Author Topic: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida - GUILTY VERDICT  (Read 10033 times)

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Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #60 on: July 24, 2018, 10:33:35 AM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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Every gun training protocol teaches to shoot. Put as many shots on target as you can. Once the assault has started itís either you or him.

Maybe we should have better gun training protocol then.
Ow
You would be singing a different tune if he didnít have a gun and died from blunt force trauma. Heís lucky that he was armed and he acted 100% correct. You donít screw around when youíre an old man on the ground. Did you want him to take a beating first like Zimmerman?

Drawing the gun isnít the problem. Shooting the guy when he was in a non-threatening posture was..

And, is 47 ďold manĒ status now?

Oh lord I hope not.  If nothing else, Erik, please acknowledge agreement that 47 isnít old.


And hereís something to disagree with: if you are carrying, you have an added obligation to avoid either initiating or escalating unnecessary confrontations (i,e., confrontations that arenít necessitated by a safety issue). It seems that if gun-carriers are going to be self-deputized, they should be trained in, and primarily focused on, mitigating or avoiding confrontation or escalation. My guess is (being not privy to details) that the shooter could have opted not to engage in ďpolicingĒ the parked car violator ó or perhaps could calmly just point out to the operator that the car is parked illegally and walk away.   

It is possible that he is emboldened to confront because he carries ó and if so... sorry, but I think thatís wrong and should be considered in the adjudication of this type of case.

Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #61 on: July 24, 2018, 10:36:41 AM »

Offline indeedproceed

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Moral of the story to me seems like: Don't Go To Florida, A Crazy Person Might Legally Self-Defense You To Death Using Poorly Written Law


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Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #62 on: July 24, 2018, 10:39:31 AM »

Offline Donoghus

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Sounds like this guy was just waiting for this opportunity.

Pretty much where my head is at after watching the video & reading some of the background on the guy. 

This guy was looking for the opportunity to be a tough guy.  Getting shoved gave him the perfect opportunity to do it.   Having a gun emboldened him.

Sad stuff. 


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Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #63 on: July 24, 2018, 10:47:48 AM »

Offline Fan from VT

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1. I think if there is a fatal shooting it shouldn't be up to the police to decide if it was "stand your ground." I think it must be reviewed by the DA to see if there are grounds for a trial, and if there is uncertainty, a jury (or judge) should decide.

2. I think stand your ground is only going to be stupid and dangerous; that's my bias. It seems unnecessary, given that self defense is already justified. Maybe I'm ok with wording of law that mentions a "right not to retreat" in the context of your home, but not in public.

3. This is a dangerous road to go down. Especially with conceal carry/open carry. For example, what if both of the people in Florida had a gun? What if the shopper saw this guy yelling at his wife, had a "reasonable threat for her safety," and shot and killed the eventual shooter first? Essentially, this law is leading to a situation of "if you are going to initiate physical contact, might as well just shoot them right off the bat, because what if they are carrying a gun and will shoot me if i push them." And then people will say "oh, but you shouldn't escalate to violence from words" but, honestly, are pretty fine with, for example, police escalating to brutality when it is "just words." What if the case had unfolded just the way it did, but the shooter fired 2 shots and killed a passerby? Florida would just be like "oh well, thoughts and prayers, guy was standing his ground." Going back to the "when to start physical contact" question, lets say it's an open carry situation, and a guy wearing a gun starts yelling at you aggressively for stuff that's not his business...that seems pretty "reasonably threatening"...does that justify yanking out a gun and shooting before this person yelling and wearing a gun escalates things?

4. There is no way to talk about this and leaving race/gender out of it. I don't think this law is ever going to be equally applied, which makes it really troublesome. The way it is always worded in the press is "reasonable concern of death or injury," which is already used to justify tons of police brutality, by pushing the edge of "reasonable" in front of a jury. So, its just going to play into racial stereotypes in terms of "isn't it 'reasonable' to be scared of that black guy?" kind of stuff. I would make a healthy wager that stand your ground is going to be very disproportionately applied.

Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #64 on: July 24, 2018, 10:52:41 AM »

Offline saltlover

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Moral of the story to me seems like: Don't Go To Florida, A Crazy Person Might Legally Self-Defense You To Death Using Poorly Written Law

Every time one of these events is publicized my wife says that she doesnít want to take a vacation to Florida, and I donít blame her.  We havenít been and are unlikely to go any time soon.

Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #65 on: July 24, 2018, 11:04:26 AM »

Offline Erik

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The shove was unnecessary but not criminal I don't think.

You may want to rethink that.
how is the shove not self defense under the stand your ground law?

Because no reasonable person would think there was an imminent fear of serious bodily injury just because somebody is arguing with their wife. 

The victim had no right to attack the shooter. The shooter shouldnít have a right to shoot a non-threatening assailant out of revenge.

That shove was felony assault. It marked the second time a crime had been committed (first was parking in a handicapped spot).

I love how people can declare that the man was not threatened from the "privilege" (finally got to use that word) of behind their computer. He was pushed so hard that he fell to the ground and rolled over. Who knows if he hit his head on the ground? Then the assailant (I refuse to call him the victim) took additional steps forward and pulled up his pants (fighting gesture). Sorry, I don't see how you guys can claim for him that he wasn't threatened.

Quote
Every gun training protocol teaches to shoot. Put as many shots on target as you can. Once the assault has started itís either you or him.

Maybe we should have better gun training protocol then.
Ow
You would be singing a different tune if he didnít have a gun and died from blunt force trauma. Heís lucky that he was armed and he acted 100% correct. You donít screw around when youíre an old man on the ground. Did you want him to take a beating first like Zimmerman?

Drawing the gun isnít the problem. Shooting the guy when he was in a non-threatening posture was..

And, is 47 ďold manĒ status now?

Oh lord I hope not.  If nothing else, Erik, please acknowledge agreement that 47 isnít old.


And hereís something to disagree with: if you are carrying, you have an added obligation to avoid either initiating or escalating unnecessary confrontations (i,e., confrontations that arenít necessitated by a safety issue). It seems that if gun-carriers are going to be self-deputized, they should be trained in, and primarily focused on, mitigating or avoiding confrontation or escalation. My guess is (being not privy to details) that the shooter could have opted not to engage in ďpolicingĒ the parked car violator ó or perhaps could calmly just point out to the operator that the car is parked illegally and walk away.   

It is possible that he is emboldened to confront because he carries ó and if so... sorry, but I think thatís wrong and should be considered in the adjudication of this type of case.

47 years old isn't "old" but definitely not prime fighting age. Especially not against a mid 20 year old.

I would say that *everyone* should not be looking for confrontations. Not just concealed carry holders. This guy is definitely not a model citizen either. I meant that he was 100% justified in all of his actions AFTER the shove. Before, he was clearly a jerk.

Either way, I am responsible for my actions. Someone can talk all day to me. As long as they do not put their hands on me, I will not put my hands on them. Had he not fought, he would have lived. You know how many times people have said really rude things to me in public? I just ignore them and continue walking because I have a wife and a kid and I'm too smart to be fist fighting. The moment I escalate words into violence, I have put my family in jeopardy. I will never do it unless I have no other choice.

Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #66 on: July 24, 2018, 11:04:42 AM »

Offline gift

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Moral of the story to me seems like: Don't Go To Florida, A Crazy Person Might Legally Self-Defense You To Death Using Poorly Written Law

Every time one of these events is publicized my wife says that she doesnít want to take a vacation to Florida, and I donít blame her.  We havenít been and are unlikely to go any time soon.

It is amazing how many crazy stories and national news come out of Florida.

Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #67 on: July 24, 2018, 11:07:15 AM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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Moral of the story to me seems like: Don't Go To Florida, A Crazy Person Might Legally Self-Defense You To Death Using Poorly Written Law

Every time one of these events is publicized my wife says that she doesnít want to take a vacation to Florida, and I donít blame her.  We havenít been and are unlikely to go any time soon.

