elizabeth Warren an American Indian?
« Reply #60 on: October 16, 2018, 08:01:48 PM »

Online KGs Knee

  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11005
  • Tommy Points: 1302
This short op-ed is probably the most succinct article I've read about this whole ordeal, and very astutely explains why Warren, even if ever so slightly right about her supposed ancestry, was overwhelmingly in the wrong here.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/glanton/ct-met-dahleen-glanton-warren-trump-20181015-story.html

Quote
But more than that, this senseless feud between Warren and Trump trivializes the struggle Native Americans face in a country that has taken away everything that once belonged to them.

It is another slap in the face from a government that established itself as the trustee of American Indian land and then mismanaged it to the point that Native American reservations are among the poorest communities in the country.

It is an argument that, in the end, can only benefit Trump or Warren. And once again, it strips away another layer of dignity from our nation’s indigenous people.

Re: Is Elizabeth Warren an American Indian?
« Reply #61 on: October 16, 2018, 08:11:48 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

  • JoJo White
  • ****************
  • Posts: 16816
  • Tommy Points: 1108
Quote
What are you talking about?  Please explain.  References please?

Here you go, I would not you to have to take time to google something.

Quote
Elizabeth Warren’s newly released DNA results show that the Democrat’s Native American ancestry is roughly the same as that of the average white American, and may be less.

A 2014 study by Harvard University and 23andMe found that European Americans tested overall for 0.18 percent Native American ancestry, while Ms. Warren’s results show she has anywhere from 0.09 percent to 1.5 percent.

Much less American Indian DNA  than the average European.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/oct/15/warren-may-be-less-native-american-average/

Quote
This statement is also just odd beyond odd.  The analysis was to determine what portion of her DNA came from the Native American gene pool.  This does not distinguish between North and South American peoples.  Because they all came from the same original eastern Asian group that migrated first to North America (by way of Alaska) and then on to South America, in three great migrations.

Do people really stop and think about these sorts of statements?   Yours would suggest, what?  That she had some ancestor a 150 years or so ago, that migrated all the way up from South America to the Oklahoma Territories?  Are you somehow finding that _more_ likely than that she simply had some great-great-grandparent who was significantly of more local indigenous background?

And she never, ever claimed any tribal affiliation.   Why are you even bringing that up?

It is only odd because you don't know the following.

Quote
Warren's DNA was reviewed at her request by Carlos Bustamante, a Stanford University genetics researcher, who compared it to reference samples and reported that he had found a Native American ancestor "approximately 8 generations" ago.

Bustamante, however, didn't compare Warren's DNA against Native Americans who live in the continental U.S., citing cultural reluctance to submit to DNA tests. Instead, he used recent samples from other countries whose populations presumably share a lineage during human settlement of the Americas about 15,000-25,000 years ago.


https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/dec/01/facts-behind-elizabeth-warren-and-her-native-ameri/

Also, your very misinformed because she has claimed she is Cherokee multiple times.

Quote
Warren’s central offense dates back to the mid 1980s, when she first formally notified law school administrators that her family tree includes Native Americans. Warren said she grew up with family stories about both grandparents on her mother’s side having some Cherokee or Delaware blood.

That genealogical claim has zero documentary evidence to back it up, according to a PolitiFact review of news and newsletter databases back to 1986.

Before this controversy arose in 2012, there is no account that Warren spoke publicly of having Native American roots, although she called herself Cherokee in a local Oklahoma cookbook in 1984.

"Elizabeth Warren’s avowed Native American heritage — which the candidate rarely if ever discusses on the campaign trail — was once touted by embattled Harvard Law School officials who cited her claim as proof of their faculty’s diversity," the article began. What the article revealed dated back more than a decade to diversity records kept by Harvard.

At a time when law schools faced public pressure to show greater ethnic diversity within their faculty, the university’s Crimson newspaper quoted a law school spokesman in 1996 saying Warren was Native American.

The Boston Globe followed the Herald with a report that the Association of American Law Schools listed Warren as a minority law teacher each year from 1986 to 1994. In that time, Warren went from being a law professor at the University of Texas, to the University of Pennsylvania, and finally in 1995 to Harvard University.

That association received faculty lists from law schools and sent personal profile forms to new faculty members. The group first asked about minority status in 1986.

