Author Topic: Michael Cohen pleads guilty. Implicates a "candidate" for federal office(Trump)  (Read 21689 times)

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Offline fairweatherfan

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Roger Stone has decided to invoke his 5th Amendment rights and not turn over documents or give testimony to the Senate Judiciary Committee. It would make sense if he is doing that with the Senate he will do the same thing with the Special Counsel's investigation.
Do innocent people usually invoke the 5th? You decide.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.politico.com/amp/story/2018/12/04/roger-stone-fifth-amendment-1044597

I know Trump and a million other people and probably Stone are huge hypocrites about it, but I'm uncomfortable with pleading the 5th being a presumption of guilt. There are valid reasons to do it that don't involve being guilty of something. That said, haha yeah Stone is guilty as hell  and dodging the real "perjury trap" which is to commit perjury or admit to a crime.


BTW, Netflix has a documentary called "Get Me Roger Stone" which would probably be an interesting watch nowadays.

Offline fairweatherfan

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Cohen sentenced to 3 years in prison and about $2 million in forfeitures, restitution and fines.  Seems about what legal experts predicted he'd get.  Now let's see if Trump ever faces any consequences for the felonies he directed Cohen to commit.

Offline Vermont Green

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The campaign finance felonies that Trump appears to have directed Cohen to carry out (and lied about over and over, including likely in his written statements to Mueller) are probably going to be small potatoes for Trump once everything is out.  Don't get me wrong, these are felonies as I understand it even aside from Obstruction and Perjury associated with the felonies but I predict that there is much more to come.

Dems should stick to the "we will wait for the full report" narrative.  No sense in getting overly excited about this.  This is a really bad final result for Cohen but just the beginning for Trump.

Offline heyvik

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The campaign finance felonies that Trump appears to have directed Cohen to carry out (and lied about over and over, including likely in his written statements to Mueller) are probably going to be small potatoes for Trump once everything is out.  Don't get me wrong, these are felonies as I understand it even aside from Obstruction and Perjury associated with the felonies but I predict that there is much more to come.

Dems should stick to the "we will wait for the full report" narrative.  No sense in getting overly excited about this.  This is a really bad final result for Cohen but just the beginning for Trump.

beginning of the END for Trump.

Offline fairweatherfan

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They announced the Enquirer's parent company wouldn't be prosecuted for their role in one of the felonies through an agreement with prosecutors.



The last 2 sentences of that first paragraph are VERY ominous for Trump. It means every other party involved in paying the Karen McDougal hush money - Cohen and AMI - agrees that the money was spent in coordination with the campaign to influence the election.


The campaign finance felonies that Trump appears to have directed Cohen to carry out (and lied about over and over, including likely in his written statements to Mueller) are probably going to be small potatoes for Trump once everything is out.  Don't get me wrong, these are felonies as I understand it even aside from Obstruction and Perjury associated with the felonies but I predict that there is much more to come.

Dems should stick to the "we will wait for the full report" narrative.  No sense in getting overly excited about this.  This is a really bad final result for Cohen but just the beginning for Trump.

I understand this mentality but Trump is already well beyond what brought down Nixon. He's directly implicated by his own lawyer and corroborating evidence in ordering the commission of two felonies. Not just in theory or red-faced media rants but in DoJ court filings.  And that's setting aside the walls closing in on the Mueller investigation, other major fraud investigations of his company and "charity", etc. There should already be enough to open impeachment proceedings tomorrow.

That said I get the desire to get everything on the table, especially on the much more severe Mueller front, before taking that step. But a compromised, likely criminal President is an ongoing national crisis and we're not really supposed to twiddle our thumbs at those.

Offline nickagneta

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I understand this mentality but Trump is already well beyond what brought down Nixon. He's directly implicated by his own lawyer and corroborating evidence in ordering the commission of two felonies. Not just in theory or red-faced media rants but in DoJ court filings.  And that's setting aside the walls closing in on the Mueller investigation, other major fraud investigations of his company and "charity", etc. There should already be enough to open impeachment proceedings tomorrow.

That said I get the desire to get everything on the table, especially on the much more severe Mueller front, before taking that step. But a compromised, likely criminal President is an ongoing national crisis and we're not really supposed to twiddle our thumbs at those.
The problem with starting impeachment proceedings now, as I am sure you know, is due to the partisan environment, the House would impeach him but the Senate would never find him guilty or pressure him to resign or be found guilty.

I think the Mueller investigation is going to need to be finished and show just how dirty he is before the Senate would have enough votes to impeach.

Offline Vermont Green

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"In concert with the candidate's campaign," is how it is worded,  Will Trump just continue to say he know nothing about it?  Does Cohen have tapes of Trump discussing it?  It seems that I remember that something was released a while back.  I guess the most recent version of Trump's story is that it is just a private transaction, nothing to do with the campaign.

