Author Topic: Stephen Miller  (Read 7773 times)

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Re: Stephen Miller
« Reply #120 on: June 20, 2018, 12:23:23 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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In other news Homeland Sec tried to have a work dinner at a Mexican restaurant in DC... it didn't go all that well.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44550252
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Re: Stephen Miller
« Reply #121 on: June 20, 2018, 12:27:17 PM »

Offline Erik

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But what would you think would happen if the person who is illegally entering here did not get caught? Do you think they would go ask for asylum? Before responding "there's no way you could know," let's be real here. If they're eventually going to ask for asylum because they want to be legal citizens of the country, why didn't they just go to the border patrol office in the first place? It's pretty clear that this is Plan B.
So you're ok with second-guessing the law in this case, but not in the case when the administration goes out of its way to grease the wheels of questionable family separations?

But to answer your particular question, one possible reason is in order not to be turned away by Border Patrol.

I don't fully understand what you mean "goes out of its way." Are you suggesting that had this not been the law, that they'd be doing it anyways?


Correct, I misspoke. Caretaker in the form of a relative, friend, OR HHS. The law change I'm referring to would be that the parents can choose to just keep the kid with them for the entire 20 days.
But the fact remains that even as we speak, there isn't a legal reason why they shouldn't be able to. Immediate separation at the border is not a legal requirement, it's something the administration chose to do as a mode of operation.

From what I understand, the alternative is to release the children and parents into the country pending asylum claim. That seems like a pretty easy way to illegally enter the country to me.

Would you even be OK with a system that detains the adult & child together for the duration of the asylum claim, or is your MO to let them freely go into our country? If it's the former, I would agree with you. If it's the latter, it seems to me like you're using this issue to get to your real desire: open borders.




Great news that Trump is doing something:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/06/20/white-house-considering-executive-action-to-prevent-family-separations-at-border.html

Quote
The White House is considering executive action to allow children to stay with parents caught crossing the border illegally, Fox News has learned -- a step that could avoid the family separations that have triggered a national outcry and political crisis for Republicans.

The action under consideration would allow children to stay in detention with parents for an extended period of time. This comes as congressional Republicans scramble to draft legislation to address the same issue, but face challenges mustering the votes.

Hopefully ASAP.

This actually is not great news even though the outcome is ideal. Executive action is not meant to be a replacement for congress doing their work. This is why we have a constitution with checks and balances. The executive branch is not supposed to have this amount of power.

Re: Stephen Miller
« Reply #122 on: June 20, 2018, 12:40:33 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Great news that Trump is doing something:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/06/20/white-house-considering-executive-action-to-prevent-family-separations-at-border.html

Quote
The White House is considering executive action to allow children to stay with parents caught crossing the border illegally, Fox News has learned -- a step that could avoid the family separations that have triggered a national outcry and political crisis for Republicans.

The action under consideration would allow children to stay in detention with parents for an extended period of time. This comes as congressional Republicans scramble to draft legislation to address the same issue, but face challenges mustering the votes.

Hopefully ASAP.

Even though Congress should be the one acting, I'm completely on board with this.  Hopefully special interest groups don't sue to stop its enactment.


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Re: Stephen Miller
« Reply #123 on: June 20, 2018, 12:45:48 PM »

Online Roy H.

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I guess Trump just stated he will sign something into effect in a little while that will end the separation of children from their families at the border.

This is after blaming Democrats for everything going on:


Donald J. Trump

@realDonaldTrump
 It’s the Democrats fault, they won’t give us the votes needed to pass good immigration legislation. They want open borders, which breeds horrible crime. Republicans want security. But I am working on something - it never ends!

9:41 AM - Jun 20, 2018

Strangely, it was Trump's decision to enforce the laws at the border to their "by the letter of the law" extreme but sure, that's the fault of Dems. SMH. ::) ::) ::)

It's not the Democrats' fault.  It's the fault of both parties -- both extremists and moderates -- who have left immigration unaddressed for decades.

I will say that whoever first instituted the "catch and release" policy, and each and every administration and Attorney General who has endorsed it, has plenty of culpability.  Our policy should have been zero tolerance from the start.


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Re: Stephen Miller
« Reply #124 on: June 20, 2018, 12:48:12 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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This actually is not great news even though the outcome is ideal. Executive action is not meant to be a replacement for congress doing their work. This is why we have a constitution with checks and balances. The executive branch is not supposed to have this amount of power.
I agree, but it might still be better to have this than a hastily put together bill where a common sense measure is held hostage by other unsavory policies. Congress can (and should) pass a well-though bill down the road.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: Stephen Miller
« Reply #125 on: June 20, 2018, 12:53:17 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Our policy should have been zero tolerance from the start.
So what's the end game here? Right now, you pretty much sentence everyone to time served and send them back. You really think putting all of those people in American jails is a workable solution?
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: Stephen Miller
« Reply #126 on: June 20, 2018, 12:53:17 PM »

Offline celticinorlando

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You want to be tougher on illegal immigration that is great. Just don’t separate families. Send them home together. Hopefully this reunites families ASAP
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Re: Stephen Miller
« Reply #127 on: June 20, 2018, 12:58:14 PM »

Offline Erik

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Our policy should have been zero tolerance from the start.
So what's the end game here? Right now, you pretty much sentence everyone to time served and send them back. You really think putting all of those people in American jails is a workable solution?