"As a kid, I never asked my mom about documentation when she talked about our Native American heritage," Warren said in a 2012 campaign ad. "What kid would? But I knew my father’s family didn’t like that she was part Cherokee and part Delaware. So my parents had to elope."

Warren’s extended family offered a mixed take on those stories to Boston Globe reporters. 

Gloria Wysong, a cousin, said that her mother told her that the family's heritage "was Delaware, but the Delaware and Cherokee merged together."

And David Herring, Warren’s brother, said he grew up hearing, "Your grandfather is part Delaware, a little bitty bit, way back, and your grandmother is part Cherokee." 

But other cousins had no such memories.

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/dec/01/facts-behind-elizabeth-warren-and-her-native-ameri/

She is clearly qualified enough to get the jobs without the embellishment of her heritage.  Even her own family does not agree with her take.

Funny Tidbit

Quote
In 1984, a cousin in Oklahoma asked her to contribute recipes for a cookbook billed as "recipes passed down through the Five Tribes families." The book was entitled Pow Wow Chow.

Warren sent five, and under each one, listed herself as Elizabeth Warren, Cherokee.

Given that a cousin asked her to participate, this might lend credence to the notion that at least among her family, a tribal connection was taken for granted.

But it didn’t help that her recipes included one for crab with mayonnaise and another for herbed tomatoes — hardly traditional fare.

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/dec/01/facts-behind-elizabeth-warren-and-her-native-ameri/

How fake is that?

How are these for facts and links, but I then I usually have them.   Do you live in a cave, because I thought the Cherokee thing was common knowledge.  Maybe brush up on the facts first.

Quote
The Cherokee Nation on Monday afternoon called out Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.) for attempting to claim Native American heritage by releasing the results of a DNA test.

The test, conducted by a Stanford University professor Carlos Bustamante, showed that Warren has a Native American ancestor going back six to 10 generations ago, making her somewhere between 1/32nd and 1/1,024th American Indian.

The Cherokee Nation in a statement said using a DNA test to claim connection with a tribal nation is “inappropriate” and “wrong.”

“Using a DNA test to lay claim to any connection to the Cherokee Nation or any tribal nation, even vaguely, is inappropriate and wrong,” said Cherokee Nation Secretary of State Chuck Hoskin Jr. “It makes a mockery out of DNA tests and its legitimate uses while also dishonoring legitimate tribal governments and their citizens, whose ancestors are well documented and whose heritage is proven.”

https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/411521-cherokee-nation-warrens-use-of-dna-test-inappropriate-wrong

I fully expect a certain mod, to call me snippy or attacking you.   I hope you don't see it that way.   I await your links and facts to refute this stuff, of course.

Re: Is Elizabeth Warren an American Indian?
« Reply #62 on: October 16, 2018, 09:08:11 PM »

Offline slamtheking

  • Bill Sharman
  • *******************
  • Posts: 19717
  • Tommy Points: 9021
Bottom line for me is that if Warren's latest "revelation" reduces her chances to garner the Dem nomination in 2020, all the better.  I'd like the D nominee to have a chance to beat Trump in 2020.   Warren, Native American or not, has no chance to beat Trump. 

so, here's where I go back to my question on the first page --> why? 

As mentioned earlier, if this is the biggest knock on her, she's far less of a scumbag than Trump.  not even close.  what about her would turn off voters other than she's a Democrat (which hard core Republican partisans who are firmly party over country -- you know who you are here without me name dropping -- would never vote for)?   

to the best of my knowledge, her positions are the standard Dem positions -- nothing radical.  she's been clearly on the butts of the financial sector for causing the economic meltdown at the end of the Bush era which is a major selling point for me personally.  What is it I'm missing?

Re: Is Elizabeth Warren an American Indian?
« Reply #63 on: October 16, 2018, 09:18:18 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

  • JoJo White
  • ****************
  • Posts: 16816
  • Tommy Points: 1108
Quote
why? 

As mentioned earlier, if this is the biggest knock on her, she's far less of a scumbag than Trump.  not even close.  what about her would turn off voters other than she's a Democrat (which hard core Republican partisans who are firmly party over country -- you know who you are here without me name dropping -- would never vote for)?   

to the best of my knowledge, her positions are the standard Dem positions -- nothing radical.  she's been clearly on the butts of the financial sector for causing the economic meltdown at the end of the Bush era which is a major selling point for me personally.  What is it I'm missing?

