Author Topic: Why the Celtics should NOT trade up in this draft!  (Read 5110 times)

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Re: Why the Celtics should NOT trade up in this draft!
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2018, 09:44:16 AM »

Offline TheSundanceKid

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I understand people think this draft is loaded with bigs and we may get a long term replacement for Horford but do any of these guys actually replace Horford?

The answer is no. Horford has a very specific skill set that we build our team around. As this team evolves and Al gets older, our offense will change to focus on the wings.

What we want is a high pick next year or the year after. The issue is we can't see that far ahead and we don't know who will be there. This is the same problem every year but it does not mean panicking and trading up in the draft in front of you.

The best route is to stand pat this year and assess next year's draft, if there is nothing we like we can try to roll the picks to the following year.

To wrap up, most bigs in this draft are not Horford replacements. Better to wait and see.
You are correct that Al is unique.

I would point you to Wendell Carter. He's somewhat more suited to playing the 5 while Al is more suited to playing the 4, but he has the potential to provide a similar skill set. He's shown a rare combination of intelligence, passing, shooting and all around two-way play you would want in an apprentice for Al.

We also don't need exactly the same player as Al going forward. There will be less of a need for Al's playmaking, as we will have 4 other starters and possibly Rozier off the bench) who can now create on their own, whereas just a few months ago that wasn't true. Jaren Jackson is enough of a two way player to make us a better team too. He just as good a shot blocker as Bamba, and a better overall defender. He's also already proved he can shoot. He would make us historically good on defense.

I will check him out. The second bit I've bolded is the bit I want people to focus on. In 3-4 years when Horford is on his way out (an assumption), we likely won't be replacing him with a like for like replacement because his skill set is rare. We also will have evolved our offense, so may not need his skill set anymore.

So what will we need? I don't believe we can answer that. I can answer what we won't need. We will not need 'a counter to Embiid', 'A bruiser in the paint', 'A scoring post presence'. Those 3 things are captured in a guy like Baynes, a mid level exception player, not a future max player. We do not need a max level big man unless they are ELITE That means AD only right now.

Yet we want to give up 2 potential lottery picks to move up for someone now. When we don't know who we will need. In a year or two, having seen the growth from Tatum, Brown, Kyrie, we will have a much clearer idea.

Finally, don't overhype this draft. People do it every year, as the draft approaches "Oh my look at all the future HoFers in this draft!!!" There are 2 players in this draft that will lead a winning team in their careers (Doncic, Bagley) and a 3rd if he stays healthy (Porter). The rest aren't making the cut.

Re: Why the Celtics should NOT trade up in this draft!
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2018, 11:55:51 AM »

Offline Bobshot

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I see no problem with trading up in this draft for a guy like Bamba, who could be a dominant big protecting the rim and also shooting from the outside. They have no answer to Embiid and Ante whatshisname, and have never won anything without a big man up front. They have expendable players and picks to do it.

I saw a credible criticism of Stevens' 7th game coaching on one of the networks that he didn't have Horford drive enough in the 2nd half (as he did in the first half), to score inside points. Especially the last quarter. Instead, he had the usual suspects bombing away 3s that just were not going in. Seems as though he does over rely on the 3. That's fine and well if you have Curry and Durant, but maybe not with the Celtics. Especially without Irving. There are some nights when that dog will not hunt, and you have to have other options. A big guy like Bamba would ensure some diversity. Though the kid seems to have a 3P shot as well in the videos I saw. Plus the capability of blocking them.

Re: Why the Celtics should NOT trade up in this draft!
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2018, 01:02:33 PM »

Offline vjcsmoke

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Bamba looks like a young Mutumbo to me.  But Mutumbo was a limited offensive player.

I'm not sure if Bamba can hit NBA depth 3 pointers.  Can he?

Re: Why the Celtics should NOT trade up in this draft!
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2018, 01:20:59 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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I'd trade up for Ayton even if it costed Brown, Rozier and pick 27.

