Author Topic: Kanye West and the vile art of shouting down opponents  (Read 6128 times)

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Kanye West and the vile art of shouting down opponents
« on: October 12, 2018, 12:30:55 AM »

Online Roy H.

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Kanye West is obviously a divisive figure.  He's probably not the first guy I'd turn to for political opinions, but neither is Robert DeNiro or Taylor Swift or Jane Fonda.  To be charitable, the celebrities who speak loudest about political issues aren't always the best advocates for the positions they're advancing.

What I don't like is that nobody wants to debate Kanye on ideas, or even address the ideas that Kanye is espousing.  I mean, does he have a point about violence in Chicago?  Does he have a point about how things haven't gotten much better for the poorest of black Americans over the last several decades?  Has the near-total allegiance to the Democrat Party been helpful to African-Americans, or are they instead just used as a voting block?  Do identity politics spring from a genuine desire to help people in certain constituencies, or just to pay lip service to them in order to get elected?

There's lots to be debated there.  Instead, this is what we get from the media:

Quote from: Don Lemon
What I saw was a minstrel show today—him in front of all these white people, mostly white people embarrassing himself and embarrassing Americans but mostly African Americans

Quote from: CNN commentator Bakari Sellers
“Kanye West is what happens when Neg***s don’t read.”

Quote from: CNN commentator Tara Setmayer
"Black folks are about to trade Kanye West in the racial draft, OK .... He’s the token neg** of the Trump administration.”

Is this where we are in 2018?  The thing you attack about Kanye West is...  his race? 

Call the guy incoherent, call him misinformed.  Those may be legitimate points.  Debate him on the merits.  But come on, don't go for racial cheap shots.

For years, the left has been using the term "racist" as a sword against legitimate criticism.  Scarily, that seems to be morphing into an even more radicalized agenda, where one's race is used against him or her as an attack.  In Kanye's case, he's attacked because he's black (except using uglier language).  In Susan Collins' case, prominent leftists attacked her for being a "white woman".  (And let's not even get into all the leftist attacks on Lindsey Graham for allegedly being a closeted homosexual.)

The trend recently has been to "shout down" opposing speech, rather than addressing it thoughtfully.  By bringing race into it, that ramps that up even further.  How the hell is this okay? 


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Re: Kanye West and the vile art of shouting down opponents
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2018, 01:17:34 AM »

Online gouki88

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Vile is definitely the way to describe it. That so many are willing to describe Kanye as a 'race traitor' or something of the like for not adhering to the politics that these commentators have designated as suitable, so to speak, for African Americans is despicable.

He's not the kind of guy I myself would turn to for political insight, but that's something I'd say for the vast majority of entertainers and artists. However, that doesn't mean he at all deserves the pretty vitriolic hate he receives for expressing views most wouldn't expect from him.

Thankfully I don't think Kanye really cares, as long as his mental health issues aren't effecting him too powerfully. But it does serve to almost certainly make other people like him have second thoughts about expressing themselves, which is bad in itself

Re: Kanye West and the vile art of shouting down opponents
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2018, 01:54:29 AM »

Online liam

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I loved Kanyes 1st two albums. They are amazing but I think it's pretty crazy for a black man in America to call for the repeal of the 13th amendment is a lot crazy.

Re: Kanye West and the vile art of shouting down opponents
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2018, 06:18:34 AM »

Online Roy H.

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... I think it's pretty crazy for a black man in America to call for the repeal of the 13th amendment is a lot crazy.

I think he was trying to make an argument that passing the 13th Amendment was only an illusion, because blacks have remained enslaved 150+ years later. Literal chains have been replaced by metaphorical ones: poverty, crime, lack of mobility, a plantation relationship with one political party.  The 13th Amendment only provides cover to the virtual slave holders.

There’s thought behind at least some of his rants. Maybe they’re “crazy”. Maybe they’re Kyrie-esque “flat earth” level, where somebody is trying to express a deeper thought and he’s unable to articulate it.

But what he’s not is a [insert preferred racial slur of his critics].

« Last Edit: October 12, 2018, 02:09:10 PM by Roy H. »


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Re: Kanye West and the vile art of shouting down opponents
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2018, 06:29:00 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Double standard by the left clearly, doesn't fit the ideology,  so they are attacking him.   And this is clearly being taking advantage by the right with publicity.   If I were the Dems, I would be more worried about the low unemployment numbers as it might have more impact than anything else...

Amazing how if folks don't agree with them now, the left are labeling him as mentally ill and vile.  This is absurd and may backfire on them.  I don't listen to his music, but the man has a right to say what he wants to say without him being torn down just because it does not fit the narrative on one side.

Quote
In Kanye's case, he's attacked because he's black (except using uglier language).  In Susan Collins' case, prominent leftists attacked her for being a "white woman".  (And let's not even get into all the leftist attacks on Lindsey Graham for allegedly being a closeted homosexual.)