I've never wanted to go to Florida. I have several relatives who winter or live year-round there, and they say it's basically a sauna. And I've never liked humidity.
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Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #68 on: July 24, 2018, 11:46:19 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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That shove was felony assault

What makes it felonious?  Did the assailant have a prior?  Did it result in great bodily injury / disability / disfigurement?  Was it against somebody who was pregnant?  Was a deadly weapon involved?  Did it involve strangulation?

Yeah...  not a felony.
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Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #69 on: July 24, 2018, 11:53:32 AM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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Either way, I am responsible for my actions. Someone can talk all day to me. As long as they do not put their hands on me, I will not put my hands on them. Had he not fought, he would have lived. You know how many times people have said really rude things to me in public? I just ignore them and continue walking because I have a wife and a kid and I'm too smart to be fist fighting. The moment I escalate words into violence, I have put my family in jeopardy. I will never do it unless I have no other choice.


...unless you kill someone for shoving you.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2018, 12:01:26 PM by fairweatherfan »

Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #70 on: July 24, 2018, 12:55:51 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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The shove was unnecessary but not criminal I don't think.

You may want to rethink that.
how is the shove not self defense under the stand your ground law?

This is exactly my thinking.  Step back from this for a moment and just consider what some people are trying to rationalize.  Shoving a stranger who is clearly acting out some sort of road rage (or parking rage) against your wife is criminal but pulling out your gun and killing someone who shoved you is not?

Do we really want this to be how it is in our country?  I sure don't.  I am all for people having guns for hunting but this should be murder.  If you decide to carry a gun around, you should be held fully accountable for anything that results from that.

The scenario that I play out is say Michael Drejka had called the police and they respond and he tells them "arrest this man, he shoved me", do you really think the police would arrest him once they understood that Drejka was "road raging" on the man's wife/girlfriend?

I sure hope not.

Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #71 on: July 24, 2018, 01:04:17 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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The shove was unnecessary but not criminal I don't think.

You may want to rethink that.
how is the shove not self defense under the stand your ground law?

This is exactly my thinking.  Step back from this for a moment and just consider what some people are trying to rationalize.  Shoving a stranger who is clearly acting out some sort of road rage (or parking rage) against your wife is criminal but pulling out your gun and killing someone who shoved you is not?

Do we really want this to be how it is in our country?  I sure don't.  I am all for people having guns for hunting but this should be murder.  If you decide to carry a gun around, you should be held fully accountable for anything that results from that.

The scenario that I play out is say Michael Drejka had called the police and they respond and he tells them "arrest this man, he shoved me", do you really think the police would arrest him once they understood that Drejka was "road raging" on the man's wife/girlfriend?

I sure hope not.
I'd hope some rational thought would be applied but I don't think it could be assumed.   I'd say there's a definite possibility he gets arrested for the shove as well as the wife getting a ticket for parking in a handicapped space. 
I'm sure they would have gladly taken that outcome if given the option over him being shot to death.

Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #72 on: July 24, 2018, 01:43:22 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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The shove was unnecessary but not criminal I don't think.

You may want to rethink that.
how is the shove not self defense under the stand your ground law?

The scenario that I play out is say Michael Drejka had called the police and they respond and he tells them "arrest this man, he shoved me", do you really think the police would arrest him once they understood that Drejka was "road raging" on the man's wife/girlfriend?

First, that's not road rage. It's also hard to suggest she was in fear of Drejka when she exited a secure place (vehicle) in order to confront him.

Yes, McGlockton would get arrested assuming one of 3 things occur:
1. An independent witness corroborates Drejka's account
2. McGlockton admits he pushed Drejka
3. CCTV is reviewed and captures the incident



Based on what I see and heard I surmise the following:

* Drejka had a history of confronting people parked in disabled spaces.
* McGlockton was parked illegally
* Drejka approached the GF (no audio available), but the female exited the vehicle to confront him. This makes it likely that she was not in fear.
* McGlockton observes the argument and pushes Drejka to the ground
* McGlockton, as he takes a step forward, seems to be fiddling with his clothing. This at the very least could make Drejka believe that McGlockton was armed.
* Drejka shoots McGlockton as he took a step back, but did he see him step back. This part is important because if Drejka states that he was pushed to the ground, believed the individual was reaching for a weapon, and he was in fear for life, then the argument could be made that based on his vantage point, fearfulness, and/or him focusing on his front sights, he never observed McGlockton take a step back.

