Can Brad Stevens help Kyrie Irving become a top 5-10 NBA player? Still improving

[Roy H.]

For Kyrie to take that 'next leap' he's going to have to realize a jump in numbers, either scoring more per game or in assisting more per game or both.

This is not the case, unless by numbers you also broadly meant to include advanced defensive metrics.  Which I assume you didn't, because if you did, saying 'a jump in numbers' means that you basically said 'for kyrie to get better, he's going to have to get better.'

ESPN rated Kyrie as top 16 last year and #25 this year, despite making major strides between those rankings coming out.  Let's meet in the middle and say he's #20.  How much better would Kyrie be if he became just a slightly above average defender?

Well, ESPN had Jimmy Butler at #11.  The same Jimmy Butler who played on all star team with the league MVP and DPOY... and IIRC they didn't make the conference finals a single time in a multi-year span, playing in the worst conference in history.  The same Jimmy Butler that put up great stats, but played on a #8 seed in the East and got outplayed in the clutch by the 3rd best player on our team, a guy who never has been and probably never will be an all star.

Butler is well above 'above average' at defense, but less offensively talented and much less accomplished in the playoffs than Kyrie... and we're only talking about Kyrie making a leap on D and considering nothing else...

So yeah, if Jimmy Butler can be considered a top 11 player, then CBS can help Kyrie become a top 10 player.  Will it happen?  Not sure.  Can it happen?  100% it can happen.

I agree becoming an above average defender (while maintaining his offense and leading a winning team) would lead to a big leap.

At the same time, I'm not sure that he's capable.  I don't think it's simply a matter of effort or commitment. 

[Granath]

He already is

Espn ranking is a joke

AHHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Oh, you're serious?

AHHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[mmmmm]

This trade is a can't lose move.

What if Kyrie is just the same player he's been for the first 6 years of his career? What if Kyrie gets seriously injured (something that's happened many times before)? What if Isaiah returns to the level he played at last year? What if the Cavs win the lottery? What if Kyrie leaves in 2 years? There are many, many ways for this to be a "lose" move.

Ok, but how likely are these things?  Better yet, name a single guard in his 20's that we acquired from another team or via free agency who served as a distributor for us, and didn't get better.  Not saying there isn't one, but Jordan Crawford, Evan Turner, and IT make me feel pretty [dang] confident that Kyrie's game is going to improve as early as this year.

Jordan Crawford?  He was barely an NBA player before, during and after his Boston tenure.   He had a couple of weeks of hot shooting.  Brad gave him minutes and played him more at PG than he had been used at other stops because we basically had no other option at PG.  That didn't really make hm a better player.   Look closely at who he was at WAS before he came to BOS and who he was for GSW after he left.  He was the same low-efficiency player.   If anything, it wasn't until this LAST year, playing for NOP at age 28 after 2 years OUT of the NBA (playing overseas) that his game has _finally_ shown notable improvement as his scoring efficiency took a huge leap over what it was all his prior stint in the NBA.   Maybe his coaches in China were better than Brad?   Or maybe it is just too small of a sample (another hot shooting streak?)and we'll just have to see how he does this coming year?

And other than becoming a pretty good defender while he was with us, Evan Turner was and is a thoroughly average NBA player.  Again, our roster at the time had a need for what he could do and he got minutes.  But he didn't become a magically different player for us than he had been before.  His shooting & scoring efficiencies pretty much were and are the same as they were before he came here.  Thoroughly meh.   Evan always had the ability to pass and Brad gave him that role so his assist rates jumped up.  But again, that was largely because of lack of alternatives - Marcus Smart just wasn't ready yet to run the offense.  And while his assist rates jumped, so did his turnover rates.  The moment Evan got to Portland, his AST% (and his TOV%) dropped right back to exactly what it was before.

Similarly, while Isaiah's year last year was amazing, he came here already as an elite scoring point guard and hit the ground running the moment he arrived in Boston.  He was already a super-efficient scorer and he didn't have to learn our system or be coached up - his scoring efficiency was elite before he got here and continued elite with his first minutes on the floor for us.   The difference this last year was with the addition of Al Horford (and the much better outside shooting provided by guys like Avery, Jae & Kelly), Thomas for the first time in his career had a little bit of help on the floor.  The rise in his already great efficiency to a next level was a natural extension of what he'd been doing before with no help.  His overall scoring efficiency for his tenure in Boston (59.4%) is only a little bit higher than what he had posted his whole career prior (57.6%).  His assist rate in BOS (32.8%) was almost identical to what it was his last year in SAC (32.2%).  Again, there was no magic transformation.  Brad gave him minutes because he was (by far) our best option for the PG role.  And Isaiah executed.