Terrible in both cases, but let us be honest there were litmus tests for years on the right as well.   If your against abortion, or you were gay, you were out.   Not quite the same thing but parties have always attacked people that don't follow the lock step.   It is almost as if he is being attacked because he is not being an Uncle Tom that trusts the Dems.  Just as Susan Collins was attacked for being a woman who may have put woman's reproductive rights to the wayside ( I think that is panic mongering in the worst form BTW but there are always folks that drink the Kool-aid)

This stuff is getting out of hand and that it will lead us down a bad path that will only lead to more sorrow.  People are not even called out for this behavior, in the past the networks would have fired people for that stuff.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2018, 06:36:29 AM by Celtics4ever »

Re: Kanye West and the vile art of shouting down opponents
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2018, 06:31:02 AM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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maybe he is just say n , I have the right to my own opinion and freedom to speak it , no matter how dumb it sounds or who doesn't like it .  He is using his rights , i don't have to conform,,  and maybe suggests in his own strange  way all black men should stop and think for themselves and not follow a certain political agenda .  i ll think as I please .

Re: Kanye West and the vile art of shouting down opponents
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2018, 06:38:21 AM »

Online Roy H.

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Quote
Amazing how if folks don't agree with them now, the left are labeling him as mentally ill and vile.  This is absurd and may backfire on them.  I don't listen to his music, but the man has a right to say what he wants to say without him being torn down just because it does not fit the narrative on one side.

This is true, of course. I expect that the media will amplify those they agree with (Taylor Swift) and tear down those with whom they don’t. But there are lines of decency that shouldn’t be crossed, even when reflexively shouting down opponents. Racial slurs should be that line.


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Re: Kanye West and the vile art of shouting down opponents
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2018, 06:57:13 AM »

Offline Surferdad

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Quote
Call the guy incoherent, call him misinformed.
Incoherent, misinformed.

I don't like Kanye and I get around that by paying no attention whatsoever to any news stories about him.  Try it, you'll like it!

Re: Kanye West and the vile art of shouting down opponents
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2018, 07:25:36 AM »

Online Roy H.

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Quote
Call the guy incoherent, call him misinformed.
Incoherent, misinformed.

I don't like Kanye and I get around that by paying no attention whatsoever to any news stories about him.  Try it, you'll like it!

Ha.  I generally do.  I like some of his music, but never really considered him an artistic "genius".  I detest his wife, and believe that she and her family are symbolic of a lot of the wrong in America.  And, I wouldn't invite Kanye to engage in the political process at the White House any more than I would Kyrie Irving or some random person from a Masters level philosophy class at a local university.   Kanye and other celebrities have largely earned their gigantic platforms to speak on things, but the government doesn't need to amplify them.

But, debate ideas, not race.  For instance, I think Alexandria Oscario-Cortez a talented but vapid politician who doesn't even have a cursory understanding of the ideas she's espousing.  Her entire campaign is empty promises based on "wokeness" and little else.  She seemingly doesn't understand even basic concepts like the unemployment rate, and she hasn't even offered a pretext for paying for her thinly-sketched proposals.

See?  It's entirely possible to criticize a person of color without insulting their race.  Or gender.  Or orientation.


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Re: Kanye West and the vile art of shouting down opponents
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2018, 07:36:19 AM »

Offline moiso

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Yes, you can criticize West for simply being an idiot.  But the main reason the media is making such a big deal of West meeting Trump is mainly because he’s black, right?  Nobody cares that Kid Rock was there.

Re: Kanye West and the vile art of shouting down opponents
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2018, 08:03:32 AM »

Offline JSD

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Kid Rock would be considered a few notches below Kanye West in terms of starpower. West, a brilliant artist who has revolutionized music production on multiple occasions, is going to demand a higher level of attention at the White House regardless of race. It’s a Mitch Richmond to LeBron James like comparison.

I listened closely to what West said at the White House. While most of his words were all over the place and difficult to decipher, I thought he made some interesting comments about the consequences of welfare within the black community, the Democratic Party and guns. West reading Chicago School Economists Friedman and Sowell seems to have reshaped his perspective.

Re: Kanye West and the vile art of shouting down opponents
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2018, 08:31:47 AM »

Offline chicagoceltic

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Yes, you can criticize West for simply being an idiot.  But the main reason the media is making such a big deal of West meeting Trump is mainly because he’s black, right?  Nobody cares that Kid Rock was there.
I do not think that this is accurate.  There was plenty of talk/attention about when Kid Rock and Ted Nugent visited the White House.  There was the issue with them (and Sarah Palin) taking mocking pictures in front of the Hillary Clinton portrait and even a lot of talk after that of him making a run for the Senate.  Nugent, Rock and West are all idiots and should be ignored.  As should the idiot celebs that the Dems like to trot out too.  Race should not be an issue though, of course.

