Author Topic: Trumpís Economy (merged)  (Read 33930 times)

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Re: Trumpís Economy (merged)
« Reply #540 on: October 04, 2018, 02:15:06 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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Low skill manufacturing is not coming back to the US. The US needs to focus on protecting new industries, many of which rely on intellectual property.
This, TP.  The "bring back jobs" people haven't thought this through.  Who is gonna pick your lettuce?  Who is gonna assemble iPhones for 20 cents an hour?

Your local farmer down the street should be picking your lettuce. Or grow it and pick it yourself.   The last thing you should be doing is supporting big agricultural companies that feed you poison.
The problem with this is so many Americans live in large metropolitan cities where there just is no local farmer products or places to grow your own food.

Some of the best farmers markets I've ever been to have been in big cities, both in America and abroad.

But the eating habits of Americans are some of the worst in the world, so I don't expect anything to change.

CSA is the way to play.

Hey, at least there's one thing we can agree on.

I signed up for a crop share a few years ago after being re-acquanited with an old HS friend who it turns out managed the farm at the time (she since moved onto start her own florist business). It has been one of the best decisions I ever made. The cool part of the CSA I belong to is they actually let you pick your own veggies if you want (they also have pre-boxed fruits / veggies for those who don't have the time), and you can earn extra shares if you volunteer your time to help in the fields or milking the cows.

I do still like to go to the farmers markets though. If for nothing else than I like to support as many local farmers as I can.

Re: Trumpís Economy (merged)
« Reply #541 on: October 04, 2018, 02:29:14 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Sometimes the simplest, most obvious answer is actually the right one.  Not everything has to be as complicated as rocket appliances.

If I make widgets here in the US, and due to government regulations, it costs me $2.00 to make a widget, and you make widgets in a foreign country, and due to a lower standard of regulations you are able to make the same widget for $0.25, that creates an unfair 'playing field' which leaves me at a distinct disadvantage.  I can't compete, Americans lose jobs, and I go out of business (or more likely am forced to outsource my labor).

Continuing to allow this imbalance is going to destroy this country.  People need to wake up before it's too late.  A nation that buys the majority of it's goods from foreign manufacturers is destined to fail, eventually.  The idea behind international trade, since the beginning of time, was never supposed to be about who can 'make it the cheapest', it was supposed to be about nations trading commodities they have in surplus to other nations that lack said commodities, and in exchange trade commodities they have in surplus for commodities you lack.

If we really want to move to a completely open, fair, and free global marketplace, the only way for that to work is if all nations play by the same rules.

I agree re: simple explanations in principle, but we also know that labor costs are only one input. Would we demand $15/hr right now in China? American consumers would be crushed overnight.

On one hand, yes, fair is fair. But from an economic standpoint a level playing field is going to hurt the leaders the most... i.e us. If we want to be equal with China and Mexico for moral or environmental reasons, then by all means. Right now we have our cake and eat it to: we get to have regulations here that make people safer/ healthier/ wealthier, but get most things cheap from other countries. We can't just tip the scales the other way to create jobs, and expect to retain the advantages we had in the first place. They are linked.

The answer IMO, if the US wants to remain the wealthiest nation on earth, is not to compete for low wage jobs with poorer countries. Economically speaking, we should *let them do it* and focus entirely on domestic jobs that are higher value per capita. That's how a country stays rich.

Quote
What is the average minimum wage of auto workers in America?  I'm guessing this played a direct role in that $16/hr figure.

TP, I think you're right on the $16 figure.

1. Yes, if the US immediately demanded all good made in China sold in the US had to be manufactured by workers making $15/hr there would be a lot of short term pain to US consumers. Long term it would actually be beneficial, as it would create a market for those goods to just be made here in America, but my guess is the short term pain would break too many people to make it realistic to do something like that without 'phasing it in'.

2. Being able to buy thing cheaply, when those cheap goods are made in foreign countries is not a good thing. It's actually a very bad thing. Think about how much money people spend every day on general use items (clothes, shoes, household products, tools, appliances, ect). The majority of the money that you, and I, and nearly everyone else spends every single day leaves the country and only a small portion of it ever comes back. America, as a whole, who be better served to keep that money here, not let it go elsewhere. The evidence is staring us right in the face and we look away, because we are fools who like cheap stuff, and don't have the foresight to see we're actually hurting ourselves.