She will be easy to define, and this definition defined once done will be hard to refute.  Also, she is middle aged and white, something that is to be demonized by some on the left.   I doubt, given the current climate that would get the nomination.  Perhaps the party has passed her as it did the Bush dynasty and she is not radical enough.  Does she want socialized medicine?   Will she commit to abolishing Ice?

Also, Politically is she enough of a fighter?   I am not so sure.  I think too, this will come back to haunt her in some way.   If the GOP does better than the primaries will people blame her somewhat for the timing of her DNA disclosure?   Who knows.

Quote
Several Democrats expressed frustration that Warren (D-Mass.) would choose to create a media sideshow so close to the important 2018 midterms. And some progressives and Native Americans fumed that Warren appeared to be appropriating tribal identity to settle a political controversy.

Some Democrats were surprised that Warren wasn't able to blunt the Cherokee Nation's response, especially after recently hiring the Democratic National Committee‘s director of Native American and Rural Engagement, PaaWee Rivera.

The controversy prompted some Democrats to debate whether Warren had made a strategic mistake in trying to squelch the controversy at this moment and in this way.

Yet other Democrats said Warren’s video on Monday reminded them of Clinton in another way: a 60-something white woman who conveyed past struggles that didn’t connect with today’s progressive arm of the party.

“This whole week from Elizabeth Warren has seemed heavy-handed and a little out of touch,” said a national Democratic strategist who’s not aligned with any presidential campaign

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/10/16/warren-dna-native-american-905705

The rest of the country is not Massachusetts and this may not play as well as it does in your home. The liberal coasts were shocked when Pres. Trump won.   I was not because I live in a Bell Weather state in the midwest. Of course, Americans are good at forgetting, give it a few years, but I have a feeling in this day and age of sound bites and media this could end up in a campaign ad.

Re: Is Elizabeth Warren an American Indian?
« Reply #64 on: October 16, 2018, 09:23:59 PM »

Offline nickagneta

  • Global Moderator
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 34891
  • Tommy Points: 5809
I have to say, if Warren is wrong about claiming Native American heritage and Native American leaders have come out against it, how do those same leaders feel about Trump's trivializing, stigmatizing and stereotyping nickname of Pocohontas that he uses to describe Warren?

I guess I can almost give a pass to Warren since she was probably told since she was a child that she had Native American heritage. It's probably engrained in her view of herself. It's something she is probably very proud of. But I can't give Trump a pass for the insulting way he describes her and basically insults all Native Americans.

Maybe this is just my absolute hatred of Trump coming through because I find him a despicable human and not fit to represent or lead this country, but I think it still needs to be mentioned
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 11:02:36 PM by nickagneta »

Re: Is Elizabeth Warren an American Indian?
« Reply #65 on: October 16, 2018, 09:31:59 PM »

Offline slamtheking

  • Bill Sharman
  • *******************
  • Posts: 19717
  • Tommy Points: 9021
I have to say, if Warren is wrong about claiming Native American and heritage and Native American leaders have come out against it, how do those same leaders feel about Trump's trivializing, stigmatizing and stereotyping nickname of Pocohontas that he uses to describe Warren?

I guess I can almost give a pass to Warren since she was probably told since she was a child that she had Native American heritage. It's probably engrained in her view of herself. It's something she is probably very proud of. But I can't give Trump a pass for the insulting way he describes her and basically insults all Native Americans.

Maybe this is just my absolute hatred of Trump coming through because I find him a despicable human and not fit to represent or lead this country, but I think it still needs to be mentioned
this is where I'm at in terms of this issue and Trump himself. 

as a kid I was also told I was part Native American.  The difference for me is that I knew which relative it was and this info came from my aunt who was more or less the family historian who knew that relative well when growing up (her maternal grandmother - my great grandmother).

derailing a bit here but I really wish that this election got back to a focus on issues.  period.  this is a typical Trump/Republican distraction. 

Re: Is Elizabeth Warren an American Indian?
« Reply #66 on: October 16, 2018, 09:35:09 PM »

Offline slamtheking

  • Bill Sharman
  • *******************
  • Posts: 19717
  • Tommy Points: 9021
Quote
why? 

As mentioned earlier, if this is the biggest knock on her, she's far less of a scumbag than Trump.  not even close.  what about her would turn off voters other than she's a Democrat (which hard core Republican partisans who are firmly party over country -- you know who you are here without me name dropping -- would never vote for)?   

to the best of my knowledge, her positions are the standard Dem positions -- nothing radical.  she's been clearly on the butts of the financial sector for causing the economic meltdown at the end of the Bush era which is a major selling point for me personally.  What is it I'm missing?