There is no way this isn't a felony by Trump, right?  Actually at least 2 felonies.  He probably obstructed justice and also there is always the perjury thing.  Maybe he just didn't answer those questions when he provided written answers to Mueller.

Offline kraidstar

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I understand this mentality but Trump is already well beyond what brought down Nixon. He's directly implicated by his own lawyer and corroborating evidence in ordering the commission of two felonies. Not just in theory or red-faced media rants but in DoJ court filings.  And that's setting aside the walls closing in on the Mueller investigation, other major fraud investigations of his company and "charity", etc. There should already be enough to open impeachment proceedings tomorrow.

That said I get the desire to get everything on the table, especially on the much more severe Mueller front, before taking that step. But a compromised, likely criminal President is an ongoing national crisis and we're not really supposed to twiddle our thumbs at those.
The problem with starting impeachment proceedings now, as I am sure you know, is due to the partisan environment, the House would impeach him but the Senate would never find him guilty or pressure him to resign or be found guilty.

I think the Mueller investigation is going to need to be finished and show just how dirty he is before the Senate would have enough votes to impeach.

Yeah, a lot of Senators would refuse to convict, even if the crimes were proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

You might say that a good chunk of the GOP is committed to obstructing justice themselves.

Offline slamtheking

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I understand this mentality but Trump is already well beyond what brought down Nixon. He's directly implicated by his own lawyer and corroborating evidence in ordering the commission of two felonies. Not just in theory or red-faced media rants but in DoJ court filings.  And that's setting aside the walls closing in on the Mueller investigation, other major fraud investigations of his company and "charity", etc. There should already be enough to open impeachment proceedings tomorrow.

That said I get the desire to get everything on the table, especially on the much more severe Mueller front, before taking that step. But a compromised, likely criminal President is an ongoing national crisis and we're not really supposed to twiddle our thumbs at those.
The problem with starting impeachment proceedings now, as I am sure you know, is due to the partisan environment, the House would impeach him but the Senate would never find him guilty or pressure him to resign or be found guilty.

I think the Mueller investigation is going to need to be finished and show just how dirty he is before the Senate would have enough votes to impeach.
at this point, I seriously believe Trump could get away with his remark of being able to shoot someone and get away with it because I'm now 100% convinced the Republicans in congress lack any moral backbone needed (which isn't very much) to impeach this piece of filth.  Trump will serve out his first term and it would not surprise me to see his supporters put him right back in for a second term. 

I think the only hope to get rid of him is that the Dems put up someone with some charisma that can think on their feet in a debate to call Trump out on his crap.  Not only that, but the Dems better have learned from Trump's victory it's about getting the most electoral votes, not popular vote so they better campaign hard in those purple states (unlike Hillary).

Offline hpantazo

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I understand this mentality but Trump is already well beyond what brought down Nixon. He's directly implicated by his own lawyer and corroborating evidence in ordering the commission of two felonies. Not just in theory or red-faced media rants but in DoJ court filings.  And that's setting aside the walls closing in on the Mueller investigation, other major fraud investigations of his company and "charity", etc. There should already be enough to open impeachment proceedings tomorrow.

That said I get the desire to get everything on the table, especially on the much more severe Mueller front, before taking that step. But a compromised, likely criminal President is an ongoing national crisis and we're not really supposed to twiddle our thumbs at those.
The problem with starting impeachment proceedings now, as I am sure you know, is due to the partisan environment, the House would impeach him but the Senate would never find him guilty or pressure him to resign or be found guilty.

I think the Mueller investigation is going to need to be finished and show just how dirty he is before the Senate would have enough votes to impeach.
at this point, I seriously believe Trump could get away with his remark of being able to shoot someone and get away with it because I'm now 100% convinced the Republicans in congress lack any moral backbone needed (which isn't very much) to impeach this piece of filth.  Trump will serve out his first term and it would not surprise me to see his supporters put him right back in for a second term. 

I think the only hope to get rid of him is that the Dems put up someone with some charisma that can think on their feet in a debate to call Trump out on his crap.  Not only that, but the Dems better have learned from Trump's victory it's about getting the most electoral votes, not popular vote so they better campaign hard in those purple states (unlike Hillary).


I agree, but long term, I don't see the drawback for Republican senators in impeaching Trump. They would gain broad credibility with the general public, and Pence would take over, who they can fully back and who would carry out all the policies they still want to accomplish. It's not like if they impeach Trump the Democrats win or something, the president would still be a hard line Republican, just someone without criminal ties who can be more easily backed by his party. The hardcore Trump base would also double down on supporting Pence and the Republican party if Trump gets impeached.

They are really hurting the future of their party to continue to back an incompetent president with clear criminal activities.