Funny though that the people who tell LeBron to shut up and dribble, complain about Hollywood stars making political comments and call Kaepernick just a dumb jock have a different opinion about Kanye West.  For the record, the left and right are both hypocrites with stuff like this.
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Re: Kanye West and the vile art of shouting down opponents
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2018, 09:27:23 AM »

Offline heyvik

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Full disclosure: I watch MSNBC AND FOXNews. If you want to make an informed decision you HAVE TO watch left and right and determine what is actually meaningful news and what is fluff.

I watched the meeting at work and as someone who doesn't like music (really an oldies kinda guy) what I noticed was someone who was there to talk about himself.

I read the comments from the CNN commentators, and they were extreme. But delving into what Kanye actually said was this - "I have an idea about a plane....." "Our president needs to have the best...." "I could have lost 200 million...but I invested in(whatever company)." "I was diagnosed as bi-polar, now I have sleep deprivation..." Kanye was there to talk about himself.

What really made me aghast was when Kanye said he puts on a hat and it give him superpowers? really....that's some kind of wierd stuff if a hat does that to you. If he's saying that by wearing that MAGA hat he feels hatred  and he feeds off of that, why does he even need to wear the hat. I'm sure there's PLENTY of hatred against him already.

Addressing violence in Chicago: IIRC, he said stop and frisk will not work which is against what DJT is advocating for. I think there needs to be action, no more meetings, to come to resolution. Whether its calling in the National Guard to have 'presence' in gang areas. I agree that Rahn Emmanuel IS NOT doing enough.

Just my 2 cents.

Re: Kanye West and the vile art of shouting down opponents
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2018, 09:32:26 AM »

Offline slamtheking

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Kanye West is obviously a divisive figure.  He's probably not the first guy I'd turn to for political opinions, but neither is Robert DeNiro or Taylor Swift or Jane Fonda.  To be charitable, the celebrities who speak loudest about political issues aren't always the best advocates for the positions they're advancing.

What I don't like is that nobody wants to debate Kanye on ideas, or even address the ideas that Kanye is espousing.  I mean, does he have a point about violence in Chicago?  Does he have a point about how things haven't gotten much better for the poorest of black Americans over the last several decades?  Has the near-total allegiance to the Democrat Party been helpful to African-Americans, or are they instead just used as a voting block?  Do identity politics spring from a genuine desire to help people in certain constituencies, or just to pay lip service to them in order to get elected?

There's lots to be debated there.  Instead, this is what we get from the media:

Quote from: Don Lemon
What I saw was a minstrel show today—him in front of all these white people, mostly white people embarrassing himself and embarrassing Americans but mostly African Americans

Quote from: CNN commentator Bakari Sellers
“Kanye West is what happens when Neg***s don’t read.”

Quote from: CNN commentator Tara Setmayer
"Black folks are about to trade Kanye West in the racial draft, OK .... He’s the token neg** of the Trump administration.”

Is this where we are in 2018?  The thing you attack about Kanye West is...  his race? 

Call the guy incoherent, call him misinformed.  Those may be legitimate points.  Debate him on the merits.  But come on, don't go for racial cheap shots.

For years, the left has been using the term "racist" as a sword against legitimate criticism.  Scarily, that seems to be morphing into an even more radicalized agenda, where one's race is used against him or her as an attack.  In Kanye's case, he's attacked because he's black (except using uglier language).  In Susan Collins' case, prominent leftists attacked her for being a "white woman".  (And let's not even get into all the leftist attacks on Lindsey Graham for allegedly being a closeted homosexual.)

The trend recently has been to "shout down" opposing speech, rather than addressing it thoughtfully.  By bringing race into it, that ramps that up even further.  How the hell is this okay? 
I think you have a point at the core of this that the focus really should be on what's coming out of his mouth and his actions, not his race.  fully agree with that.  His race shouldn't matter one bit -- including when he throws the "N" word around --> no one should be using it.  period.  being black shouldn't give you a pass on that.  if it's wrong to use that word, it's wrong for everyone.  (getting off my personal soapbox on that)

Having said that, I find many people will pay little attention to media ****s like Kanye regardless of whether there may be a nugget of something worth discussing in that mountain of spew they issue forth.  What comes across is a ploy for attention rather than an insight into a topic worth discussing because the way they go about it is to do it in a way to call attention to themselves. 

He may have said something worth discussing but since I pay no attention to him (I refuse to play into his need for attention) I'll wait for a more credible/saner source to bring it up.  And to be clear, I take the same approach with other celebrities that spout off about politics -- conservative or liberal.   


Re: Kanye West and the vile art of shouting down opponents
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2018, 09:35:13 AM »

Online Smartacus

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If a left leaning poet or artist delivered an passionate decree on issues that they found important to Hilary Clinton, would Don Lemon have called it a minstrel show?

Kanye used his craft to bring forth issues that he finds important. I agree with Roy that the dismissive attitude toward him and others like him is ugly.

 

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