3. That's not how a country stays rich, that's how a few people within a country stay rich, while everyone else goes poor. Low skill workers need good jobs too for a country to stay rich. Manufacturing has always been, and always will be, the backbone of an economy.   Of course we should be focusing on high value jobs (high skill) jobs, and doing as much as we can to promote an environment that encourages people to get the education needed to be capable of performing the work of those high skill jobs. But there will always be low skilled workers, it's unavoidable. But you can certainly make it so that even they have a decent paying job too, by ensuring there is a job for them in the first place, and not undercutting them by allowing foreign labor to be exploited to your fellow countrymen's plight.
There aren't nearly enough American workers to make those goods.  Unemployment is like 4% right now.  You can't just add millions of jobs and expect them to get filled as there aren't people to fill them, especially unskilled labor jobs that pay at the bottom of the pay scale.  American companies don't just make products in El Salvador, China, Mexico, etc. because the labor is cheaper (it is and of course that is a reason), but also because it is just hard to get people to fill those jobs in the U.S. 

Well, I think we can all agree the 'real' unemployment number is higher than 4%.  A lot of unemployed people don't get reported as such, and there's also a lot of people underemployed (part time workers and such).

But also, it's hard to fill those jobs because they do pay very low wages.  But they only pay such low wages because it's the only way for American companies to compete with foreign labor.  Eliminate the source of competing cheap of labor, and those jobs wouldn't be so low paying, and thus more desirable.

It can't be the only remedy, but it has to be part of the remedy.  It's not sustainable to keep sending out all of our money to foreign countries in the name of cheap labor.
No, they are low paying jobs because anyone can walk off the street, with little to no training or education, and can do the job.  Those types of jobs will always be at the bottom of the pay scale (even if you make the pay scale higher, they are still at the bottom of it).  Very similar to food service jobs, retail jobs, janitorial jobs, picking crops, etc.  There aren't enough people that want to do those jobs in this country.  That is one of the reason there are so many illegals working in those industries.  The companies, quite simply, can't find enough legal people that want to do them. 

Your explanation only explains why many manufacturing jobs are at the lower end of the pay scale, but it does not explain why they are as low paying as they are. That is a simple fact we've sold ourselves out to foreign countries who have no problem exploiting their population, all so we can buy more cheap crap at Walmart.

This all gets back to the fact that for years our country has entered into trade agreements with foreign countries that have been one sided, and have been very bad for the majority of Americans.

I'd encourage everyone to boycott foreign manufacturing when there is an American made alternative. Support your neighbor, support small business, buy local, buy American. You can thank me later.
Of course it does, whether the pay is $5 an hour, $10 an hour, or $50 an hour if they are the lowest paying jobs (which they should be) they still won't be able to be staffed properly because there aren't enough workers to perform those jobs.  Because if the entry level employee at McDonald's is making $15 an hour, the assistant manager is going to demand $20 an hour, the manager $25 an hour, etc. (or whatever).  If it costs that much to pay the labor then the Big Mac meal is going to cost $10 or maybe more if the farm worker also then has to pay his work force more.  Artificially raising the low paying wages won't correct the problem you are describing and it will probably make things far worse, as there really aren't millions and million of people available to make t-shirts, sneakers, knick knacks, etc.  American companies realized this years ago i.e. that people just don't want those jobs, so they looked overseas where they could find a ready, willing, and able work force.  It didn't hurt that that work force could also be paid much less then a similar work force in the states, but that is reality.

Now manufacturing jobs are more than unskilled, but they often aren't highly skilled or jobs that require much, if any, education so they do pay a bit more, but not so much more that it makes a real difference. 

Re: Trumpís Economy (merged)
« Reply #542 on: October 04, 2018, 03:42:10 PM »

Offline Surferdad

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Low skill manufacturing is not coming back to the US. The US needs to focus on protecting new industries, many of which rely on intellectual property.
This, TP.  The "bring back jobs" people haven't thought this through.  Who is gonna pick your lettuce?  Who is gonna assemble iPhones for 20 cents an hour?
Your joking right? This ridiculous statement can't be real? You guys a very young right?  The 400,000 manufacturing jobs that Trump gained and Obama said were not coming back are not real jobs? This elite attitude is beyond belief....God help us all.
Careful what you say about me, dude.