Offline fairweatherfan

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"In concert with the candidate's campaign," is how it is worded,  Will Trump just continue to say he know nothing about it?  Does Cohen have tapes of Trump discussing it?  It seems that I remember that something was released a while back.  I guess the most recent version of Trump's story is that it is just a private transaction, nothing to do with the campaign.


Worth noting that the details/dates of when Enquirer head David Pecker met with Cohen and "at least one other member of the campaign" to discuss trapping damaging stories for him correspond perfectly with a WSJ story from several months ago about Pecker meeting with Cohen and Trump. And Cohen has recordings of Trump talking about the payments - he released a partial one several months back.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/donald-trump-played-central-role-in-hush-payoffs-to-stormy-daniels-and-karen-mcdougal-1541786601

Quote
There is no way this isn't a felony by Trump, right?  Actually at least 2 felonies.  He probably obstructed justice and also there is always the perjury thing.  Maybe he just didn't answer those questions when he provided written answers to Mueller.

If it went down like that, pretty much. Especially if Weisselberg at Trump Org gave them similar info - reportedly Trump of course did not pay out of pocket but laundered it through his business. I think it's technically 2 counts of the same felony, and that's not looking at obstruction or perjury. Maybe the fairest way to say it is he would have very few defenses against the charge, depending on what other evidence is out there. The new "oh these were uhh actually totally private payoffs that had nothing to do with the campaign" tack is pretty much an admission of how few legal outs he has.

Offline Moranis

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I understand this mentality but Trump is already well beyond what brought down Nixon. He's directly implicated by his own lawyer and corroborating evidence in ordering the commission of two felonies. Not just in theory or red-faced media rants but in DoJ court filings.  And that's setting aside the walls closing in on the Mueller investigation, other major fraud investigations of his company and "charity", etc. There should already be enough to open impeachment proceedings tomorrow.

That said I get the desire to get everything on the table, especially on the much more severe Mueller front, before taking that step. But a compromised, likely criminal President is an ongoing national crisis and we're not really supposed to twiddle our thumbs at those.
The problem with starting impeachment proceedings now, as I am sure you know, is due to the partisan environment, the House would impeach him but the Senate would never find him guilty or pressure him to resign or be found guilty.

I think the Mueller investigation is going to need to be finished and show just how dirty he is before the Senate would have enough votes to impeach.
at this point, I seriously believe Trump could get away with his remark of being able to shoot someone and get away with it because I'm now 100% convinced the Republicans in congress lack any moral backbone needed (which isn't very much) to impeach this piece of filth.  Trump will serve out his first term and it would not surprise me to see his supporters put him right back in for a second term. 

I think the only hope to get rid of him is that the Dems put up someone with some charisma that can think on their feet in a debate to call Trump out on his crap.  Not only that, but the Dems better have learned from Trump's victory it's about getting the most electoral votes, not popular vote so they better campaign hard in those purple states (unlike Hillary).


I agree, but long term, I don't see the drawback for Republican senators in impeaching Trump. They would gain broad credibility with the general public, and Pence would take over, who they can fully back and who would carry out all the policies they still want to accomplish. It's not like if they impeach Trump the Democrats win or something, the president would still be a hard line Republican, just someone without criminal ties who can be more easily backed by his party. The hardcore Trump base would also double down on supporting Pence and the Republican party if Trump gets impeached.

They are really hurting the future of their party to continue to back an incompetent president with clear criminal activities.
except Pence has almost no chance of winning a general election, while sadly Trump actually could.  If they impeach Trump, it will be after he is re-elected (if he is of course).
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Offline slamtheking

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I understand this mentality but Trump is already well beyond what brought down Nixon. He's directly implicated by his own lawyer and corroborating evidence in ordering the commission of two felonies. Not just in theory or red-faced media rants but in DoJ court filings.  And that's setting aside the walls closing in on the Mueller investigation, other major fraud investigations of his company and "charity", etc. There should already be enough to open impeachment proceedings tomorrow.

That said I get the desire to get everything on the table, especially on the much more severe Mueller front, before taking that step. But a compromised, likely criminal President is an ongoing national crisis and we're not really supposed to twiddle our thumbs at those.
The problem with starting impeachment proceedings now, as I am sure you know, is due to the partisan environment, the House would impeach him but the Senate would never find him guilty or pressure him to resign or be found guilty.

I think the Mueller investigation is going to need to be finished and show just how dirty he is before the Senate would have enough votes to impeach.
at this point, I seriously believe Trump could get away with his remark of being able to shoot someone and get away with it because I'm now 100% convinced the Republicans in congress lack any moral backbone needed (which isn't very much) to impeach this piece of filth.  Trump will serve out his first term and it would not surprise me to see his supporters put him right back in for a second term. 