She will be easy to define, and this definition defined once done will be hard to refute.  Also, she is middle aged and white, something that is to be demonized by some on the left.   I doubt, given the current climate that would get the nomination.  Perhaps the party has passed her as it did the Bush dynasty and she is not radical enough.  Does she want socialized medicine?   Will she commit to abolishing Ice?

Also, Politically is she enough of a fighter?   I am not so sure.  I think too, this will come back to haunt her in some way.   If the GOP does better than the primaries will people blame her somewhat for the timing of her DNA disclosure?   Who knows.

Quote
Several Democrats expressed frustration that Warren (D-Mass.) would choose to create a media sideshow so close to the important 2018 midterms. And some progressives and Native Americans fumed that Warren appeared to be appropriating tribal identity to settle a political controversy.

Some Democrats were surprised that Warren wasn't able to blunt the Cherokee Nation's response, especially after recently hiring the Democratic National Committee‘s director of Native American and Rural Engagement, PaaWee Rivera.

The controversy prompted some Democrats to debate whether Warren had made a strategic mistake in trying to squelch the controversy at this moment and in this way.

Yet other Democrats said Warren’s video on Monday reminded them of Clinton in another way: a 60-something white woman who conveyed past struggles that didn’t connect with today’s progressive arm of the party.

“This whole week from Elizabeth Warren has seemed heavy-handed and a little out of touch,” said a national Democratic strategist who’s not aligned with any presidential campaign

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/10/16/warren-dna-native-american-905705

The rest of the country is not Massachusetts and this may not play as well as it does in your home. The liberal coasts were shocked when Pres. Trump won.   I was not because I live in a Bell Weather state in the midwest. Of course, Americans are good at forgetting, give it a few years, but I have a feeling in this day and age of sound bites and media this could end up in a campaign ad.
TP for the civil response -- much appreciated.

I have to say that if this is what's going against Warren, I have to shake my head at how lightweight this is especially in comparison with who's running the country right now. 

no matter who gets the Dam nomination in 2020, they better be a topnotch debater that can think fast on their feet to hit Trump hard on issues and hit him harder when he tries to pivot to his usual BS tactics and lies.

Re: Is Elizabeth Warren an American Indian?
« Reply #67 on: October 17, 2018, 07:27:04 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

  • JoJo White
  • ****************
  • Posts: 16816
  • Tommy Points: 1108
Quote
Quote
I have to say, if Warren is wrong about claiming Native American heritage and Native American leaders have come out against it, how do those same leaders feel about Trump's trivializing, stigmatizing and stereotyping nickname of Pocohontas that he uses to describe Warren?

Both are wrong in my eyes, Pres. Trump and Warren.

Quote
I guess I can almost give a pass to Warren since she was probably told since she was a child that she had Native American heritage. It's probably engrained in her view of herself. It's something she is probably very proud of. But I can't give Trump a pass for the insulting way he describes her and basically insults all Native Americans.

Nope, it is wrong of him.   But I also think that Warren is disingenuous at best and a liar at the worse.   We will never know, because she won't come out and tell the truth because she wants to maintain political viability.   Some of her relatives as I note above, claim they have never heard their family claim this to be the case.

Also, Native American DNA is hard to come by in these samples because Native Americans to a large degree to not take these DNA tests.   Hence, the tester using South American DNA.   Both are probable for someone living in Oklahoma, as it is close to Mexico and was homeland of many tribes including Cherokee after the trail of tears.

Quote
Maybe this is just my absolute hatred of Trump coming through because I find him a despicable human and not fit to represent or lead this country, but I think it still needs to be mentioned

He is very polarizing, I don't no one previous has filled so many people with angst and anger.   I  just hope it does not become par for the course.   I get people have hated Pres. Obama, Pres. Bush and Pres. Clinton, too.   As long as you are aware of it, I don't think your hate is irrational.

Re: Is Elizabeth Warren an American Indian?
« Reply #68 on: October 17, 2018, 12:24:09 PM »

Offline mmmmm

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3676
  • Tommy Points: 615
I'm not sure what Warren thought she stood to gain here, but it seems all she has done is further anger Native Americans, and probably killed what little chance she had of making a serious run for President in 2020.  Warren truly is out of touch and living a bubble of delusion.