That's what coaches do.  They put players on the floor.  And the best coaches (like Brad) put their best players on the floor as much as possible and do their best to manage it so other players are on the floor when the match ups are favorable. I.E., to put them in position to succeed.  But it is up to the player to execute and to become who they become.

If Kyrie is going to become 'next level Kyrie', it is because HE is going to become that guy.   Not because Brad is going to sprinkle magic pixie dust on him.

[smokeablount]

For Kyrie to take that 'next leap' he's going to have to realize a jump in numbers, either scoring more per game or in assisting more per game or both.

This is not the case, unless by numbers you also broadly meant to include advanced defensive metrics.  Which I assume you didn't, because if you did, saying 'a jump in numbers' means that you basically said 'for kyrie to get better, he's going to have to get better.'

ESPN rated Kyrie as top 16 last year and #25 this year, despite making major strides between those rankings coming out.  Let's meet in the middle and say he's #20.  How much better would Kyrie be if he became just a slightly above average defender?

Well, ESPN had Jimmy Butler at #11.  The same Jimmy Butler who played on all star team with the league MVP and DPOY... and IIRC they didn't make the conference finals a single time in a multi-year span, playing in the worst conference in history.  The same Jimmy Butler that put up great stats, but played on a #8 seed in the East and got outplayed in the clutch by the 3rd best player on our team, a guy who never has been and probably never will be an all star.

Butler is well above 'above average' at defense, but less offensively talented and much less accomplished in the playoffs than Kyrie... and we're only talking about Kyrie making a leap on D and considering nothing else...

So yeah, if Jimmy Butler can be considered a top 11 player, then CBS can help Kyrie become a top 10 player.  Will it happen?  Not sure.  Can it happen?  100% it can happen.

I agree becoming an above average defender (while maintaining his offense and leading a winning team) would lead to a big leap.

At the same time, I'm not sure that he's capable.  I don't think it's simply a matter of effort or commitment.

I would agree if I didn't watch him guard Steph Curry, one of the toughest guys to D up of my lifetime, about as well as I've seen anyone do it. Yes it was only about a week or work and if you're going to do it the finals would definitely be the time, but to me it offers hope.

[smokeablount]

This trade is a can't lose move.

What if Kyrie is just the same player he's been for the first 6 years of his career? What if Kyrie gets seriously injured (something that's happened many times before)? What if Isaiah returns to the level he played at last year? What if the Cavs win the lottery? What if Kyrie leaves in 2 years? There are many, many ways for this to be a "lose" move.

Ok, but how likely are these things?  Better yet, name a single guard in his 20's that we acquired from another team or via free agency who served as a distributor for us, and didn't get better.  Not saying there isn't one, but Jordan Crawford, Evan Turner, and IT make me feel pretty [dang] confident that Kyrie's game is going to improve as early as this year.

Jordan Crawford?  He was barely an NBA player before, during and after his Boston tenure.   He had a couple of weeks of hot shooting.  Brad gave him minutes and played him more at PG than he had been used at other stops because we basically had no other option at PG.  That didn't really make hm a better player.   Look closely at who he was at WAS before he came to BOS and who he was for GSW after he left.  He was the same low-efficiency player.   If anything, it wasn't until this LAST year, playing for NOP at age 28 after 2 years OUT of the NBA (playing overseas) that his game has _finally_ shown notable improvement as his scoring efficiency took a huge leap over what it was all his prior stint in the NBA.   Maybe his coaches in China were better than Brad?   Or maybe it is just too small of a sample (another hot shooting streak?)and we'll just have to see how he does this coming year?

And other than becoming a pretty good defender while he was with us, Evan Turner was and is a thoroughly average NBA player.  Again, our roster at the time had a need for what he could do and he got minutes.  But he didn't become a magically different player for us than he had been before.  His shooting & scoring efficiencies pretty much were and are the same as they were before he came here.  Thoroughly meh.   Evan always had the ability to pass and Brad gave him that role so his assist rates jumped up.  But again, that was largely because of lack of alternatives - Marcus Smart just wasn't ready yet to run the offense.  And while his assist rates jumped, so did his turnover rates.  The moment Evan got to Portland, his AST% (and his TOV%) dropped right back to exactly what it was before.