Bamba (+ a  2nd) I would do Rozier, 27, and Sac pick for.

Getting a "grade A" big man prospect is costly.



Re: Why the Celtics should NOT trade up in this draft!
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2018, 01:29:09 PM »

Offline Sketch5

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Bamba looks like a young Mutumbo to me.  But Mutumbo was a limited offensive player.

I'm not sure if Bamba can hit NBA depth 3 pointers.  Can he?

He could hit the college 3, and has been working on it. Even if he can hit an 20 footer constantly I'd be happy with that. HE's worked with KG and is doing the same "house" training that Tatum did.

With so many Bigs entering over the last few years, we may need to part with one of our wings unfortunately.

Re: Why the Celtics should NOT trade up in this draft!
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2018, 01:34:49 PM »

Offline TheSundanceKid

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I'd trade up for Ayton even if it costed Brown, Rozier and pick 27.

Bamba (+ a  2nd) I would do Rozier, 27, and Sac pick for.

Getting a "grade A" big man prospect is costly.

Even at the cost of the system we run?You think Ayton will ever develop into a player that can guard Ben Simmons, Anthony Davis, Joel Embiid or even someone like Rozier? Because in this NBA teams would feast on mismatches against him.

There ain't no Shaq walking into this draft. Just more athletic versions of Nurkic. Seriously, did anyone see how the Greg Monroe experiment went? This infatuation is becoming unbearable

Re: Why the Celtics should NOT trade up in this draft!
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2018, 01:42:46 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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I'd trade up for Ayton even if it costed Brown, Rozier and pick 27.

Bamba (+ a  2nd) I would do Rozier, 27, and Sac pick for.

Getting a "grade A" big man prospect is costly.

Even at the cost of the system we run?You think Ayton will ever develop into a player that can guard Ben Simmons, Anthony Davis, Joel Embiid or even someone like Rozier? Because in this NBA teams would feast on mismatches against him.

There ain't no Shaq walking into this draft. Just more athletic versions of Nurkic. Seriously, did anyone see how the Greg Monroe experiment went? This infatuation is becoming unbearable
Ayton isn't slow or unathletic he has strength already and for more upside than Embid given his foot work and range at his age. If Baynes can do well in BS system Ayton would explode. Ayton likes the space game which is why he says he wouldn't mind playing PF. He isn't an old school center he just looks imposing and gobbles up rebounds like one.

Re: Why the Celtics should NOT trade up in this draft!
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2018, 02:08:06 PM »

Offline td450

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Bamba looks like a young Mutumbo to me.  But Mutumbo was a limited offensive player.

I'm not sure if Bamba can hit NBA depth 3 pointers.  Can he?

He could hit the college 3, and has been working on it. Even if he can hit an 20 footer constantly I'd be happy with that. HE's worked with KG and is doing the same "house" training that Tatum did.

With so many Bigs entering over the last few years, we may need to part with one of our wings unfortunately.

Bamba has not shown he can shoot. He made 14 of 51 college 3pt shots, which is a Marcus Smart like percentage(27.5%). He has not shown he can punish smaller players on offense. He's a nice player to have as a role player, but he's got to evolve quite a bit to be worthy of a top 7 pick.

The test is simple: Can he make a team pay for covering him with a small ball forward? Because the best teams now play that way a lot. Could Jayson Tatum or Jaylen Brown cover Bamba? I'd say pretty easily, and Bamba would be embarrassed trying to cover them.

Bamba is the least valuable of the top 5 bigs right now.


Re: Why the Celtics should NOT trade up in this draft!
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2018, 03:53:11 PM »

Offline TheSundanceKid

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I'd trade up for Ayton even if it costed Brown, Rozier and pick 27.

Bamba (+ a  2nd) I would do Rozier, 27, and Sac pick for.

Getting a "grade A" big man prospect is costly.

Even at the cost of the system we run?You think Ayton will ever develop into a player that can guard Ben Simmons, Anthony Davis, Joel Embiid or even someone like Rozier? Because in this NBA teams would feast on mismatches against him.

