Author Topic: Paul Manafort bank and tax fraud trial  (Read 8930 times)

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Re: Paul Manafort bank and tax fraud trial
« Reply #30 on: August 03, 2018, 12:34:06 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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I think this will all be for nothing. I see an immediate pardon coming for him.
it wouldn't surprise me but 3 questions come to mind:
1. these charges aren't related to collusion/conspiracy but tax evasion.  what excuse would Trump have to pardon him without it looking like he's out to help his buddy?
2. would there be any kind of negative response from the Republicans in Congress?  would seem to be an implicit approval of Trump's actions during the campaign and quite probably give him the green light to pardon everyone connected to him without repercussions.
3. what would be the public reaction?  Sure, Dems in office and those against Trump would be up in arms, and I think justifiably so, but how many people outside that group will speak out against a pardon.

Great points. And my guess is that's why Mueller will keep this trial all about tax evasion/fraud. Nothing about collusion.

This trial is about tax evasion and fraud and nothing else.  Their is no evidence that it is connected to Trump.
to the best of my knowledge, that is true and my point.  with no connection to Trump, there should be no thought of a pardon upon conviction --> just like anyone else convicted of tax evasion and fraud.

Re: Paul Manafort bank and tax fraud trial
« Reply #31 on: August 03, 2018, 01:41:22 PM »

Offline Cman

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I think this will all be for nothing. I see an immediate pardon coming for him.
it wouldn't surprise me but 3 questions come to mind:
1. these charges aren't related to collusion/conspiracy but tax evasion.  what excuse would Trump have to pardon him without it looking like he's out to help his buddy?
2. would there be any kind of negative response from the Republicans in Congress?  would seem to be an implicit approval of Trump's actions during the campaign and quite probably give him the green light to pardon everyone connected to him without repercussions.
3. what would be the public reaction?  Sure, Dems in office and those against Trump would be up in arms, and I think justifiably so, but how many people outside that group will speak out against a pardon.

Great points. And my guess is that's why Mueller will keep this trial all about tax evasion/fraud. Nothing about collusion.

This trial is about tax evasion and fraud and nothing else.  Their is no evidence that it is connected to Trump.
to the best of my knowledge, that is true and my point.  with no connection to Trump, there should be no thought of a pardon upon conviction --> just like anyone else convicted of tax evasion and fraud.

Exactly. Manafort has been unpatriotically cheating the American government - ie you and me - for years. Who would want to pardon someone like that? I mean, even most illegal immigrants pay their taxes, but not this guy.
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Re: Paul Manafort bank and tax fraud trial
« Reply #32 on: August 03, 2018, 01:52:58 PM »

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I think this will all be for nothing. I see an immediate pardon coming for him.
it wouldn't surprise me but 3 questions come to mind:
1. these charges aren't related to collusion/conspiracy but tax evasion.  what excuse would Trump have to pardon him without it looking like he's out to help his buddy?
2. would there be any kind of negative response from the Republicans in Congress?  would seem to be an implicit approval of Trump's actions during the campaign and quite probably give him the green light to pardon everyone connected to him without repercussions.
3. what would be the public reaction?  Sure, Dems in office and those against Trump would be up in arms, and I think justifiably so, but how many people outside that group will speak out against a pardon.

Great points. And my guess is that's why Mueller will keep this trial all about tax evasion/fraud. Nothing about collusion.

It's clear at this point that Trump's base will support him no matter what, including a pardon for Manafort regardless of the charges. And therefore Republicans in Congress won't do anything beyond clicking their tongues and shaking their heads; some would even praise the pardon.

Democrats, of course, would call for impeachment if Trump ate a salad with the dinner fork. Pardoning Manafort will make them completely unhinged, even though they have to expect it by now.

Assuming Independents actually exist anymore, I'd hope this would be the nail in the coffin of their Trump support.

Actually, as an independent, both parties have officially lost me. Some of the Democrats have definitely lost me with the way they handled losing the election and some of the comments that have come out from their side. An olive branch from them has definitely not been offered and it clear that the best interest of the nation is not at the top of their to do list. It is amazing the level of scrutiny Trump has received. The "thing" with Stormy Daniels was classic- Even Bill Clinton had it easier back in the days of Monica and that was while he was in office!  But then again, social media was not around in full force like it is today and some of the news channels were not as biased back in that decade. When someone loses something and cannot own up to it, that is a show of character. For me, the Democrat Party character has been damaged and socialistic candidates will not endear me to them more. The idea that guilty til proven innocent has become the norm, that makes me sickened on so many levels and is truly embarrassing as an American.