Similarly, while Isaiah's year last year was amazing, he came here already as an elite scoring point guard and hit the ground running the moment he arrived in Boston.  He was already a super-efficient scorer and he didn't have to learn our system or be coached up - his scoring efficiency was elite before he got here and continued elite with his first minutes on the floor for us.   The difference this last year was with the addition of Al Horford (and the much better outside shooting provided by guys like Avery, Jae & Kelly), Thomas for the first time in his career had a little bit of help on the floor.  The rise in his already great efficiency to a next level was a natural extension of what he'd been doing before with no help.  His overall scoring efficiency for his tenure in Boston (59.4%) is only a little bit higher than what he had posted his whole career prior (57.6%).  His assist rate in BOS (32.8%) was almost identical to what it was his last year in SAC (32.2%).  Again, there was no magic transformation.  Brad gave him minutes because he was (by far) our best option for the PG role.  And Isaiah executed.

That's what coaches do.  They put players on the floor.  And the best coaches (like Brad) put their best players on the floor as much as possible and do their best to manage it so other players are on the floor when the match ups are favorable. I.E., to put them in position to succeed.  But it is up to the player to execute and to become who they become.

If Kyrie is going to become 'next level Kyrie', it is because HE is going to become that guy.   Not because Brad is going to sprinkle magic pixie dust on him.

That's a lot of text that doesn't really address the core debate of whether Kyrie can be a top 10 player. We both agree he has to get better to do so.

Simple question for you- under what coach did Crawford, Turner and IT play their best? 

Under CBS Crawford earned player of the week, Turner got a contract that "pretty good defenders" are lucky to make in their entire NBA careers, and IT went from a bench player to 2nd team all NBA.

So you think Crawford was best on NOP? You just said he was 28 then, well, the thing is, Kyrie is 26. If "barely an NBA player" can make strides between 26 and 28 then a top 20 player can too. Unless you want to give the credit to Chinese coaches.

Yeah, Kyrie will be the one to make himself improve, not CBS. That's obvious and nowhere did I say otherwise. I said distributors peak under CBS. Prove me wrong.

I asked for the name of someone that didn't. You made, IMO, losing arguments for the guys I did name and couldn't name anyone else to make your point.

Instead of replying to my rebuttal of your post, you're trying to tell me that Evan Turner and IT didn't play their best under Brad (that's nuts) and that Jordan Crawford improved between ages 26 and 28, which is what this thread is about in regards to Kyrie.

[max215]

This trade is a can't lose move.

What if Kyrie is just the same player he's been for the first 6 years of his career? What if Kyrie gets seriously injured (something that's happened many times before)? What if Isaiah returns to the level he played at last year? What if the Cavs win the lottery? What if Kyrie leaves in 2 years? There are many, many ways for this to be a "lose" move.

Ok, but how likely are these things?  Better yet, name a single guard in his 20's that we acquired from another team or via free agency who served as a distributor for us, and didn't get better.  Not saying there isn't one, but Jordan Crawford, Evan Turner, and IT make me feel pretty [dang] confident that Kyrie's game is going to improve as early as this year.

One of these things occurring, which would be enough to sink the trade, is pretty likely. But that's beside the point. I was taking issue with the idea that the trade is a "can't lose." There are countless ways for us to lose the trade.

[mmmmm]

For Kyrie to take that 'next leap' he's going to have to realize a jump in numbers, either scoring more per game or in assisting more per game or both.

This is not the case, unless by numbers you also broadly meant to include advanced defensive metrics.  Which I assume you didn't, because if you did, saying 'a jump in numbers' means that you basically said 'for kyrie to get better, he's going to have to get better.'

ESPN rated Kyrie as top 16 last year and #25 this year, despite making major strides between those rankings coming out.  Let's meet in the middle and say he's #20.  How much better would Kyrie be if he became just a slightly above average defender?

Well, ESPN had Jimmy Butler at #11.  The same Jimmy Butler who played on all star team with the league MVP and DPOY... and IIRC they didn't make the conference finals a single time in a multi-year span, playing in the worst conference in history.  The same Jimmy Butler that put up great stats, but played on a #8 seed in the East and got outplayed in the clutch by the 3rd best player on our team, a guy who never has been and probably never will be an all star.

Butler is well above 'above average' at defense, but less offensively talented and much less accomplished in the playoffs than Kyrie... and we're only talking about Kyrie making a leap on D and considering nothing else...

So yeah, if Jimmy Butler can be considered a top 11 player, then CBS can help Kyrie become a top 10 player.  Will it happen?  Not sure.  Can it happen?  100% it can happen.

I don't think Kyrie becoming an average or even slightly above average defender really moves the needle much.

It's a positional thing.  Defense for scoring guards just isn't nearly as important in the game today as it is for wings and bigs.   Harden, Curry, Westbrook - these guys are not elite, MVP caliber players because of their defense.  And even though Chris Paul is a pretty good defender, that's not why he's an elite PG either.