Re: Trumpís Economy (merged)
« Reply #543 on: October 04, 2018, 04:09:43 PM »

Offline gift

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Low skill manufacturing is not coming back to the US. The US needs to focus on protecting new industries, many of which rely on intellectual property.
This, TP.  The "bring back jobs" people haven't thought this through.  Who is gonna pick your lettuce?  Who is gonna assemble iPhones for 20 cents an hour?
Your joking right? This ridiculous statement can't be real? You guys a very young right?  The 400,000 manufacturing jobs that Trump gained and Obama said were not coming back are not real jobs? This elite attitude is beyond belief....God help us all.

There is still room for some manufacturing in the US. However, most of the low skill manufacturing is gone and not coming back. The US doesn't need to compete in that low margin, competitive labor arena. The US can lead in new industries. We should focus on those new industries (tech, energy, medicine and technology, agriculture and agr. technology, media, among others). The types of labor shift from low skill manufacturing to higher skill manufacturing, content creation, project management, customer service, analysis, research and development, sales, infrastructure engineering etc. The US can still lead in these industries and the US can be its own major customer for many of these industries, keeping much of it "at home". At least for the next era. All nations will always need to keep evolving. This is just where the US is right now.

Many of these industries will rely on protecting intellectual property. Whatever your opinions are on that, without it I don't know what the future holds for American industry.

Re: Trumpís Economy (merged)
« Reply #544 on: October 04, 2018, 04:11:22 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Low skill manufacturing is not coming back to the US. The US needs to focus on protecting new industries, many of which rely on intellectual property.
This, TP.  The "bring back jobs" people haven't thought this through.  Who is gonna pick your lettuce?  Who is gonna assemble iPhones for 20 cents an hour?
Your joking right? This ridiculous statement can't be real? You guys a very young right?  The 400,000 manufacturing jobs that Trump gained and Obama said were not coming back are not real jobs? This elite attitude is beyond belief....God help us all.

There is still room for some manufacturing in the US. However, most of the low skill manufacturing is gone and not coming back. The US doesn't need to compete in that low margin, competitive labor arena. The US can lead in new industries. We should focus on those new industries (tech, energy, medicine and technology, agriculture and agr. technology, media, among others). The types of labor shift from low skill manufacturing to higher skill manufacturing, content creation, project management, customer service, analysis, research and development, sales, infrastructure engineering etc. The US can still lead in these industries and the US can be its own major customer for many of these industries, keeping much of it "at home". At least for the next era. All nations will always need to keep evolving. This is just where the US is right now.

Many of these industries will rely on protecting intellectual property. Whatever your opinions are on that, without it I don't know what the future holds for American industry.
Yeah this is what I've been trying to say, but you did it far more eloquently and succinctly than I've been doing. 

P.S. everyone knock off the snippiness.  If you can't keep things on the up and up, don't post. Thanks.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2018, 04:17:34 PM by Moranis »

Re: Trumpís Economy (merged)
« Reply #545 on: October 04, 2018, 05:54:11 PM »

Offline Surferdad

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Low skill manufacturing is not coming back to the US. The US needs to focus on protecting new industries, many of which rely on intellectual property.
This, TP.  The "bring back jobs" people haven't thought this through.  Who is gonna pick your lettuce?  Who is gonna assemble iPhones for 20 cents an hour?
Your joking right? This ridiculous statement can't be real? You guys a very young right?  The 400,000 manufacturing jobs that Trump gained and Obama said were not coming back are not real jobs? This elite attitude is beyond belief....God help us all.

There is still room for some manufacturing in the US. However, most of the low skill manufacturing is gone and not coming back. The US doesn't need to compete in that low margin, competitive labor arena. The US can lead in new industries. We should focus on those new industries (tech, energy, medicine and technology, agriculture and agr. technology, media, among others). The types of labor shift from low skill manufacturing to higher skill manufacturing, content creation, project management, customer service, analysis, research and development, sales, infrastructure engineering etc. The US can still lead in these industries and the US can be its own major customer for many of these industries, keeping much of it "at home". At least for the next era. All nations will always need to keep evolving. This is just where the US is right now.

Many of these industries will rely on protecting intellectual property. Whatever your opinions are on that, without it I don't know what the future holds for American industry.
TP for that concise summary.  If you are about to enter the labor force, look at where things are headed and get yourself trained to ride this wave.  Make sure you have computer skills, learn about project management and customer service or take a internship in these areas, etc. etc.