There ain't no Shaq walking into this draft. Just more athletic versions of Nurkic. Seriously, did anyone see how the Greg Monroe experiment went? This infatuation is becoming unbearable
Ayton isn't slow or unathletic he has strength already and for more upside than Embid given his foot work and range at his age. If Baynes can do well in BS system Ayton would explode. Ayton likes the space game which is why he says he wouldn't mind playing PF. He isn't an old school center he just looks imposing and gobbles up rebounds like one.

I'm not calling him slow. I'm asking if he could defend those players. Because as I understand it he does not count that among his strengths. So I'm asking if you are willing to remove our ability to switch in order to play Ayton?

Our strength is our defense, our ability to stop penetration by switching on every screen. It is so important we keep building on that. As great as Ayton may be individually he takes away significantly from our defense. On top of that it was suggested we trade Brown for him?? Madness???!!! So we give up one of our players who can switch in the process, another step back...

Baynes does do well in the system. But he doesn't need the ball, sets screens and takes shots only within the offense. That's a guy you draft at 27, not 2 or 3.

Re: Why the Celtics should NOT trade up in this draft!
« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2018, 04:30:18 PM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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I'd trade up for Ayton even if it costed Brown, Rozier and pick 27.

Bamba (+ a  2nd) I would do Rozier, 27, and Sac pick for.

Getting a "grade A" big man prospect is costly.

Even at the cost of the system we run?You think Ayton will ever develop into a player that can guard Ben Simmons, Anthony Davis, Joel Embiid or even someone like Rozier? Because in this NBA teams would feast on mismatches against him.

There ain't no Shaq walking into this draft. Just more athletic versions of Nurkic. Seriously, did anyone see how the Greg Monroe experiment went? This infatuation is becoming unbearable
Ayton isn't slow or unathletic he has strength already and for more upside than Embid given his foot work and range at his age. If Baynes can do well in BS system Ayton would explode. Ayton likes the space game which is why he says he wouldn't mind playing PF. He isn't an old school center he just looks imposing and gobbles up rebounds like one.
Ayton doesn't have more upside than Embiid.  Embiid is already a dominant 2 way player (2nd team All-NBA, 2nd in DPOY) and he hasn't player 100 NBA games yet.  Embiid still has a lot of room for growth considering how little basketball he's played with the late start and the injuries.  Defensively, Ayton's got a lot of work to do just to be average even though he's played a lot basketball already. 

Re: Why the Celtics should NOT trade up in this draft!
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2018, 04:35:37 PM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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When and how does a draft pick incur a cap hold? Right after he's drafted?

Re: Why the Celtics should NOT trade up in this draft!
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2018, 04:37:42 PM »

Offline saltlover

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When and how does a draft pick incur a cap hold? Right after he's drafted?

July 1st, but yes.

Re: Why the Celtics should NOT trade up in this draft!
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2018, 04:47:33 PM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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When and how does a draft pick incur a cap hold? Right after he's drafted?

July 1st, but yes.

Thanks. So if we trade up and that eats up say, $5m, what does that leave us with under the tax line, to re-sign Smart?

Re: Why the Celtics should NOT trade up in this draft!
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2018, 05:09:34 PM »

Offline td450

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When and how does a draft pick incur a cap hold? Right after he's drafted?

July 1st, but yes.

Thanks. So if we trade up and that eats up say, $5m, what does that leave us with under the tax line, to re-sign Smart?
You could assume a trade would include some salary going out so its hard to say what exactly. I'm someone who thinks we should offer Smart no more than $10M anyway.

Re: Why the Celtics should NOT trade up in this draft!
« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2018, 05:13:52 PM »

Offline playdream

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I have no ideal why people are so high on Ayton, to me he looks like Jahil Oakfor 2.0

Bamba will be perfect for todays NBA, He can cover small and big and can shoot beyond the Arc, good bball iq and unselfish, still very raw but his head is straight.

He is the kind of guy you trade up for