You can see this reality in games that match up elite defensive guards like Avery Bradley and Marcus Smart against elite scoring guards like Curry, Lowry, and yes, Irving.   Yes, the great defender will win a highlight reel play here and there.  But overall, they just get torched just the same as all the 'bad' defensive guards.   What slows those guys down is superior defense in the paint _behind_ the guards.

The way the rules are enforced (no hand-checking, zone defenses) the prevalence of the pick & roll (forcing switches onto slower bigs) and the importance of the 3PT shot has basically made this the modern reality.  Defense in perimeter guards is simply not as important as it was in the days of guys like Dennis Johnson an Reggie Lewis.

[Roy H.]

For Kyrie to take that 'next leap' he's going to have to realize a jump in numbers, either scoring more per game or in assisting more per game or both.

This is not the case, unless by numbers you also broadly meant to include advanced defensive metrics.  Which I assume you didn't, because if you did, saying 'a jump in numbers' means that you basically said 'for kyrie to get better, he's going to have to get better.'

ESPN rated Kyrie as top 16 last year and #25 this year, despite making major strides between those rankings coming out.  Let's meet in the middle and say he's #20.  How much better would Kyrie be if he became just a slightly above average defender?

Well, ESPN had Jimmy Butler at #11.  The same Jimmy Butler who played on all star team with the league MVP and DPOY... and IIRC they didn't make the conference finals a single time in a multi-year span, playing in the worst conference in history.  The same Jimmy Butler that put up great stats, but played on a #8 seed in the East and got outplayed in the clutch by the 3rd best player on our team, a guy who never has been and probably never will be an all star.

Butler is well above 'above average' at defense, but less offensively talented and much less accomplished in the playoffs than Kyrie... and we're only talking about Kyrie making a leap on D and considering nothing else...

So yeah, if Jimmy Butler can be considered a top 11 player, then CBS can help Kyrie become a top 10 player.  Will it happen?  Not sure.  Can it happen?  100% it can happen.

I agree becoming an above average defender (while maintaining his offense and leading a winning team) would lead to a big leap.

At the same time, I'm not sure that he's capable.  I don't think it's simply a matter of effort or commitment.

I would agree if I didn't watch him guard Steph Curry, one of the toughest guys to D up of my lifetime, about as well as I've seen anyone do it. Yes it was only about a week or work and if you're going to do it the finals would definitely be the time, but to me it offers hope.

The same guy got absolutely torched by Shaun Livingston, though. He played the worse defense (statistically) of any starter in the 2016 Finals, allowing opponents to shoot 8 percentage points above their normal FG%.

It is fair to criticize Kyrie's effort, but I think it's more than that. Playing defense against NBA players is very hard and requires high level skills.

[mmmmm]

This trade is a can't lose move.

What if Kyrie is just the same player he's been for the first 6 years of his career? What if Kyrie gets seriously injured (something that's happened many times before)? What if Isaiah returns to the level he played at last year? What if the Cavs win the lottery? What if Kyrie leaves in 2 years? There are many, many ways for this to be a "lose" move.

Ok, but how likely are these things?  Better yet, name a single guard in his 20's that we acquired from another team or via free agency who served as a distributor for us, and didn't get better.  Not saying there isn't one, but Jordan Crawford, Evan Turner, and IT make me feel pretty [dang] confident that Kyrie's game is going to improve as early as this year.

Jordan Crawford?  He was barely an NBA player before, during and after his Boston tenure.   He had a couple of weeks of hot shooting.  Brad gave him minutes and played him more at PG than he had been used at other stops because we basically had no other option at PG.  That didn't really make hm a better player.   Look closely at who he was at WAS before he came to BOS and who he was for GSW after he left.  He was the same low-efficiency player.   If anything, it wasn't until this LAST year, playing for NOP at age 28 after 2 years OUT of the NBA (playing overseas) that his game has _finally_ shown notable improvement as his scoring efficiency took a huge leap over what it was all his prior stint in the NBA.   Maybe his coaches in China were better than Brad?   Or maybe it is just too small of a sample (another hot shooting streak?)and we'll just have to see how he does this coming year?

And other than becoming a pretty good defender while he was with us, Evan Turner was and is a thoroughly average NBA player.  Again, our roster at the time had a need for what he could do and he got minutes.  But he didn't become a magically different player for us than he had been before.  His shooting & scoring efficiencies pretty much were and are the same as they were before he came here.  Thoroughly meh.   Evan always had the ability to pass and Brad gave him that role so his assist rates jumped up.  But again, that was largely because of lack of alternatives - Marcus Smart just wasn't ready yet to run the offense.  And while his assist rates jumped, so did his turnover rates.  The moment Evan got to Portland, his AST% (and his TOV%) dropped right back to exactly what it was before.