Re: Trumpís Economy (merged)
« Reply #546 on: October 17, 2018, 05:49:55 PM »

Offline Pucaccia

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U.S. Is Worldís Most Competitive Economy for First Time in a Decade
Country regains top spot in World Economic Forum rankings thanks to strong economic growth.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-is-worlds-most-competitive-economy-for-first-time-in-a-decade-1539727213

Re: Trumpís Economy (merged)
« Reply #547 on: October 24, 2018, 04:29:44 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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Stock markets drop again, now are down for 2018 overall. 

https://www.ft.com/content/c9fc7e26-d7c3-11e8-a854-33d6f82e62f8

Prices were probably inflated before but this is not a great sign for an economy continuing to grow.

Re: Trumpís Economy (merged)
« Reply #548 on: October 29, 2018, 06:43:23 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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Stock markets drop again, now are down for 2018 overall. 

https://www.ft.com/content/c9fc7e26-d7c3-11e8-a854-33d6f82e62f8

Prices were probably inflated before but this is not a great sign for an economy continuing to grow.


Was about to post the following and saw your comment....:


I have almost no understanding of how the economy operates or what economic indicators are most pertinent to a valid assessment of our economy.   I have long ago given up trying to understand - so am not looking for an economics lesson.   My point/question today is purely political.  Will the fact that the NYSE is now more than 1% down for the year (2018) start to get some political traction?   

I suspect that most Americans are more or less like me -- they look at one number (probably most often the Dow) and draw conclusions that may be wholely inaccurate perceptions about the economy, but are nonetheless influential politically.  Just curious as to whether Cbloggers are wondering (as I am) if the current trend continues for another week what impact might this have on the elections.    Are any democrats beginning to use the recent decline in their advertising?  If the downturn continues through the week, will it mitigate some enthusiasm from some republican voters causing them not to come out, or shift some undecideds to democrats?

BTW -- not really looking for an explanation (e.g., it's a "market correction").  I am asking about your thoughts about economic perceptions and whether you think the perceptions will have voter influence next week.

Re: Trumpís Economy (merged)
« Reply #549 on: October 29, 2018, 07:32:33 PM »

Offline BringToughnessBack

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Current stock market has not pushed me closer to either side. The tariffs needed to happen as we could not allow China to keep enjoying a lopsided situation. I for one, donít trust the stock market as well and would not be surprised if one party is enabling that fear as well. CNBC is filled with anti Trump articles and definitely pushing the fear the market drop more then I can remember.

My 401k did go from plus 15;to currently down 7 so not loving that but I am in for long term and a healthy trade deal with China will secure that on a longer horizon. Great opportunity to snap up some downtrodden tech stocks like Amazon as well, so every drop, is opportunity to add.

My state is a foregone conclusion though for Democrat. I did firmly vote against the socialism amendment that is going to pass though....not loving that. I do know of some long term Democrats who actually shifted due to the past few months. This includes my Mom who has never not voted Democrat and she is in a state where itís close. Will be interesting to see if polls are wrong again though.


Re: Trumpís Economy (merged)
« Reply #550 on: October 29, 2018, 07:44:04 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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Current stock market has not pushed me closer to either side. The tariffs needed to happen as we could not allow China to keep enjoying a lopsided situation. I for one, donít trust the stock market as well and would not be surprised if one party is enabling that fear as well. CNBC is filled with anti Trump articles and definitely pushing the fear the market drop more then I can remember.

My 401k did go from plus 15;to currently down 7 so not loving that but I am in for long term and a healthy trade deal with China will secure that on a longer horizon. Great opportunity to snap up some downtrodden tech stocks like Amazon as well, so every drop, is opportunity to add.

My state is a foregone conclusion though for Democrat. I did firmly vote against the socialism amendment that is going to pass though....not loving that. I do know of some long term Democrats who actually shifted due to the past few months. This includes my Mom who has never not voted Democrat and she is in a state where itís close. Will be interesting to see if polls are wrong again though.

Didn't know we were having a vote on Socialism this year that is going to pass.  There goes the stock market I guess. 

Re: Trumpís Economy (merged)
« Reply #551 on: October 29, 2018, 07:46:12 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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Current stock market has not pushed me closer to either side. The tariffs needed to happen as we could not allow China to keep enjoying a lopsided situation. I for one, don’t trust the stock market as well and would not be surprised if one party is enabling that fear as well. CNBC is filled with anti Trump articles and definitely pushing the fear the market drop more then I can remember.