I think the only hope to get rid of him is that the Dems put up someone with some charisma that can think on their feet in a debate to call Trump out on his crap.  Not only that, but the Dems better have learned from Trump's victory it's about getting the most electoral votes, not popular vote so they better campaign hard in those purple states (unlike Hillary).


I agree, but long term, I don't see the drawback for Republican senators in impeaching Trump. They would gain broad credibility with the general public, and Pence would take over, who they can fully back and who would carry out all the policies they still want to accomplish. It's not like if they impeach Trump the Democrats win or something, the president would still be a hard line Republican, just someone without criminal ties who can be more easily backed by his party. The hardcore Trump base would also double down on supporting Pence and the Republican party if Trump gets impeached.

They are really hurting the future of their party to continue to back an incompetent president with clear criminal activities.
I would think the same thing too except for what Trump's base would do.  I think the Reps in Congress are figuring those people wouldn't support Pence and see it as taking away their 'golden (shower) boy'.  Considering that they'd be far better off as a party, and governing party at that, having Pence in charge who seems to be weird choir boy in comparison to Trump.  Politically, the Reps would probably hum along like a smooth engine (for better or worse).

Offline slamtheking

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I understand this mentality but Trump is already well beyond what brought down Nixon. He's directly implicated by his own lawyer and corroborating evidence in ordering the commission of two felonies. Not just in theory or red-faced media rants but in DoJ court filings.  And that's setting aside the walls closing in on the Mueller investigation, other major fraud investigations of his company and "charity", etc. There should already be enough to open impeachment proceedings tomorrow.

That said I get the desire to get everything on the table, especially on the much more severe Mueller front, before taking that step. But a compromised, likely criminal President is an ongoing national crisis and we're not really supposed to twiddle our thumbs at those.
The problem with starting impeachment proceedings now, as I am sure you know, is due to the partisan environment, the House would impeach him but the Senate would never find him guilty or pressure him to resign or be found guilty.

I think the Mueller investigation is going to need to be finished and show just how dirty he is before the Senate would have enough votes to impeach.
at this point, I seriously believe Trump could get away with his remark of being able to shoot someone and get away with it because I'm now 100% convinced the Republicans in congress lack any moral backbone needed (which isn't very much) to impeach this piece of filth.  Trump will serve out his first term and it would not surprise me to see his supporters put him right back in for a second term. 

I think the only hope to get rid of him is that the Dems put up someone with some charisma that can think on their feet in a debate to call Trump out on his crap.  Not only that, but the Dems better have learned from Trump's victory it's about getting the most electoral votes, not popular vote so they better campaign hard in those purple states (unlike Hillary).


I agree, but long term, I don't see the drawback for Republican senators in impeaching Trump. They would gain broad credibility with the general public, and Pence would take over, who they can fully back and who would carry out all the policies they still want to accomplish. It's not like if they impeach Trump the Democrats win or something, the president would still be a hard line Republican, just someone without criminal ties who can be more easily backed by his party. The hardcore Trump base would also double down on supporting Pence and the Republican party if Trump gets impeached.

They are really hurting the future of their party to continue to back an incompetent president with clear criminal activities.
except Pence has almost no chance of winning a general election, while sadly Trump actually could.  If they impeach Trump, it will be after he is re-elected (if he is of course).
on that note, I do agree that in terms of electability, Trump surpasses Pence because Pence is just way too out there for any on the left and most in the middle

Offline nickagneta

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Former judge and Fox legal analyst, Andrew Napolitano, said on Fox that Trump committed felony and they have proof.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjLidH7_Z3fAhVOh-AKHSmlA9oQzPwBegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fthehill.com%2Fhomenews%2Fadministration%2F421083-foxs-napolitano-we-learned-today-that-prosecutors-have-evidence-trump&psig=AOvVaw1wJFvwmXuiMjGeiU7DsJFi&ust=1544830971529106

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"Career prosecutors here in New York have evidence that the president of the United States committed a felony by ordering and paying Michael Cohen to break the law," Napolitano said while speaking on Fox News. "How do we know that? They told that to the federal judge. Under the rules, they can't tell that to the federal judge unless they actually have that hardcore evidence. Under the rules, they can't tell that to the federal judge unless they intend to do something with that evidence."

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"The felony is paying Michael Cohen to commit a felony. It's pretty basic," Napolitano said. "You pay someone to commit a crime, they commit the crime. You are liable, criminally liable for the commission of that crime. That's what the prosecutors told the federal judge."

So Trump's lawyer admits to committing the crime and AMI admits they committed the crime and Trump admitted he paid Cohen to do it but assumed Cohen would do it legally.

Even Republican supporters(Napolitano) are saying on Republican supporting Fox News that Trump committed a felony. Our President is in big trouble.