Similarly, while Isaiah's year last year was amazing, he came here already as an elite scoring point guard and hit the ground running the moment he arrived in Boston.  He was already a super-efficient scorer and he didn't have to learn our system or be coached up - his scoring efficiency was elite before he got here and continued elite with his first minutes on the floor for us.   The difference this last year was with the addition of Al Horford (and the much better outside shooting provided by guys like Avery, Jae & Kelly), Thomas for the first time in his career had a little bit of help on the floor.  The rise in his already great efficiency to a next level was a natural extension of what he'd been doing before with no help.  His overall scoring efficiency for his tenure in Boston (59.4%) is only a little bit higher than what he had posted his whole career prior (57.6%).  His assist rate in BOS (32.8%) was almost identical to what it was his last year in SAC (32.2%).  Again, there was no magic transformation.  Brad gave him minutes because he was (by far) our best option for the PG role.  And Isaiah executed.

That's what coaches do.  They put players on the floor.  And the best coaches (like Brad) put their best players on the floor as much as possible and do their best to manage it so other players are on the floor when the match ups are favorable. I.E., to put them in position to succeed.  But it is up to the player to execute and to become who they become.

If Kyrie is going to become 'next level Kyrie', it is because HE is going to become that guy.   Not because Brad is going to sprinkle magic pixie dust on him.

That's a lot of text that spectacularly failed to address the core debate of whether Kyrie can be a top 10 player. We both agree he has to get better to do so.

Simple question for you- under what coach did Crawford, Turner and IT play their best? 

Hint: under CBS Crawford earned player of the week, Turner got a contract that "pretty good defenders" are lucky to make in their entire NBA careers, and IT went from a bench player to 2nd team all NBA.

Oh, you think Crawford was best on NOP due to Chinese coaching? You just said he was 28 then, well, newsflash bro, Kyrie is 26. If "barely an NBA player" can make strides between 26 and 28 then a top 20 player can too. Unless you want to write a novel giving the credit to Chinese coaches.

Yeah, Kyrie will be the one to make himself improve, not CBS. That's obvious and nowhere did I say otherwise. I said distributors peak under CBS. Prove me wrong.

I asked for the name of someone that didn't. You made losing arguments for the guys I did name and couldn't name anyone else to make your point.

You didn't even reply to my rebuttal of the post that you made. Instead you're trying to tell me that Evan Turner and IT didn't play their best under Brad (that's a laugh) and that Jordan Crawford improved between ages 26 and 28, which is what this thread is about in regards to Kyrie.

You made an assertion (or at least a pretty heavy implication) that Jordan Crawford, Evan Turner and Isaiah Thomas all got better because they played for Brad.

My response is that, (a) Crawford didn't really improve at all, (b) Evan only improved on defense a (c) Isaiah's improvements were natural progressions and benefits from the improved team around him.

My contention is that while I do think of Brad as a great coach, I don't buy into the mythology that he is some sort of "point guard whisperer".  I don't believe that really happens at the NBA level and I certainly don't see any evidence here that it has.   I believe Brad smartly deploys the best options that he has and that has resulted in _playing time_ for guys like Crawford and Turner and Thomas that shows off the skills (or lack) that they have.

In Kyrie's case, he's not likely to see any big increase in playing time.   And unless Brad does something amazing with his schemes, his _opportunities_ to execute (touches, passes, shots) aren't going to be that different than they were in CLE.

So if he is going to 'elevate his game', he's going to have execute those opportunities at a higher level.

[mmmmm]

For Kyrie to take that 'next leap' he's going to have to realize a jump in numbers, either scoring more per game or in assisting more per game or both.

This is not the case, unless by numbers you also broadly meant to include advanced defensive metrics.  Which I assume you didn't, because if you did, saying 'a jump in numbers' means that you basically said 'for kyrie to get better, he's going to have to get better.'

ESPN rated Kyrie as top 16 last year and #25 this year, despite making major strides between those rankings coming out.  Let's meet in the middle and say he's #20.  How much better would Kyrie be if he became just a slightly above average defender?

Well, ESPN had Jimmy Butler at #11.  The same Jimmy Butler who played on all star team with the league MVP and DPOY... and IIRC they didn't make the conference finals a single time in a multi-year span, playing in the worst conference in history.  The same Jimmy Butler that put up great stats, but played on a #8 seed in the East and got outplayed in the clutch by the 3rd best player on our team, a guy who never has been and probably never will be an all star.