Some Republicans also leave a lot to be desired. I am a big proponent on rights for women and other groups who should be allowed the same privileges as "straight" people. I do support tax breaks though and for a business person, my best times have always been under Republican rule. Some of the Republicans definitely scare me though, and would not want to see them in charge of our country. The idea of Pence or Sessions running our country makes me want to get under a heavy dose of anti-depressants! The ironic thing is that if the Democrats had their way, Trump would get impeached and Pence would take over the reigns...You think Donald scares you!

I have voted both parties since 1992 though and did support Clinton in his 2 terms. I also split in 2000 and 2004(one vote one way and one vote the other). I leaned toward Democrat following that but could not support either candidate this last election. I am disenchanted...ready for a change..but not the Socialism type of change! I hope an independent candidate comes out and runs on a moral high ground and shakes everything up but I think we are still not ready although getting closer to that. My biggest fear is that a Socialist candidate gets into the oval house. That kind of government would be the only thing that would seriously give me thought about country of residence.

2020 is coming soon...if in 2 years the Democrats are still trying to blame other's for their loss, they will have a hard time in getting me back on that side of aisle. I will also have 4 years of Trump to analyze then...how is the economy doing in 2020? Is our country more safe or less safe then before? Have they enacted any regulations that I am utterly opposed to? and then my hope of someone in the middle appearing on the scene and challenging both sides which as we know in this day and age of controlled media, close to impossible to get elected but trust me, many Americans are disenchanted and Millennials are at the top of the list.....here is hoping the Millennials do not lean Socialist.

[Deleted because, eh, you've probably heard it before. The tl;dr is that I think Trump is different and the objections are about more than policy.]



Re: Paul Manafort bank and tax fraud trial
« Reply #33 on: August 06, 2018, 08:51:37 PM »

Offline Cman

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Manafort's former business partner Rick Gates testified today. A couple things of note:
1) Gates says Manafort had 15 offshore bank accounts, none of which was reported to IRS, all of which was illegal and that Manafort was well aware of this.
2) Gates cheated Manafort out of several hundred thousands of dollars. No honor among thieves, I guess. Note, Gates was Donald Trump's deputy campaign manager....

None of this really has anything to do with Trump, except show that he is clearly a really, really bad judge of character.

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Re: Paul Manafort bank and tax fraud trial
« Reply #34 on: August 06, 2018, 09:27:34 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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Manafort's former business partner Rick Gates testified today. A couple things of note:
1) Gates says Manafort had 15 offshore bank accounts, none of which was reported to IRS, all of which was illegal and that Manafort was well aware of this.
2) Gates cheated Manafort out of several hundred thousands of dollars. No honor among thieves, I guess. Note, Gates was Donald Trump's deputy campaign manager....

None of this really has anything to do with Trump, except show that he is clearly a really, really bad judge of character.
or perhaps it shows like-minded (or more accurately like-moraled) birds of a feather flock together. 

I don't think it's just a coincidence Trump never released his tax returns for review.  I suspect Trump also has some $ hidden away somewhere that he didn't pay taxes on.  that, and I suspect his returns would either expose him as something other than a financial genius or that people would see just how much the new tax laws benefited him and his pals as opposed to the rest of the American taxpayers

Re: Paul Manafort bank and tax fraud trial
« Reply #35 on: August 06, 2018, 09:34:55 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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Manafort's former business partner Rick Gates testified today. A couple things of note:
1) Gates says Manafort had 15 offshore bank accounts, none of which was reported to IRS, all of which was illegal and that Manafort was well aware of this.
2) Gates cheated Manafort out of several hundred thousands of dollars. No honor among thieves, I guess. Note, Gates was Donald Trump's deputy campaign manager....

None of this really has anything to do with Trump, except show that he is clearly a really, really bad judge of character.

Deng, it's practically impossible to keep track of all of the characters in this story, lol ;D.

Re: Paul Manafort bank and tax fraud trial
« Reply #36 on: August 06, 2018, 10:12:16 PM »

Offline Cman

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Manafort's former business partner Rick Gates testified today. A couple things of note:
1) Gates says Manafort had 15 offshore bank accounts, none of which was reported to IRS, all of which was illegal and that Manafort was well aware of this.
2) Gates cheated Manafort out of several hundred thousands of dollars. No honor among thieves, I guess. Note, Gates was Donald Trump's deputy campaign manager....

None of this really has anything to do with Trump, except show that he is clearly a really, really bad judge of character.

Deng, it's practically impossible to keep track of all of the characters in this story, lol ;D.

Well, super short crib notes version:
-Manafort almost certainly broke the law. We will see if the jury finds him guilty or not. At this point it is hard to believe they won’t.
-The fact that Trump had Manafort and Gates run his campaign tells you all you need to know about Trump. If you didn’t already know from Flynn, Zinke, Pruitt, etc...
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Re: Paul Manafort bank and tax fraud trial
« Reply #37 on: August 07, 2018, 12:31:28 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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Couple of unexplored wrinkles from the trial

- both the indictments and now Gates have indicated that Konstantin Kilimnik, an alleged GRU agent and recently indicted business associate, had signatory control over some of Manafort's illegal offshore accounts. If allegations are true, a Russian intelligence agent with direct connections to major oligarchs controlled Trump's campaign manager's personal accounts at a time when he was rapidly running out of money, committing a lot of financial crimes to cover it up, and "working for free" running the future POTUS' campaign.