Quote
“It makes a mockery out of DNA tests and its legitimate uses while also dishonoring legitimate tribal governments and their citizens, whose ancestors are well documented and whose heritage is proven,” Cherokee Nation Secretary of State Chuck Hoskin Jr. said in a statement. “Senator Warren is undermining tribal interests with her continued claims of tribal heritage.”

Quote
Kim TallBear, a researcher at the University of Alberta, called Warren’s claims “yet another strike” against “tribal sovereignty.”

That erosion, TallBear said Monday on Twitter, has been long-standing.

“Non-Indigenous Americans will never stop making claims to all things indigenous: bones, blood, land, waters, and identities. The U.S. continues to appropriate every last thing.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/10/16/elizabeth-warren-angers-prominent-native-americans-with-politically-fraught-dna-test/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.c4edea7152f7

Quote
"It adds fuel to that misconception that I can go out, get a DNA test and then, boom, that's all I really need," said Brandon Scott, a Cherokee Nation citizen and the executive editor of tribe's newspaper, the Cherokee Phoenix. "But the facts of the matter are you need a lot more than that."

Quote
"Cultural appropriation is the dumbest thing that anybody can do, but especially a Democrat."

Said Branham: "It's not a costume. You can't put on and take off being native whenever you feel like it or whenever it benefits you. It's really actively being a part of that culture."

https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2018/10/16/us/ap-us-elizabeth-warren-heritage-oklahoma-tribes.html

I find the logic used by several in this to be pretty weak.

Tribes own right of affiliation.  But they don't own your genetics.   They are two very separate things.  And just because someone claims that their genetic ancestry includes Native American DNA doesn't mean they are committing cultural approbation. 

Tribal-disenrollment is actually a very complex and controversial issue going on right now in some NA communities.   People who have been born and raised in some tribes, even 'on the rez', have been actually kicked out because they weren't "red enough".  That's because of anglo blood being mixed in over generations.  Or others because they don't live in the communities, despite being genetically still close.  Many disenrollment cases actually end up having nothing to do with either by stem from other factional issues.  Some of these cases are literally driven by greed and pettiness.  And some are legitimate.

These issues are difficult and nuanced and 'hot takes' and over-simplifications don't help anything except get people riled up for no reason.

And it's especially sickening to see people who aren't even part of either side of that step in for their own self-serving partisan reasons to pretend they are shielding the poor Native Americans from cultural approbation.

Let's be clear:   The damage the Trump administration and the GOP has done to Native Americans with various decisions such as the Bears Ear National Monument land-grab and the Dakota Access Pipeline and the disenfranchisement caused by N. Dakota's voter ID laws massively dwarfs any possible insult to 'cultural pride' that Warren could have done here, even if she had claimed to be a tribal member and dressed up in ritual apparel.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: Is Elizabeth Warren an American Indian?
« Reply #69 on: October 17, 2018, 12:48:49 PM »

Offline mmmmm

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3676
  • Tommy Points: 615
Quote
And she never, ever claimed any tribal affiliation.

Except labeling herself Cherokee.

(bunch a stuff deleted for brevity)

None of that is the same as claiming tribal affiliation.

Being a member of a tribe is a very specific distinction (with different requirements in different tribes, according to their laws).

But if someone is raised to believe they were descended from someone who was a member of a tribe, it is not "lying" to include that as part of their heritage.  You claim you identify as Irish based on that being a part of your ancestry.  Are you an Irish citizen?

And in fact, there is no actual evidence that Warren was told wrong about her ancestry.   The DNA analysis, if anything, confirms that she does have some NA ancestry and that it was likely introduced by one pure blood NA between 6 and 10 generations ago.  It doesn't confirm which tribe.  All she would have to go on with regard to the tribe is the stories within her family and simply geographic reality.  It had to have been from a tribe within some reasonable geographic proximity to the places her family came from.   So no, she's not part indigenous Peruvian.

Regarding the 'plagiarized recipe':   Recipes are notorious for having redundant points of 'origin'.   But if the worse "lie" that Warren is confirmed to have committed is to copy a cooking recipe, then that would make her a saint among senators.


NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: Is Elizabeth Warren an American Indian?
« Reply #70 on: October 17, 2018, 01:56:46 PM »

Offline mmmmm

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3676
  • Tommy Points: 615
Quote
What are you talking about?  Please explain.  References please?

