Off season needs: we could use a Backup Wing

[BudweiserCeltic]

What?

We have Hayward, Brown, Tatum, Morris, Semi at the wing. How many wings do you want to carry?

if you consider Morris a big, the only backup wing is semi who has almost no offensive game

Brown, Tatum, Morris, and Hayward are all wings. In any case, they're better wings than any backup we can get on the open market. Smart and Horford can also be wings in carefully curated situations. There's zero need to get a wing next season, pool your resources for a big so that we don't go into the season having 1.5 or so of them.

Tatum brown and Hayward aren't backups. They'll be starters as they were in the preseason

Who are you playing PF? Tatum? Yeah, that won't work out too well.

Tatum played 94 games starting at power forward,  got us the 2nd seed and eastern semi finals. I think it's worked out decently

Tatum played how many games starting at power forward? Revise your statement please.

[Green-18]

What?

We have Hayward, Brown, Tatum, Morris, Semi at the wing. How many wings do you want to carry?

if you consider Morris a big, the only backup wing is semi who has almost no offensive game

Brown, Tatum, Morris, and Hayward are all wings. In any case, they're better wings than any backup we can get on the open market. Smart and Horford can also be wings in carefully curated situations. There's zero need to get a wing next season, pool your resources for a big so that we don't go into the season having 1.5 or so of them.

Tatum brown and Hayward aren't backups. They'll be starters as they were in the preseason

Who are you playing PF? Tatum? Yeah, that won't work out too well.

Yes, I believe Stevens will start Tatum at the PF spot.  Don't forget that this is exactly what he did on opening night before Tatum had ever played a single minute in the NBA.  Tatum was also featured at the 4 in our three most common 4th quarter lineups this season.  We will dictate the terms for other teams until they force us to adjust.  Tatum starting at the 4 spot next to Horford is certainly no crazier than Kevin Love at the 5 in Lue's offense.  There's plenty of defensive versatility for Brad to work with.

[A Future of Stevens]

What?

We have Hayward, Brown, Tatum, Morris, Semi at the wing. How many wings do you want to carry?

if you consider Morris a big, the only backup wing is semi who has almost no offensive game

Brown, Tatum, Morris, and Hayward are all wings. In any case, they're better wings than any backup we can get on the open market. Smart and Horford can also be wings in carefully curated situations. There's zero need to get a wing next season, pool your resources for a big so that we don't go into the season having 1.5 or so of them.

Tatum brown and Hayward aren't backups. They'll be starters as they were in the preseason

Who are you playing PF? Tatum? Yeah, that won't work out too well.

Tatum played 94 games starting at power forward,  got us the 2nd seed and eastern semi finals. I think it's worked out decently

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/tatumja01/lineups/2018

Our most common lineup where Tatum played was with Horford/Baynes in the lineup. That means he has played at the 3 primarily. The 3rd most common lineup had Morris and Horford. I guess you could make the argument that Tatum did play the 4. Our 2nd most common lineup had Tatum at the 4. It looks like it was only a decent lineup, not great.

I am playing devil's advocate, as I think Tatum at the 4 is a great long term idea. He just needs to add a little mass.

[BudweiserCeltic]

What?

We have Hayward, Brown, Tatum, Morris, Semi at the wing. How many wings do you want to carry?

if you consider Morris a big, the only backup wing is semi who has almost no offensive game

Brown, Tatum, Morris, and Hayward are all wings. In any case, they're better wings than any backup we can get on the open market. Smart and Horford can also be wings in carefully curated situations. There's zero need to get a wing next season, pool your resources for a big so that we don't go into the season having 1.5 or so of them.

Tatum brown and Hayward aren't backups. They'll be starters as they were in the preseason

Who are you playing PF? Tatum? Yeah, that won't work out too well.

Tatum played 94 games starting at power forward,  got us the 2nd seed and eastern semi finals. I think it's worked out decently

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/tatumja01/lineups/2018

Our most common lineup where Tatum played was with Horford/Baynes in the lineup. That means he has played at the 3 primarily. The next 2 most common lineups had Horford/Morris, but I guess you could make an argument that Tatum played the 4 in that lineup.

And it would be a terrible argument.

[A Future of Stevens]

What?