- In emails released last year Manafort contacted Kilimnik shortly after becoming campaign manager asking him to talk to Deripaska, a major oligarch he worked for, and offered "private meetings" and how to use his status to "get whole". Kilimnik replied by cryptically requesting a meeting to talk about "a large jar of black caviar". Shortly after meeting in August Manafort told his accountant to expect a $2.4 million payment for Ukraine work to become available in November.

There's some post hoc/propter hoc going on here, and more than one plausible explanation, but it's an incredibly shady situation for anyone to be in, let alone the manager for a campaign neck-deep in the same kinds of dubious connections and meetings.

Re: Paul Manafort bank and tax fraud trial
« Reply #38 on: August 07, 2018, 12:39:52 PM »

Offline Cman

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Couple of unexplored wrinkles from the trial

- both the indictments and now Gates have indicated that Konstantin Kilimnik, an alleged GRU agent and recently indicted business associate, had signatory control over some of Manafort's illegal offshore accounts. If allegations are true, a Russian intelligence agent with direct connections to major oligarchs controlled Trump's campaign manager's personal accounts at a time when he was rapidly running out of money, committing a lot of financial crimes to cover it up, and "working for free" running the future POTUS' campaign.

- In emails released last year Manafort contacted Kilimnik shortly after becoming campaign manager asking him to talk to Deripaska, a major oligarch he worked for, and offered "private meetings" and how to use his status to "get whole". Kilimnik replied by cryptically requesting a meeting to talk about "a large jar of black caviar". Shortly after meeting in August Manafort told his accountant to expect a $2.4 million payment for Ukraine work to become available in November.

There's some post hoc/propter hoc going on here, and more than one plausible explanation, but it's an incredibly shady situation for anyone to be in, let alone the manager for a campaign neck-deep in the same kinds of dubious connections and meetings.

1) In my mind, there's no question that Manafort engaged in bank and tax fraud. Whether he's found guilty or not is another question.

2) I agree there's lots of signs pointing to Manafort using, or perhaps trying to use, his position with Trump to drum up "consulting business" with Russians. But, so far it just seems like another case of "selling access" which is similar to what Michael Cohen did (e.g, w/ Novartis) after the election.
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Re: Paul Manafort bank and tax fraud trial
« Reply #39 on: August 07, 2018, 12:48:41 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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Couple of unexplored wrinkles from the trial

- both the indictments and now Gates have indicated that Konstantin Kilimnik, an alleged GRU agent and recently indicted business associate, had signatory control over some of Manafort's illegal offshore accounts. If allegations are true, a Russian intelligence agent with direct connections to major oligarchs controlled Trump's campaign manager's personal accounts at a time when he was rapidly running out of money, committing a lot of financial crimes to cover it up, and "working for free" running the future POTUS' campaign.

- In emails released last year Manafort contacted Kilimnik shortly after becoming campaign manager asking him to talk to Deripaska, a major oligarch he worked for, and offered "private meetings" and how to use his status to "get whole". Kilimnik replied by cryptically requesting a meeting to talk about "a large jar of black caviar". Shortly after meeting in August Manafort told his accountant to expect a $2.4 million payment for Ukraine work to become available in November.

There's some post hoc/propter hoc going on here, and more than one plausible explanation, but it's an incredibly shady situation for anyone to be in, let alone the manager for a campaign neck-deep in the same kinds of dubious connections and meetings.

1) In my mind, there's no question that Manafort engaged in bank and tax fraud. Whether he's found guilty or not is another question.

2) I agree there's lots of signs pointing to Manafort using, or perhaps trying to use, his position with Trump to drum up "consulting business" with Russians. But, so far it just seems like another case of "selling access" which is similar to what Michael Cohen did (e.g, w/ Novartis) after the election.

1. Oh yeah, even with knowing nothing about financial law no one's even pretending he isn't completely walled in by the evidence they're providing.