The wall is theoretically supposed to be the solution so that these people don't even make it to our side to be prosecuted. Increased border security could also work to deter attempts. The goal is to limit the amount that make it across and prosecute those who do.

Re: Stephen Miller
« Reply #128 on: June 20, 2018, 01:17:17 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Our policy should have been zero tolerance from the start.
So what's the end game here? Right now, you pretty much sentence everyone to time served and send them back. You really think putting all of those people in American jails is a workable solution?

The wall is theoretically supposed to be the solution so that these people don't even make it to our side to be prosecuted. Increased border security could also work to deter attempts. The goal is to limit the amount that make it across and prosecute those who do.
And practically, there's already a wall in the southwest and that isn't doing much.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: Stephen Miller
« Reply #129 on: June 20, 2018, 02:31:11 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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Just to, once again, avoid saying what's actually on my mind, I'll ask -

Brings up the question of how do you even have rational dialogue about this? I can't hear, 'This is a rule of law issue' or 'We take children away from parents all the time who commit crimes', or honestly anything other than, 'Yes, we need to stop doing this to children, now'.

It's extremely difficult. The ability to blow off or rationalize the suffering of children - not even the garden variety stuff that unfortunately happens constantly, but suffering created by our government wholly by choice - as others have said it's not a difference of opinion but a major difference of values.

It's also not lost on me that no one supporting this seems to know or care how the government could keep track of all these kids, many too young to talk or know any identifying info, and ensure their reunion. Nor that the same people who are totally fine with systematic severing of families by the government at tremendous cost generally believe the same government is too incompetent to run a two car parade and that spending is out of control. It says a lot. An awful lot. Suffice to say I have more respect for the Stephen Millers who can admit this is cruelty for cruelty's sake than those who invent PC euphemisms and comforting rationalizations for what they're standing behind.


Quote
I don't think an action by the united states has left me feeling more angry and ashamed in my lifetime.

Steel yourself, it's going to get worse before it gets better. All that dehumanizing "rapists" "animals" "s-hole countries" "infested" "breeding" language...history tells us what sort of stuff that tends to precede. Most of the right and quite a few independents are moving very rapidly toward the back half of "those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"


Quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vrt7q6QKF5o

Corey Lewandowski....I don't think I've ever wanted to fight a stranger more in my life.

That's Harvard Fellow Corey Lewandowski to you. At least he didn't assault any women this time. But it's as tidy an encapsulation of the utter lack of empathy that underlies support for this as you'll ever see.

Re: Stephen Miller
« Reply #130 on: June 20, 2018, 03:29:19 PM »

Online Fan from VT

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Posted twice to this thread, and it disappeared each time. Can't recover it now. No PMs or anything to indicate it was intentionally removed. Not in my posted message history either.

Re: Stephen Miller
« Reply #131 on: June 20, 2018, 03:37:59 PM »

Offline celticinorlando

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Good to see children will now not be separated from parents....but man...the hard work begins now trying to match kids back to their parents. Really going to be tedious. I do not want to see kids slip through the cracks.
“The rim is looking bigger and bigger every game.”

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Re: Stephen Miller
« Reply #132 on: June 20, 2018, 03:43:52 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Posted twice to this thread, and it disappeared each time. Can't recover it now. No PMs or anything to indicate it was intentionally removed. Not in my posted message history either.
I've found out that  your posts can absolutely get removed without notice of any kind.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: Stephen Miller
« Reply #133 on: June 20, 2018, 03:45:27 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Good to see children will now not be separated from parents....but man...the hard work begins now trying to match kids back to their parents. Really going to be tedious. I do not want to see kids slip through the cracks.
Added Bonus: The immigration cases of adults and families can be expedited. The cases of unaccompanied minors cannot; adults can also be deported without their children.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: Stephen Miller
« Reply #134 on: June 20, 2018, 03:45:35 PM »

Online Fan from VT

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Posted twice to this thread, and it disappeared each time. Can't recover it now. No PMs or anything to indicate it was intentionally removed. Not in my posted message history either.
I've found out that  your posts can absolutely get removed without notice of any kind.

I saw it go through both times, then checking later, its gone. I don't even think there was anything abnormally inflammatory about it. I'd love to get it back.

 

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