We have Hayward, Brown, Tatum, Morris, Semi at the wing. How many wings do you want to carry?

if you consider Morris a big, the only backup wing is semi who has almost no offensive game

Brown, Tatum, Morris, and Hayward are all wings. In any case, they're better wings than any backup we can get on the open market. Smart and Horford can also be wings in carefully curated situations. There's zero need to get a wing next season, pool your resources for a big so that we don't go into the season having 1.5 or so of them.

Tatum brown and Hayward aren't backups. They'll be starters as they were in the preseason

Who are you playing PF? Tatum? Yeah, that won't work out too well.

Tatum played 94 games starting at power forward,  got us the 2nd seed and eastern semi finals. I think it's worked out decently

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/tatumja01/lineups/2018

Our most common lineup where Tatum played was with Horford/Baynes in the lineup. That means he has played at the 3 primarily. The next 2 most common lineups had Horford/Morris, but I guess you could make an argument that Tatum played the 4 in that lineup.

And it would be a terrible argument.

Sorry, I edited my original post to reflect a mistake I made when looking at the lineups. Our second most common 5 man rotation actually did feature Tatum at the 4. I am in the camp that thinks it is a good long term idea, but I think he will struggle a bit until he adds some lean mass.

[Vermont Green]

Tatum played 94 games starting at power forward,  got us the 2nd seed and eastern semi finals. I think it's worked out decently

Huh?  According to 82games, he played 4x minutes as SG or SF over PF.  As far as starting games, Horford started 72, Baynes 67, Morris 21.  That is 160 of the 164 available starts for bigs.  Not sure how Tatum started 94 games at PF (even if you count preseason which I did not).  I know you are not alone in thinking that Tatum at PF is the way to go but I am not in that camp.  It makes no sense to me based on what I see in his game.

[BudweiserCeltic]

What?

We have Hayward, Brown, Tatum, Morris, Semi at the wing. How many wings do you want to carry?

if you consider Morris a big, the only backup wing is semi who has almost no offensive game

Brown, Tatum, Morris, and Hayward are all wings. In any case, they're better wings than any backup we can get on the open market. Smart and Horford can also be wings in carefully curated situations. There's zero need to get a wing next season, pool your resources for a big so that we don't go into the season having 1.5 or so of them.

Tatum brown and Hayward aren't backups. They'll be starters as they were in the preseason

Who are you playing PF? Tatum? Yeah, that won't work out too well.

Yes, I believe Stevens will start Tatum at the PF spot.  Don't forget that this is exactly what he did on opening night before Tatum had ever played a single minute in the NBA.  Tatum was also featured at the 4 in our three most common 4th quarter lineups this season.  We will dictate the terms for other teams until they force us to adjust.  Tatum starting at the 4 spot next to Horford is certainly no crazier than Kevin Love at the 5 in Lue's offense.  There's plenty of defensive versatility for Brad to work with.

He also used Tatum on the 2nd game when he started Smart. That didn't last long, and we went big pretty much the rest of the way.

He's still too thin, we'll get killed on the glass. Who knows, it may end up working, but I don't see it as a season long feature. He has to bulk up considerably.

[BudweiserCeltic]

What?

We have Hayward, Brown, Tatum, Morris, Semi at the wing. How many wings do you want to carry?

if you consider Morris a big, the only backup wing is semi who has almost no offensive game

Brown, Tatum, Morris, and Hayward are all wings. In any case, they're better wings than any backup we can get on the open market. Smart and Horford can also be wings in carefully curated situations. There's zero need to get a wing next season, pool your resources for a big so that we don't go into the season having 1.5 or so of them.

Tatum brown and Hayward aren't backups. They'll be starters as they were in the preseason

Who are you playing PF? Tatum? Yeah, that won't work out too well.

Tatum played 94 games starting at power forward,  got us the 2nd seed and eastern semi finals. I think it's worked out decently

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/tatumja01/lineups/2018

Our most common lineup where Tatum played was with Horford/Baynes in the lineup. That means he has played at the 3 primarily. The next 2 most common lineups had Horford/Morris, but I guess you could make an argument that Tatum played the 4 in that lineup.

And it would be a terrible argument.

Sorry, I edited my original post to reflect a mistake I made when looking at the lineups. Our second most common 5 man rotation actually did feature Tatum at the 4. I am in the camp that thinks it is a good long term idea, but I think he will struggle a bit until he adds some lean mass.