Here you go, I would not you to have to take time to google something.

Quote
Elizabeth Warren’s newly released DNA results show that the Democrat’s Native American ancestry is roughly the same as that of the average white American, and may be less.

A 2014 study by Harvard University and 23andMe found that European Americans tested overall for 0.18 percent Native American ancestry, while Ms. Warren’s results show she has anywhere from 0.09 percent to 1.5 percent.

Much less American Indian DNA  than the average European.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/oct/15/warren-may-be-less-native-american-average/


First off, the reference is comparing against "European Americans".  Not "Europeans", which is what you stated.

Second of all, the only way she gets under that average for 'European Americans' of 0.18 percent is if her unadmixed ancestor came into the family 9 or 10 generations back.   That's the tail end of allowed range of 6-10 generations.   Possible?  Sure.  But it becomes far less likely.   Not sure when Warren's earliest Euro ancestor came to North America, but going 9 generations back puts you into the early 1600s or even possibly late 1500s.  For the mixing to occur 9 or 10 generations back, her Euro ancestor would have had to have been among the very earliest migrations and almost immediately or within a generation, joined with a native.  Given the shear volume of migrants who came well _after_ that, it is far more likely admixing occurred much later.

But this is the Washington Times, so I'm not surprised.   All they did was treat the range as a flat probability and note the overlap with the 'average' number, as if that was a meaningful analysis.

It isn't.


Quote
Quote
This statement is also just odd beyond odd.  The analysis was to determine what portion of her DNA came from the Native American gene pool.  This does not distinguish between North and South American peoples.  Because they all came from the same original eastern Asian group that migrated first to North America (by way of Alaska) and then on to South America, in three great migrations.

Do people really stop and think about these sorts of statements?   Yours would suggest, what?  That she had some ancestor a 150 years or so ago, that migrated all the way up from South America to the Oklahoma Territories?  Are you somehow finding that _more_ likely than that she simply had some great-great-grandparent who was significantly of more local indigenous background?

And she never, ever claimed any tribal affiliation.   Why are you even bringing that up?

It is only odd because you don't know the following.

Quote
Warren's DNA was reviewed at her request by Carlos Bustamante, a Stanford University genetics researcher, who compared it to reference samples and reported that he had found a Native American ancestor "approximately 8 generations" ago.

Bustamante, however, didn't compare Warren's DNA against Native Americans who live in the continental U.S., citing cultural reluctance to submit to DNA tests. Instead, he used recent samples from other countries whose populations presumably share a lineage during human settlement of the Americas about 15,000-25,000 years ago.


https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/dec/01/facts-behind-elizabeth-warren-and-her-native-ameri/


You are misinterpreting what that means.  The analyst used those southern populations because they are purer samples to look for a set of common non-Euro markers in.  But they are from the same original group source as north american natives came from.   People with native blood in North America will have some or all of the same markers.   That doesn't make them descended from people to the south.  It means they share ancestry with people from the south.   And the common ancestry are the people that migrated over from Asia through Alaska and then southward, in three major waves.

The test says nothing about whether her Native American blood came from a member of a North American tribe or a South American tribe.  But you then have to apply rational logic:   The unadmixed NA tribal member that joined into her family chain had to come from somewhere reasonably geographically close to her Euro ancestors.   And that would have been somewhere in the current United States.  So no, she is not descended from an indigenous Peruvian.

Quote

Also, your very misinformed because she has claimed she is Cherokee multiple times.


Nowhere has she claimed Tribal Affiliation in the Cherokee Tribe.  That is a distinctly different thing from claiming to have Cherokee or Delaware blood in her ancestry.

Tribal Affiliation is a distinct legal status and has varying requirements, depending on the tribe, beyond blood quota.

All she has done is no different than someone claiming to be part French, yet not being a French citizen.   Absent any DNA test, if your parents told you you were part French, then why would you have any reason to doubt that you were part French?

Trivia:  Donald Trumps' family was originally named Drumpf.  Not Trump.   And originally from Germany.   Not Sweden.  Back in the last century his father at one point started claiming they were Swedish instead purely so as to make him acceptable to do business with to Jewish community members.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: Is Elizabeth Warren an American Indian?
« Reply #71 on: October 17, 2018, 02:18:57 PM »

Offline angryguy77

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4367
  • Tommy Points: 373
I have to say, if Warren is wrong about claiming Native American heritage and Native American leaders have come out against it, how do those same leaders feel about Trump's trivializing, stigmatizing and stereotyping nickname of Pocohontas that he uses to describe Warren?