The only way the SAO files charges is due to public pressure, but it's not a winnable case based on the letter of the law.

Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #73 on: July 24, 2018, 01:56:50 PM »

Offline Moranis

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The shove was unnecessary but not criminal I don't think.

You may want to rethink that.
how is the shove not self defense under the stand your ground law?

The scenario that I play out is say Michael Drejka had called the police and they respond and he tells them "arrest this man, he shoved me", do you really think the police would arrest him once they understood that Drejka was "road raging" on the man's wife/girlfriend?

First, that's not road rage. It's also hard to suggest she was in fear of Drejka when she exited a secure place (vehicle) in order to confront him.

Yes, McGlockton would get arrested assuming one of 3 things occur:
1. An independent witness corroborates Drejka's account
2. McGlockton admits he pushed Drejka
3. CCTV is reviewed and captures the incident



Based on what I see and heard I surmise the following:

* Drejka had a history of confronting people parked in disabled spaces.
* McGlockton was parked illegally
* Drejka approached the GF (no audio available), but the female exited the vehicle to confront him. This makes it likely that she was not in fear.
* McGlockton observes the argument and pushes Drejka to the ground
* McGlockton, as he takes a step forward, seems to be fiddling with his clothing. This at the very least could make Drejka believe that McGlockton was armed.
* Drejka shoots McGlockton as he took a step back, but did he see him step back. This part is important because if Drejka states that he was pushed to the ground, believed the individual was reaching for a weapon, and he was in fear for life, then the argument could be made that based on his vantage point, fearfulness, and/or him focusing on his front sights, he never observed McGlockton take a step back.

The only way the SAO files charges is due to public pressure, but it's not a winnable case based on the letter of the law.
Of course it is a winnable case even under the letter of the law.
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Re: Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida
« Reply #74 on: July 24, 2018, 01:59:19 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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The shove was unnecessary but not criminal I don't think.

You may want to rethink that.
how is the shove not self defense under the stand your ground law?

The scenario that I play out is say Michael Drejka had called the police and they respond and he tells them "arrest this man, he shoved me", do you really think the police would arrest him once they understood that Drejka was "road raging" on the man's wife/girlfriend?

First, that's not road rage. It's also hard to suggest she was in fear of Drejka when she exited a secure place (vehicle) in order to confront him.

Yes, McGlockton would get arrested assuming one of 3 things occur:
1. An independent witness corroborates Drejka's account
2. McGlockton admits he pushed Drejka
3. CCTV is reviewed and captures the incident



Based on what I see and heard I surmise the following:

* Drejka had a history of confronting people parked in disabled spaces.
* McGlockton was parked illegally
* Drejka approached the GF (no audio available), but the female exited the vehicle to confront him. This makes it likely that she was not in fear.
* McGlockton observes the argument and pushes Drejka to the ground
* McGlockton, as he takes a step forward, seems to be fiddling with his clothing. This at the very least could make Drejka believe that McGlockton was armed.
* Drejka shoots McGlockton as he took a step back, but did he see him step back. This part is important because if Drejka states that he was pushed to the ground, believed the individual was reaching for a weapon, and he was in fear for life, then the argument could be made that based on his vantage point, fearfulness, and/or him focusing on his front sights, he never observed McGlockton take a step back.

The only way the SAO files charges is due to public pressure, but it's not a winnable case based on the letter of the law.

That is a lot of words but after watching the tape, do you think McGlockton was getting ready to escalate situation?  All Drejka had to do was shut up and walk away.  He could write down the license plate number and tell the police about the parking.  But he didn't.  He made the decision to pull out his gun and shoot a person dead.

If the law as written somehow allows this, the law should change.

I have not heard much or had time to research but what are Florida conservative politicians saying about this.  Are they actually making statements in support of a law that allows this type of shooting?

 

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