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Author Topic: Going small doesn't always work  (Read 3218 times)

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Going small doesn't always work
« on: December 21, 2017, 12:17:08 AM »

Offline Chris22

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Once again, Brad goes small, and we get killed in the paint.
I am so sick of not seeing Baynes at all in the fourth quarter.
Horford was a minus 13.
Baynes makes Horford better.
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Re: Going small doesn't always work
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2017, 01:38:17 AM »

Offline iadera

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These losses go fully on Brad. Nevermind the smallball, you can't let game like this sliping from your hands. You miss only Morris and face the Heat at home without Dragić, Whiteside, McGruder, Winslow. Screw you Brad...I don't see Rockets, Warriors, not even more Cavs losing games like this. And it's our 3rd in last 2 weeks. Considering great things happened after GH's injury, I don't want to press red alert, but as a longtime Celtics' fan I expect some explanations.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 01:45:54 AM by iadera »
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Re: Going small doesn't always work
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2017, 03:55:23 AM »

Offline ederson

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Overreacting a bit ? The Cavs are 2 wins under the C's without losing games like that ? A team starting 2 19year olds and so many new faces will have defeats like that regardless of small or big lineup
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Re: Going small doesn't always work
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2017, 07:14:07 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
These losses go fully on Brad.

I disagree, he can't make the shots for the four guys off our bench that scored zero and went 0-7 from the field.  As a team we were 30-80 from the field, and guys were not hitting shots. 


Someone how former players like JJ and KO become all-stars when they play us.  To me that is the most unacceptable stuff.   We let him score triple his season average.  Guys seemed to lack the wherewithal that he was hot.
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Re: Going small doesn't always work
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2017, 07:22:13 AM »

Offline KGBirdBias

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I'm beginning to get worried that Kyrie is handling the ball TOO much. He's getting his points but the losses are starting to look very similar to his Cavs teams before Bron came back. I enjoy watching Kyrie but at times we need ball movement and flow to the offense.

-A lot of Kyrie
-No bench
-Defense is slipping
-Not enough grit when needed...when KO puts up 32 on you, you have to examine your toughness

I'm not panicking but just starting to see a pattern.
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Re: Going small doesn't always work
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2017, 08:16:20 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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I'm not panicking but just starting to see a pattern

The pattern I see is that Irving is the only guy who can score at the end of games.   Tatum is a great shooter but does not always seem to seek the moment.
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Re: Going small doesn't always work
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2017, 08:43:28 AM »

Offline jambr380

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Quote from: KGBirdBias on December 21, 2017, 07:22:13 AM
I'm beginning to get worried that Kyrie is handling the ball TOO much. He's getting his points but the losses are starting to look very similar to his Cavs teams before Bron came back. I enjoy watching Kyrie but at times we need ball movement and flow to the offense.

-A lot of Kyrie
-No bench
-Defense is slipping
-Not enough grit when needed...when KO puts up 32 on you, you have to examine your toughness

I'm not panicking but just starting to see a pattern.

What was the other option last night - milk Smart for even more 3-pointers? I would love to get Tatum and Brown more involved, but Tatum seemed rattled after dislocating his finger and Brown never seems to do much after killer 1st quarters. Yabusele of all players was the only other player who didn't totally stink it up from the field.

As for last night, the only reason we even had a chance was the small-ball line-up. The Heat were raining down 3s on us until Brad put a [small-ball] unit out there that could limit the damage. We were actually able to finally score at a decent clip down the stretch. Unfortunately, too little too late.
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Re: Going small doesn't always work
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2017, 08:51:55 AM »

Online DefenseWinsChamps

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Going small works when your players are more talented and quicker than their players. It might work if your players are just quicker, but not always.

Our young guys need development. That is all. It is not a sweeping indictment of any gameplan. We just need to be better.
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Re: Going small doesn't always work
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2017, 08:54:05 AM »

Offline KGBirdBias

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Quote from: Celtics4ever on December 21, 2017, 08:16:20 AM
Quote
I'm not panicking but just starting to see a pattern

The pattern I see is that Irving is the only guy who can score at the end of games.   Tatum is a great shooter but does not always seem to seek the moment.

It's not because Tatum doesn't want it, it's because they don't get him the ball and encourage him to get aggressive. I would rather have him in isolated situations than Brown just because of his ballhandling. He's either going to get a bucket or get foul most of the time. He won't take a terrible, forced shot.
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Re: Going small doesn't always work
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2017, 08:56:24 AM »

Offline KGBirdBias

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I think Ainge and Stevens want to see who is going to step up in big moments. Stevens likes to play guys at pressure points to see how they respond.

Ainge probably already has some moves in mind. It's not like we have a bunch of tradeable assets. Rozier, Smart and picks is about it.
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Re: Going small doesn't always work
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2017, 09:40:01 AM »

Offline droopdog7

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Quote from: KGBirdBias on December 21, 2017, 08:54:05 AM
Quote from: Celtics4ever on December 21, 2017, 08:16:20 AM
Quote
I'm not panicking but just starting to see a pattern

The pattern I see is that Irving is the only guy who can score at the end of games.   Tatum is a great shooter but does not always seem to seek the moment.

It's not because Tatum doesn't want it, it's because they don't get him the ball and encourage him to get aggressive. I would rather have him in isolated situations than Brown just because of his ballhandling. He's either going to get a bucket or get foul most of the time. He won't take a terrible, forced shot.
Its because Tatum isn’t ready.  He’s actually benefitting by being a third or fourth option. That’s why is percentages are so high.  I know people want to annoint Tatum but he’s not there yet.
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Re: Going small doesn't always work
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2017, 10:43:39 AM »

Offline KGBirdBias

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Quote from: droopdog7 on December 21, 2017, 09:40:01 AM
Quote from: KGBirdBias on December 21, 2017, 08:54:05 AM
Quote from: Celtics4ever on December 21, 2017, 08:16:20 AM
Quote
I'm not panicking but just starting to see a pattern

The pattern I see is that Irving is the only guy who can score at the end of games.   Tatum is a great shooter but does not always seem to seek the moment.