I have no problem with Tatum at the 4 when it's convenient for us (which can happen often). I do have a problem with him being a starter at the 4.

Also, I would reckon that part of the reason of why he played the 4 that often was because of injuries to Theis and Morris.

[Green-18]

There's really no point in arguing semantics over whether or not Tatum is playing the 3 or 4 spot in certain lineups.  Brad Stevens talks about position-less basketball for a reason.  The combination of length and athleticism to switch as necessary are absolutely crucial to our defense.  Al Horford as an anchor makes the entire system work.  Tatum will be required to handle the defensive responsibilities dealing with opposing 4's during crunch time. 

Maybe Brad decides to start Baynes in order to establish our defensive identity.  Just keep in mind that Baynes doesn't close games.  Our 3 most common 4th quarter lineups are listed below:

1. Irving, Smart, Brown, Tatum, Horford
2. Irving, Rozier, Smart, Tatum, Horford
3. Irving, Rozier, Brown, Tatum, Horford

[Monkhouse]

Tatum played 94 games starting at power forward,  got us the 2nd seed and eastern semi finals. I think it's worked out decently

Huh?  According to 82games, he played 4x minutes as SG or SF over PF.  As far as starting games, Horford started 72, Baynes 67, Morris 21.  That is 160 of the 164 available starts for bigs.  Not sure how Tatum started 94 games at PF (even if you count preseason which I did not).  I know you are not alone in thinking that Tatum at PF is the way to go but I am not in that camp.  It makes no sense to me based on what I see in his game.

Tatum would destroy half of the 4's in the league today with his dribble drives. Defending them? Now that's another issue.

[BudweiserCeltic]

There's really no point in arguing semantics over whether or not Tatum is playing the 3 or 4 spot in certain lineups.  Brad Stevens talks about position-less basketball for a reason.  The combination of length and athleticism to switch as necessary are absolutely crucial to our defense.  Al Horford as an anchor makes the entire system work.  Tatum will be required to handle the defensive responsibilities dealing with opposing 4's during crunch time. 

Maybe Brad decides to start Baynes in order to establish our defensive identity.  Just keep in mind that Baynes doesn't close games.  Our 3 most common 4th quarter lineups are listed below:

1. Irving, Smart, Brown, Tatum, Horford
2. Irving, Rozier, Smart, Tatum, Horford
3. Irving, Rozier, Brown, Tatum, Horford

It's important to talk semantics because the topic of this thread is about the need for a back-up wing. So what that entails is figuring out who starts the game. Stevens can talk all he wants on how he envisions positions, but in the end PF and SF have different defensive responsibilities, even if in the end they do multiple switches.

Starting the game and finishing it are usually 2 different monsters, and usually teams have more offensive (shooting) oriented line-ups during that time, so Tatum fits better on match-ups then. Remember when we went small with Posey at the 4 to finish games? Some of us kinda hated it, though it at times worked quite well.

And as you say, assuming Baynes is still around, and gets the nod to start (which I assume would probably be the case), Tatum would be coming off the bench. So, once again the idea that we need a back-up wing is debunked.

[Green-18]

There's really no point in arguing semantics over whether or not Tatum is playing the 3 or 4 spot in certain lineups.  Brad Stevens talks about position-less basketball for a reason.  The combination of length and athleticism to switch as necessary are absolutely crucial to our defense.  Al Horford as an anchor makes the entire system work.  Tatum will be required to handle the defensive responsibilities dealing with opposing 4's during crunch time. 

Maybe Brad decides to start Baynes in order to establish our defensive identity.  Just keep in mind that Baynes doesn't close games.  Our 3 most common 4th quarter lineups are listed below:

1. Irving, Smart, Brown, Tatum, Horford
2. Irving, Rozier, Smart, Tatum, Horford
3. Irving, Rozier, Brown, Tatum, Horford

It's important to talk semantics because the topic of this thread is about the need for a back-up wing. So what that entails is figuring out who starts the game. Stevens can talk all he wants on how he envisions positions, but in the end PF and SF have different defensive responsibilities, even if in the end they do multiple switches.