I guess I can almost give a pass to Warren since she was probably told since she was a child that she had Native American heritage. It's probably engrained in her view of herself. It's something she is probably very proud of. But I can't give Trump a pass for the insulting way he describes her and basically insults all Native Americans.

Maybe this is just my absolute hatred of Trump coming through because I find him a despicable human and not fit to represent or lead this country, but I think it still needs to be mentioned

My family believed for a time until we had testing done that we had Indian ancestry going back a few generations. Growing up I had my mom say she could see some characteristics in my dads face, much like Warren claimed with high cheek bones. The difference is......not a single one of us claimed to be Indian because.....we're white and had no proof of being Indian other than what was theroized.

There is no pass to be given on this. She used a minority status to gain employment and political advantages. She's been exposed and rightfully humiliated.

As for the Pocahontas thing, is that worse than when the dems constantly accuse the republicans of wanting kids to starve, the ice caps to melt, or showing paul ryan push a senior off a cliff? I find it hilarious seeing liberals whine about this mockery on Warren when it doesn't come close to anything conservatives get on a daily basis from the MSM and Hollywood.

BTW, calling her Pocahontas isn't making fun if Indians as much as it's making fun of her classlessness and dishonesty.

Re: Is Elizabeth Warren an American Indian?
« Reply #72 on: October 17, 2018, 02:26:14 PM »

Online KGs Knee

  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11005
  • Tommy Points: 1302
I'm not sure what Warren thought she stood to gain here, but it seems all she has done is further anger Native Americans, and probably killed what little chance she had of making a serious run for President in 2020.  Warren truly is out of touch and living a bubble of delusion.

Quote
“It makes a mockery out of DNA tests and its legitimate uses while also dishonoring legitimate tribal governments and their citizens, whose ancestors are well documented and whose heritage is proven,” Cherokee Nation Secretary of State Chuck Hoskin Jr. said in a statement. “Senator Warren is undermining tribal interests with her continued claims of tribal heritage.”

Quote
Kim TallBear, a researcher at the University of Alberta, called Warren’s claims “yet another strike” against “tribal sovereignty.”

That erosion, TallBear said Monday on Twitter, has been long-standing.

“Non-Indigenous Americans will never stop making claims to all things indigenous: bones, blood, land, waters, and identities. The U.S. continues to appropriate every last thing.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/10/16/elizabeth-warren-angers-prominent-native-americans-with-politically-fraught-dna-test/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.c4edea7152f7

Quote
"It adds fuel to that misconception that I can go out, get a DNA test and then, boom, that's all I really need," said Brandon Scott, a Cherokee Nation citizen and the executive editor of tribe's newspaper, the Cherokee Phoenix. "But the facts of the matter are you need a lot more than that."

Quote
"Cultural appropriation is the dumbest thing that anybody can do, but especially a Democrat."

Said Branham: "It's not a costume. You can't put on and take off being native whenever you feel like it or whenever it benefits you. It's really actively being a part of that culture."

https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2018/10/16/us/ap-us-elizabeth-warren-heritage-oklahoma-tribes.html

I find the logic used by several in this to be pretty weak.

Tribes own right of affiliation.  But they don't own your genetics.   They are two very separate things.  And just because someone claims that their genetic ancestry includes Native American DNA doesn't mean they are committing cultural approbation. 

Tribal-disenrollment is actually a very complex and controversial issue going on right now in some NA communities.   People who have been born and raised in some tribes, even 'on the rez', have been actually kicked out because they weren't "red enough".  That's because of anglo blood being mixed in over generations.  Or others because they don't live in the communities, despite being genetically still close.  Many disenrollment cases actually end up having nothing to do with either by stem from other factional issues.  Some of these cases are literally driven by greed and pettiness.  And some are legitimate.

These issues are difficult and nuanced and 'hot takes' and over-simplifications don't help anything except get people riled up for no reason.

And it's especially sickening to see people who aren't even part of either side of that step in for their own self-serving partisan reasons to pretend they are shielding the poor Native Americans from cultural approbation.