Butler is well above 'above average' at defense, but less offensively talented and much less accomplished in the playoffs than Kyrie... and we're only talking about Kyrie making a leap on D and considering nothing else...

So yeah, if Jimmy Butler can be considered a top 11 player, then CBS can help Kyrie become a top 10 player.  Will it happen?  Not sure.  Can it happen?  100% it can happen.

I agree becoming an above average defender (while maintaining his offense and leading a winning team) would lead to a big leap.

At the same time, I'm not sure that he's capable.  I don't think it's simply a matter of effort or commitment.

I would agree if I didn't watch him guard Steph Curry, one of the toughest guys to D up of my lifetime, about as well as I've seen anyone do it. Yes it was only about a week or work and if you're going to do it the finals would definitely be the time, but to me it offers hope.

In the playoff year in which Curry was injured and clearly playing hobbled.  Yes.

And Curry _still_ scored at an elite 58.0% TS% efficiency in that series.

[footey]

For Kyrie to take that 'next leap' he's going to have to realize a jump in numbers, either scoring more per game or in assisting more per game or both.

This is not the case, unless by numbers you also broadly meant to include advanced defensive metrics.  Which I assume you didn't, because if you did, saying 'a jump in numbers' means that you basically said 'for kyrie to get better, he's going to have to get better.'

ESPN rated Kyrie as top 16 last year and #25 this year, despite making major strides between those rankings coming out.  Let's meet in the middle and say he's #20.  How much better would Kyrie be if he became just a slightly above average defender?

Well, ESPN had Jimmy Butler at #11.  The same Jimmy Butler who played on all star team with the league MVP and DPOY... and IIRC they didn't make the conference finals a single time in a multi-year span, playing in the worst conference in history.  The same Jimmy Butler that put up great stats, but played on a #8 seed in the East and got outplayed in the clutch by the 3rd best player on our team, a guy who never has been and probably never will be an all star.

Butler is well above 'above average' at defense, but less offensively talented and much less accomplished in the playoffs than Kyrie... and we're only talking about Kyrie making a leap on D and considering nothing else...

So yeah, if Jimmy Butler can be considered a top 11 player, then CBS can help Kyrie become a top 10 player.  Will it happen?  Not sure.  Can it happen?  100% it can happen.

I agree becoming an above average defender (while maintaining his offense and leading a winning team) would lead to a big leap.

At the same time, I'm not sure that he's capable.  I don't think it's simply a matter of effort or commitment.

I would agree if I didn't watch him guard Steph Curry, one of the toughest guys to D up of my lifetime, about as well as I've seen anyone do it. Yes it was only about a week or work and if you're going to do it the finals would definitely be the time, but to me it offers hope.

The same guy got absolutely torched by Shaun Livingston, though. He played the worse defense (statistically) of any starter in the 2016 Finals, allowing opponents to shoot 8 percentage points above their normal FG%.

It is fair to criticize Kyrie's effort, but I think it's more than that. Playing defense against NBA players is very hard and requires high level skills.

Shaun Livingston is 6'7" who can post up.  That is not a good example.

[Roy H.]

For Kyrie to take that 'next leap' he's going to have to realize a jump in numbers, either scoring more per game or in assisting more per game or both.

This is not the case, unless by numbers you also broadly meant to include advanced defensive metrics.  Which I assume you didn't, because if you did, saying 'a jump in numbers' means that you basically said 'for kyrie to get better, he's going to have to get better.'

ESPN rated Kyrie as top 16 last year and #25 this year, despite making major strides between those rankings coming out.  Let's meet in the middle and say he's #20.  How much better would Kyrie be if he became just a slightly above average defender?

Well, ESPN had Jimmy Butler at #11.  The same Jimmy Butler who played on all star team with the league MVP and DPOY... and IIRC they didn't make the conference finals a single time in a multi-year span, playing in the worst conference in history.  The same Jimmy Butler that put up great stats, but played on a #8 seed in the East and got outplayed in the clutch by the 3rd best player on our team, a guy who never has been and probably never will be an all star.

Butler is well above 'above average' at defense, but less offensively talented and much less accomplished in the playoffs than Kyrie... and we're only talking about Kyrie making a leap on D and considering nothing else...

So yeah, if Jimmy Butler can be considered a top 11 player, then CBS can help Kyrie become a top 10 player.  Will it happen?  Not sure.  Can it happen?  100% it can happen.