My 401k did go from plus 15;to currently down 7 so not loving that but I am in for long term and a healthy trade deal with China will secure that on a longer horizon. Great opportunity to snap up some downtrodden tech stocks like Amazon as well, so every drop, is opportunity to add.

My state is a foregone conclusion though for Democrat. I did firmly vote against the socialism amendment that is going to pass though....not loving that. I do know of some long term Democrats who actually shifted due to the past few months. This includes my Mom who has never not voted Democrat and she is in a state where it’s close. Will be interesting to see if polls are wrong again though.

Didn't know we were having a vote on Socialism this year that is going to pass.  There goes the stock market I guess. 

What exactly is this about?  Apparently I'm in the dark here on this.

Re: Trumpís Economy (merged)
« Reply #552 on: October 29, 2018, 07:54:48 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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Current stock market has not pushed me closer to either side. The tariffs needed to happen as we could not allow China to keep enjoying a lopsided situation. I for one, donít trust the stock market as well and would not be surprised if one party is enabling that fear as well. CNBC is filled with anti Trump articles and definitely pushing the fear the market drop more then I can remember.

My 401k did go from plus 15;to currently down 7 so not loving that but I am in for long term and a healthy trade deal with China will secure that on a longer horizon. Great opportunity to snap up some downtrodden tech stocks like Amazon as well, so every drop, is opportunity to add.

My state is a foregone conclusion though for Democrat. I did firmly vote against the socialism amendment that is going to pass though....not loving that. I do know of some long term Democrats who actually shifted due to the past few months. This includes my Mom who has never not voted Democrat and she is in a state where itís close. Will be interesting to see if polls are wrong again though.

Didn't know we were having a vote on Socialism this year that is going to pass.  There goes the stock market I guess. 

What exactly is this about?  Apparently I'm in the dark here on this.


I'm with you KG -- no idea what the Socialism Amendment is.

Re: Trumpís Economy (merged)
« Reply #553 on: October 29, 2018, 08:02:24 PM »

Offline coco

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Current stock market has not pushed me closer to either side. The tariffs needed to happen as we could not allow China to keep enjoying a lopsided situation. I for one, donít trust the stock market as well and would not be surprised if one party is enabling that fear as well. CNBC is filled with anti Trump articles and definitely pushing the fear the market drop more then I can remember.

My 401k did go from plus 15;to currently down 7 so not loving that but I am in for long term and a healthy trade deal with China will secure that on a longer horizon. Great opportunity to snap up some downtrodden tech stocks like Amazon as well, so every drop, is opportunity to add.

My state is a foregone conclusion though for Democrat. I did firmly vote against the socialism amendment that is going to pass though....not loving that. I do know of some long term Democrats who actually shifted due to the past few months. This includes my Mom who has never not voted Democrat and she is in a state where itís close. Will be interesting to see if polls are wrong again though.

Didn't know we were having a vote on Socialism this year that is going to pass.  There goes the stock market I guess. 

What exactly is this about?  Apparently I'm in the dark here on this.


I'm with you KG -- no idea what the Socialism Amendment is.

Maybe a Trump tweet?

Re: Trumpís Economy (merged)
« Reply #554 on: October 30, 2018, 07:24:29 AM »

Offline jambr380

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Current stock market has not pushed me closer to either side. The tariffs needed to happen as we could not allow China to keep enjoying a lopsided situation. I for one, donít trust the stock market as well and would not be surprised if one party is enabling that fear as well. CNBC is filled with anti Trump articles and definitely pushing the fear the market drop more then I can remember.

My 401k did go from plus 15;to currently down 7 so not loving that but I am in for long term and a healthy trade deal with China will secure that on a longer horizon. Great opportunity to snap up some downtrodden tech stocks like Amazon as well, so every drop, is opportunity to add.

My state is a foregone conclusion though for Democrat. I did firmly vote against the socialism amendment that is going to pass though....not loving that. I do know of some long term Democrats who actually shifted due to the past few months. This includes my Mom who has never not voted Democrat and she is in a state where itís close. Will be interesting to see if polls are wrong again though.

Didn't know we were having a vote on Socialism this year that is going to pass.  There goes the stock market I guess.

And apparently this is the year that somebody who has never not voted Democrat is going to make a stand and vote Republican - that makes absolutely no sense at all...not that somebody would vote against Democrats, but that somebody who was a lifelong one is choosing this as the year to switch. Man, Trump really has gotten into people's heads - that guy is a true magician.

 

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