Let's be clear:   The damage the Trump administration and the GOP has done to Native Americans with various decisions such as the Bears Ear National Monument land-grab and the Dakota Access Pipeline and the disenfranchisement caused by N. Dakota's voter ID laws massively dwarfs any possible insult to 'cultural pride' that Warren could have done here, even if she had claimed to be a tribal member and dressed up in ritual apparel.


Sure, the things Trump has said and done to Native Americans is indisputably horrendous.   You won't get any argument out of me on that front.

As for the rest, I suggest you take that argument up with an actual Native American. I suspect they'd find your viewpoints offensive, but that's their fight to fight, not mine.

Re: Is Elizabeth Warren an American Indian?
« Reply #73 on: October 17, 2018, 02:28:33 PM »

Online Roy H.

  • Forums Manager
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 37037
  • Tommy Points: -27542
  • 33,333 posts and counting . . .
Quote
And she never, ever claimed any tribal affiliation.

Except labeling herself Cherokee.

(bunch a stuff deleted for brevity)

None of that is the same as claiming tribal affiliation.

Being a member of a tribe is a very specific distinction (with different requirements in different tribes, according to their laws).

But if someone is raised to believe they were descended from someone who was a member of a tribe, it is not "lying" to include that as part of their heritage.  You claim you identify as Irish based on that being a part of your ancestry.  Are you an Irish citizen?

And in fact, there is no actual evidence that Warren was told wrong about her ancestry.   The DNA analysis, if anything, confirms that she does have some NA ancestry and that it was likely introduced by one pure blood NA between 6 and 10 generations ago.  It doesn't confirm which tribe.  All she would have to go on with regard to the tribe is the stories within her family and simply geographic reality.  It had to have been from a tribe within some reasonable geographic proximity to the places her family came from.   So no, she's not part indigenous Peruvian.

Regarding the 'plagiarized recipe':   Recipes are notorious for having redundant points of 'origin'.   But if the worse "lie" that Warren is confirmed to have committed is to copy a cooking recipe, then that would make her a saint among senators.

Labeling yourself as “Cherokee” is claiming affiliation with the Cherokee tribe. She may not be asking for reservation rights / a share of per diem, but she’s appropriating their tribe. The Cherokee, in particular, have pretty stringent bloodline guidelines regarding who can claim membership.  1,024th indigenous blood isn’t going to cut it.

And for me, I can absolutely trace my Irish roots, thanks for asking. 


Once a CrotoNat, always a CrotoNat.  CelticsBlog Draft Champions, 2009 & 2012;
DKC Draft 2015 Champions and beyond...

Re: Is Elizabeth Warren an American Indian?
« Reply #74 on: October 17, 2018, 02:37:23 PM »

Offline mmmmm

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3676
  • Tommy Points: 615
I have to say, if Warren is wrong about claiming Native American heritage and Native American leaders have come out against it, how do those same leaders feel about Trump's trivializing, stigmatizing and stereotyping nickname of Pocohontas that he uses to describe Warren?

I guess I can almost give a pass to Warren since she was probably told since she was a child that she had Native American heritage. It's probably engrained in her view of herself. It's something she is probably very proud of. But I can't give Trump a pass for the insulting way he describes her and basically insults all Native Americans.

Maybe this is just my absolute hatred of Trump coming through because I find him a despicable human and not fit to represent or lead this country, but I think it still needs to be mentioned

My family believed for a time until we had testing done that we had Indian ancestry going back a few generations. Growing up I had my mom say she could see some characteristics in my dads face, much like Warren. The difference is......not a single one of us claimed to be Indian because.....we're white.

My son is 1/16th Native American (and yes, we have the proof of that) and yet is pale, pasty-white with blonde hair and blue eyes.  Cannot go in the sun without a ton of sunscreen on.

Your prejudgement of Warren's ancestry based on her appearance is just that:  prejudice.

Your family believed something until you had testing done.  I assume your language means the testing ruled that out.

Warren's family believed something and testing has been done that confirmed what they believed.   Pretty different story.

Quote

BTW, calling her Pocahontas isn't making fun if Indians as much as it's making fun of her classlessness and dishonesty.

No.   It is making fun and hideously disrespectful of Native Americans.   Especially coming from an administration and political party that has made a point of trodding on Native Americans.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

 

Hello! Guest

Welcome to the CelticsStrong Forums.

Community

Signup to win FREE tickets

* indicates required