I agree becoming an above average defender (while maintaining his offense and leading a winning team) would lead to a big leap.

At the same time, I'm not sure that he's capable.  I don't think it's simply a matter of effort or commitment.

I would agree if I didn't watch him guard Steph Curry, one of the toughest guys to D up of my lifetime, about as well as I've seen anyone do it. Yes it was only about a week or work and if you're going to do it the finals would definitely be the time, but to me it offers hope.

The same guy got absolutely torched by Shaun Livingston, though. He played the worse defense (statistically) of any starter in the 2016 Finals, allowing opponents to shoot 8 percentage points above their normal FG%.

It is fair to criticize Kyrie's effort, but I think it's more than that. Playing defense against NBA players is very hard and requires high level skills.

Shaun Livingston is 6'7" who can post up.  That is not a good example.

Why not? Shaun Livingston is tall, but he's pretty average; he shouldn't be abusing anybody.  He also shot 59% from mid-range; he's not much of a post threat.

Anyway, his defense was atrocious in that series. It makes sense, because his defense has been atrocious every year of his career, and across his playoff career as a whole.

That series makes sense to look at, though, because many claim he played good defense in the series (he didn't, at least results-wise) and because folks claim that Kyrie's poor defense is due to effort. Unless Kyrie was putting in lazy effort in the Finals, the results suggest that the problem is more fundamental than trying harder.

[RLewis35]

I think it's a bit strange that any of us are questioning if kyrie would buy in or give effort now that he's here.  This is someone who's top two teams on his list of where he wanted to play weee supposedly Boston and San Antonio.  Wanting to play for strong respected coaches whose teams consistently epitomize team basketball and who have other stars on their teams is evidence beyond a shadow of a doubt, IMO, that Kyrie is going to buy in and buy in big. This is a kid who chose to play for Duke in college - same thing - rather than somewhere where he could do whatever he wanted and coast and just be a star without the other stuff.  Every time he's made a decision on where to play he picks places with strong tradition of teamwork defense (well not recently for Duke but historically...) and excellence.

I do agree with Roy that becoming above average at defense is not simply an effort thing either - but Effort does go a long way if there are tools of any kind to work with.  I will be shocked if he doesn't improve at least (which would be almost impossible with how bad he has been).

I think Kyrie can be top 5 in the NBA - if James harden can be why not Kyrie?
Kyrie and Love (and Wade and Bosh) all sacrificed and benefited  for/from lebron.  I am betting he improves as a complete overall PG by leaving him and joining brad while maintaining his scoring efficiency and prowess. 

[saltlover]

For Kyrie to take that 'next leap' he's going to have to realize a jump in numbers, either scoring more per game or in assisting more per game or both.

This is not the case, unless by numbers you also broadly meant to include advanced defensive metrics.  Which I assume you didn't, because if you did, saying 'a jump in numbers' means that you basically said 'for kyrie to get better, he's going to have to get better.'

ESPN rated Kyrie as top 16 last year and #25 this year, despite making major strides between those rankings coming out.  Let's meet in the middle and say he's #20.  How much better would Kyrie be if he became just a slightly above average defender?

Well, ESPN had Jimmy Butler at #11.  The same Jimmy Butler who played on all star team with the league MVP and DPOY... and IIRC they didn't make the conference finals a single time in a multi-year span, playing in the worst conference in history.  The same Jimmy Butler that put up great stats, but played on a #8 seed in the East and got outplayed in the clutch by the 3rd best player on our team, a guy who never has been and probably never will be an all star.

Butler is well above 'above average' at defense, but less offensively talented and much less accomplished in the playoffs than Kyrie... and we're only talking about Kyrie making a leap on D and considering nothing else...

So yeah, if Jimmy Butler can be considered a top 11 player, then CBS can help Kyrie become a top 10 player.  Will it happen?  Not sure.  Can it happen?  100% it can happen.

I agree becoming an above average defender (while maintaining his offense and leading a winning team) would lead to a big leap.

At the same time, I'm not sure that he's capable.  I don't think it's simply a matter of effort or commitment.

I would agree if I didn't watch him guard Steph Curry, one of the toughest guys to D up of my lifetime, about as well as I've seen anyone do it. Yes it was only about a week or work and if you're going to do it the finals would definitely be the time, but to me it offers hope.

The same guy got absolutely torched by Shaun Livingston, though. He played the worse defense (statistically) of any starter in the 2016 Finals, allowing opponents to shoot 8 percentage points above their normal FG%.

It is fair to criticize Kyrie's effort, but I think it's more than that. Playing defense against NBA players is very hard and requires high level skills.