It's not because Tatum doesn't want it, it's because they don't get him the ball and encourage him to get aggressive. I would rather have him in isolated situations than Brown just because of his ballhandling. He's either going to get a bucket or get foul most of the time. He won't take a terrible, forced shot.
Its because Tatum isn’t ready.  He’s actually benefitting by being a third or fourth option. That’s why is percentages are so high.  I know people want to annoint Tatum but he’s not there yet.

I understand he's the 3rd or 4th option when Kyrie and Horford are on the court. What about when we have no scoring on the court and are depending on Rozier and Smart. Put him in positions where he's the #1, #2 option. I'm not sure "he's not ready" is a good excuse. Ready for what? Stardom, no...getting some buckets and carrying a 2nd unit, yes.
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Re: Going small doesn't always work
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2017, 10:59:57 AM »

Offline Atzar

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Quote from: droopdog7 on December 21, 2017, 09:40:01 AM
Quote from: KGBirdBias on December 21, 2017, 08:54:05 AM
Quote from: Celtics4ever on December 21, 2017, 08:16:20 AM
Quote
I'm not panicking but just starting to see a pattern

The pattern I see is that Irving is the only guy who can score at the end of games.   Tatum is a great shooter but does not always seem to seek the moment.

It's not because Tatum doesn't want it, it's because they don't get him the ball and encourage him to get aggressive. I would rather have him in isolated situations than Brown just because of his ballhandling. He's either going to get a bucket or get foul most of the time. He won't take a terrible, forced shot.
Its because Tatum isn’t ready.  He’s actually benefitting by being a third or fourth option. That’s why is percentages are so high.  I know people want to annoint Tatum but he’s not there yet.

This.  There's a difference between what Irving is doing and what Tatum is doing.

Irving can break down the defense.  When the other team is set and geared up to stop him, he creates a shot and scores anyway.  This is why we go to him at the end of games. 

Tatum (and you could mention Brown here as well) is an opportunist.  If somebody creates an open look for him, he's doing a very good job at knocking it down.  He plays well in transition, when the defense isn't set yet.  He can attack off the bounce when Kyrie or Al have bent the defense for him or gotten him a favorable switch.  But if you ask him to create something out of nothing, that's not a strength of his game. 
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Re: Going small doesn't always work
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2017, 11:38:50 AM »

Offline droopdog7

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Quote from: Atzar on December 21, 2017, 10:59:57 AM
Quote from: droopdog7 on December 21, 2017, 09:40:01 AM
Quote from: KGBirdBias on December 21, 2017, 08:54:05 AM
Quote from: Celtics4ever on December 21, 2017, 08:16:20 AM
Quote
I'm not panicking but just starting to see a pattern

The pattern I see is that Irving is the only guy who can score at the end of games.   Tatum is a great shooter but does not always seem to seek the moment.

It's not because Tatum doesn't want it, it's because they don't get him the ball and encourage him to get aggressive. I would rather have him in isolated situations than Brown just because of his ballhandling. He's either going to get a bucket or get foul most of the time. He won't take a terrible, forced shot.
Its because Tatum isn’t ready.  He’s actually benefitting by being a third or fourth option. That’s why is percentages are so high.  I know people want to annoint Tatum but he’s not there yet.

This.  There's a difference between what Irving is doing and what Tatum is doing.

Irving can break down the defense.  When the other team is set and geared up to stop him, he creates a shot and scores anyway.  This is why we go to him at the end of games. 

Tatum (and you could mention Brown here as well) is an opportunist.  If somebody creates an open look for him, he's doing a very good job at knocking it down.  He plays well in transition, when the defense isn't set yet.  He can attack off the bounce when Kyrie or Al have bent the defense for him or gotten him a favorable switch.  But if you ask him to create something out of nothing, that's not a strength of his game.
Part of what we're seeing is just natural.  Older guys, with more experience, tend to be more assertive.  In addition, Rozier and Smart simply have no conscious (especially Rozier).  Very difficult to coach that mentality (or any mentality) out of guys. 

And even if there were different guys out there, I still don't think Tatum is ready to be a lead dog for the starters or the bench.  Like I said, he is taking advantage of NOT being a focus of the offense or defense.  Based on what I see, increasing his usage will very likely decrease his effectiveness. 

Dude is 19 and a rookie.  This should not be a controversial statement.
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Re: Going small doesn't always work
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2017, 02:37:30 PM »

Offline KGBirdBias

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Ok I understand the comparison between an older player and younger player and I agree.

Here's the question. Has he shown you he can handle stepping in for Hayward up to this point? Did you expect it? I think leading the NBA in 3pt % as a rookie tells me he may be able to handle more. Right now we're relying on Theis, Semi, Larkin and Yabu to produce more and they are the ones that probably aren't ready to give more.

We have nowhere else to go for buckets and this is why we're losing leads. Give him more and see if he can handle more, it's basketball, it's not making dinner for Wyc. I'm not saying he should be going for 30 points but what other options do we have? This is all part of development and he and Brown have answered the bell so far. This NBA rookie class is playing better than some vets.

I cringe when Smart starts taking too many shots. Rozier is good if he's hitting early...if not, he struggles for the entire game.
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