2. Like a lot of these connections, they confirm very little and most can be explained away in a vacuum, but in the total context they at minimum deserve to be gotten to the bottom of. Unprecedented levels of foreign entanglement at the highest levels of a campaign while the same country is engaging in cyber warfare on the candidate's behalf and the candidate spends years covering for it and the interests of the perpetrators.  Not wanting to jump to conclusions is a good thing but it shouldn't be disregarded either. The potential for compromise, blackmail etc is enormous and the circumstantial evidence is glaring.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 01:44:18 PM by fairweatherfan »

Re: Paul Manafort bank and tax fraud trial
« Reply #40 on: August 07, 2018, 01:35:41 PM »

Offline Jon

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One of the more amusing parts of this thing is how stupid Manafort was in terms of putting this all in writing via email.

https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/manafort-trial/h_92ca067ce38d3c0417fb02f814733199

I think it’s a testament to 1) his stupidity and 2) his age. He definitely didn’t grow up in an era where digital records were permanent.

I wouldn’t be surprised if similar things come back to bite the Trump inner circle, who are all at least stupid or old, if not both.

Re: Paul Manafort bank and tax fraud trial
« Reply #41 on: August 07, 2018, 01:53:55 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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One of the more amusing parts of this thing is how stupid Manafort was in terms of putting this all in writing via email.

https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/manafort-trial/h_92ca067ce38d3c0417fb02f814733199

I think it’s a testament to 1) his stupidity and 2) his age. He definitely didn’t grow up in an era where digital records were permanent.

I wouldn’t be surprised if similar things come back to bite the Trump inner circle, who are all at least stupid or old, if not both.

They busted him on one illegal transaction because he emailed a Word doc with incriminating info to Gates(?) to have it converted to a PDF and sent back. Manafort didn't know how to do it himself.  ;D

Re: Paul Manafort bank and tax fraud trial
« Reply #42 on: August 07, 2018, 03:43:07 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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One of the more amusing parts of this thing is how stupid Manafort was in terms of putting this all in writing via email.

https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/manafort-trial/h_92ca067ce38d3c0417fb02f814733199

I think it’s a testament to 1) his stupidity and 2) his age. He definitely didn’t grow up in an era where digital records were permanent.

I wouldn’t be surprised if similar things come back to bite the Trump inner circle, who are all at least stupid or old, if not both.

They busted him on one illegal transaction because he emailed a Word doc with incriminating info to Gates(?) to have it converted to a PDF and sent back. Manafort didn't know how to do it himself.  ;D

Lol, that kind of reminds me of all of those "please print" passages from Hillary's emails ::) ;D.

Re: Paul Manafort bank and tax fraud trial
« Reply #43 on: August 07, 2018, 04:38:27 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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One of the more amusing parts of this thing is how stupid Manafort was in terms of putting this all in writing via email.

https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/manafort-trial/h_92ca067ce38d3c0417fb02f814733199

I think it’s a testament to 1) his stupidity and 2) his age. He definitely didn’t grow up in an era where digital records were permanent.

I wouldn’t be surprised if similar things come back to bite the Trump inner circle, who are all at least stupid or old, if not both.

They busted him on one illegal transaction because he emailed a Word doc with incriminating info to Gates(?) to have it converted to a PDF and sent back. Manafort didn't know how to do it himself.  ;D

Lol, that kind of reminds me of all of those "please print" passages from Hillary's emails ::) ;D.

Man, old powerful people freaking LOVE having their emails printed! It's the most bizarre thing for just about anyone under 45 or so. And a lot just dictate their responses back. It's so absurdly wasteful.


Rick Gates just testified that since flipping in February he's met with Mueller's team at least 20 times. Which seems like a lot.

Re: Paul Manafort bank and tax fraud trial
« Reply #44 on: August 07, 2018, 04:43:37 PM »

Offline Jon

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One of the more amusing parts of this thing is how stupid Manafort was in terms of putting this all in writing via email.

https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/manafort-trial/h_92ca067ce38d3c0417fb02f814733199

I think it’s a testament to 1) his stupidity and 2) his age. He definitely didn’t grow up in an era where digital records were permanent.

I wouldn’t be surprised if similar things come back to bite the Trump inner circle, who are all at least stupid or old, if not both.

They busted him on one illegal transaction because he emailed a Word doc with incriminating info to Gates(?) to have it converted to a PDF and sent back. Manafort didn't know how to do it himself.  ;D

Lol, that kind of reminds me of all of those "please print" passages from Hillary's emails ::) ;D.

Man, old powerful people freaking LOVE having their emails printed! It's the most bizarre thing for just about anyone under 45 or so. And a lot just dictate their responses back. It's so absurdly wasteful.


Rick Gates just testified that since flipping in February he's met with Mueller's team at least 20 times. Which seems like a lot.

I realize that this is probably a topic for another thread, but this is just a minor example of why—if I had it my way—there would be a mandatory retirement age of 70 for all major public offices (and I’d cut terms short or forbid them from running if they turned 70 in office).

While we’re talking about criminal behavior here, we’re also seeing how out of touch these people are with the modern world.

And I say all of this as a very liberal person who may be looking at having to vote for people like Biden, Sanders, Clinton, and Warren in 2020. I hope none of them get the nomination.

 

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