Shaun Livingston is 6'7" who can post up.  That is not a good example.

Why not? Shaun Livingston is tall, but he's pretty average; he shouldn't be abusing anybody.  He also shot 59% from mid-range; he's not much of a post threat.

Anyway, his defense was atrocious in that series. It makes sense, because his defense has been atrocious every year of his career, and across his playoff career as a whole.

That series makes sense to look at, though, because many claim he played good defense in the series (he didn't, at least results-wise) and because folks claim that Kyrie's poor defense is due to effort. Unless Kyrie was putting in lazy effort in the Finals, the results suggest that the problem is more fundamental than trying harder.

I disagree that using a series vs. the Warriors is a good way to judge virtually any defender.  The elite defenders tend to look average, and anyone average or below comes off looking pretty terrible.

That isn't to say I think Irving has been even an okay defender -- he hasn't.  I do think Stevens will often hide him on defense as he did Thomas, which never happened for Irving in Cleveland.  And when hidden, Irving won't give up nearly the size advantage that IT did, in essence making him easier to hide.  I'm also completely willing to believe Brad Stevens runs better defensive sets than Tyronn Lue, such that even when Irving is a primary defender on a PG, he won't be out on an island.

In short, while I think the Celtics will have to compensate for Kyrie, I they'll have to compensate less than for IT, and Kyrie will also look better than in Cleveland due to scheme alone, much less if he does show up with a new commitment to defense.

Also, I still hate the trade.

[green_bballers13]

For Kyrie to take that 'next leap' he's going to have to realize a jump in numbers, either scoring more per game or in assisting more per game or both.

This is not the case, unless by numbers you also broadly meant to include advanced defensive metrics.  Which I assume you didn't, because if you did, saying 'a jump in numbers' means that you basically said 'for kyrie to get better, he's going to have to get better.'

ESPN rated Kyrie as top 16 last year and #25 this year, despite making major strides between those rankings coming out.  Let's meet in the middle and say he's #20.  How much better would Kyrie be if he became just a slightly above average defender?

Well, ESPN had Jimmy Butler at #11.  The same Jimmy Butler who played on all star team with the league MVP and DPOY... and IIRC they didn't make the conference finals a single time in a multi-year span, playing in the worst conference in history.  The same Jimmy Butler that put up great stats, but played on a #8 seed in the East and got outplayed in the clutch by the 3rd best player on our team, a guy who never has been and probably never will be an all star.

Butler is well above 'above average' at defense, but less offensively talented and much less accomplished in the playoffs than Kyrie... and we're only talking about Kyrie making a leap on D and considering nothing else...

So yeah, if Jimmy Butler can be considered a top 11 player, then CBS can help Kyrie become a top 10 player.  Will it happen?  Not sure.  Can it happen?  100% it can happen.

I agree becoming an above average defender (while maintaining his offense and leading a winning team) would lead to a big leap.

At the same time, I'm not sure that he's capable.  I don't think it's simply a matter of effort or commitment.

I would agree if I didn't watch him guard Steph Curry, one of the toughest guys to D up of my lifetime, about as well as I've seen anyone do it. Yes it was only about a week or work and if you're going to do it the finals would definitely be the time, but to me it offers hope.

The same guy got absolutely torched by Shaun Livingston, though. He played the worse defense (statistically) of any starter in the 2016 Finals, allowing opponents to shoot 8 percentage points above their normal FG%.

It is fair to criticize Kyrie's effort, but I think it's more than that. Playing defense against NBA players is very hard and requires high level skills.

Shaun Livingston is 6'7" who can post up.  That is not a good example.

Why not? Shaun Livingston is tall, but he's pretty average; he shouldn't be abusing anybody.  He also shot 59% from mid-range; he's not much of a post threat.

Anyway, his defense was atrocious in that series. It makes sense, because his defense has been atrocious every year of his career, and across his playoff career as a whole.

That series makes sense to look at, though, because many claim he played good defense in the series (he didn't, at least results-wise) and because folks claim that Kyrie's poor defense is due to effort. Unless Kyrie was putting in lazy effort in the Finals, the results suggest that the problem is more fundamental than trying harder.

It seems that calling Kyrie's D atrocious has become a mission of yours. I think I get it now- you don't think he plays good defense.

Harden isn't a great defender and neither is IT, but both were top 10 players last year.

It would have been hard to predict IT's season last year. It's also not going to be easy to predict what Kyrie will do on a different team with a different philosophy and a different role.

I'm going to predict that he will be a borderline top 10 player that won't score as much as IT, but will play better D.