Starting the game and finishing it are usually 2 different monsters, and usually teams have more offensive (shooting) oriented line-ups during that time, so Tatum fits better on match-ups then. Remember when we went small with Posey at the 4 to finish games? Some of us kinda hated it, though it at times worked quite well.

And as you say, assuming Baynes is still around, and gets the nod to start (which I assume would probably be the case), Tatum would be coming off the bench. So, once again the idea that we need a back-up wing is debunked.

I was referring to semantics in regard to whether or not Tatum was a 3 or 4 in certain lineups.  At the end of the day Brad will require Tatum to handle the responsibilities of guarding opposing 4's in many of our lineups. 

I don't think the starting lineup matters either way when it comes to wing depth.  As I mentioned in my first post, Brad has an endless number of rotations he can use if we run it back with the same group.  The actual distribution of minutes wont be a concern.

[Fafnir]

Before Morris was healthy I remember Brad using Brown to guard opposing 4s instead of Tatum. Opted to have Tatum guard the 3. I can't remember if they shifted doing that as the season went on as most games we just started Baynes except in a few cases where they matched up with Morris at the 4.

In any case I don't think the C's are in need of more wings given they don't mind Marcus/Horford guarding many wings and we have 5 under contract for next year. They might sign an additional one but it'd be a draft pick or low dollar signing if anything.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

Your starting power forwards in 2018.

Celtics - Horford
Nets - RHJ
Knicks - Zinger
Sixers - Saric
Raptors - Ibaka
Bulls - Markannen
Cavs - Green
Pistons - Griffin/Harris/Tolliver
Pacers - Young
Bucks - Giannis
Hawks - Illyasova/Collins
Hornets - Williams
Heat - Johnson
Magic - Gordon
Wizards - Morris
Warriors - Green
Clippers - Griffin/Harris
Lakers - Randle
Suns - Chriss/Bender
Kings - Randolph
Mavs - Dirk
Rockets - Anderson
Grizzles - Green
Pelicans - Davis
Spurs - Aldridge
Nuggets - Milsap
Wolves - Gibson
Thunder - Anthony/Grant
Blazers - Aminu
Jazz - Favors

Of those, only Zinger, Griffin, Giannis, Randle, Randolph, Davis, Aldridge, Milsap, Gibson, and Favors are players that Tatum cannot handle defensively one-on-one. Everyone else is either in his same weight class or not skilled enough to take advantage of Tatum.

Of the ones I just listed, only Zinger, Griffin, Giannis, Davis, Aldridge, and Milsap have the ability to turn the game based on that matchup.

In other words, Tatum can win the matchup with at least 2/3rds of the league at PF. The Cs would have to gameplan for the other 1/3, including doubling the post and playing big with Baynes.

The whole "power forward" thing is more in the mind.

[Green-18]

Your starting power forwards in 2018.

Celtics - Horford
Nets - RHJ
Knicks - Zinger
Sixers - Saric
Raptors - Ibaka
Bulls - Markannen
Cavs - Green
Pistons - Griffin/Harris/Tolliver
Pacers - Young
Bucks - Giannis
Hawks - Illyasova/Collins
Hornets - Williams
Heat - Johnson
Magic - Gordon
Wizards - Morris
Warriors - Green
Clippers - Griffin/Harris
Lakers - Randle
Suns - Chriss/Bender
Kings - Randolph
Mavs - Dirk
Rockets - Anderson
Grizzles - Green
Pelicans - Davis
Spurs - Aldridge
Nuggets - Milsap
Wolves - Gibson
Thunder - Anthony/Grant
Blazers - Aminu
Jazz - Favors

Of those, only Zinger, Griffin, Giannis, Randle, Randolph, Davis, Aldridge, Milsap, Gibson, and Favors are players that Tatum cannot handle defensively one-on-one. Everyone else is either in his same weight class or not skilled enough to take advantage of Tatum.

Of the ones I just listed, only Zinger, Griffin, Giannis, Davis, Aldridge, and Milsap have the ability to turn the game based on that matchup.

In other words, Tatum can win the matchup with at least 2/3rds of the league at PF. The Cs would have to gameplan for the other 1/3, including doubling the post and playing big with Baynes.

The whole "power forward" thing is more in the mind.

TP for taking the time to do that!  I was going to take a look at this later.