best article i have read on trade

[clevelandceltic]

I wish national writer would get off this Danny blew it with not getting George or Butler. That take looks worse and worse by the day but its just a line that keeps getting repeated.

If they trade for Butler on draft day or PG before FA started: 1) The Cs lose 5 - 6 mil in cap space to sign Hayward. In order to make the deal work you could still trade IT, Crowder, and Zizic. 2) To free up cap space for Hayward they have to trade Smart and AB for a player that makes maybe 3 or 4 million if you plan on signing the rest of the guys that they did.

So unless the national media thinks a team with Rozier and Brown as your starting backcourt would beat the Cavs w/ without Kyrie and or the Warriors I would like to see them raise their hands because I dont see it.

[max215]

One thing I don't understand: why do people argue that IT is likely to be hampered by his hip *and* likely to receive a $30 million per year contract? Isn't it one or the other?

I guess the argument would be that you're screwed either way.

[rollie mass]

Best article I've read on the trade:

https://www.theplayerstribune.com/isaiah-thomas-trade-celtics-cavaliers/

TPTP
WOW-that hurt-
I used to post that we should enjoy the gift of isaiah
 his genius even extends into his writing-

[greece66]

One thing I don't understand: why do people argue that IT is likely to be hampered by his hip *and* likely to receive a $30 million per year contract? Isn't it one or the other?

I guess there's still the possibility that he recovers fine this season, plays great and thus "proves" he's fine, gets his Brinks deal ... then next year reinjures the hip, signifying that he might always be susceptible to such reoccurrences of the injury.

that injury is more complicated than schroedinger's cat.

[Spilling Green Dye]

Best article I've read on the trade:

https://www.theplayerstribune.com/isaiah-thomas-trade-celtics-cavaliers/

TP for Jammer for the link, as well as you Roy for Isaiah's article.

That said, even after reading Isaiah's article I don't feel that bad for him.  I really disagree with his victim mentality of 99 out of 100 times the Owner's have the power, and the 1 time (Durant) a player has the power they are turned into the villain.  "... that says a lot about where we are as a league, and a society."

To counter Isaiah, the owners OWN the team.  Working in the NBA is a choice, and one that pays exceedingly well.  Part of being under a (lucrative) contract is that it (and you) can be traded.  Of course, a player is free to negotiate a no-trade clause if they want to, and that'd solve Isaiah's whole concern. 

Any player who is good enough to play for a couple of years is free to test the waters of free agency if they want.  Every player.  The issue fans had with Durant wasn't that he utilized free agency and left Oklahoma City, it's that he went to the team that he failed to beat, instead of taking on any other challenge.  No-one thought he couldn't do it, just that he chose the worst option for any NBA fan (except for Warrior fans).

I've never been through what Isaiah is going through, but I have lost my job before and been foreclosed on soon thereafter, so forgive me if I don't feel that bad for him.  He deserves to get paid whatever that market is willing to pay him (which is probably 200 x $100,000/year), but he must accept the relatively minor risks that come with that.

[Ed Hollison]

I agree that the trade was sensible, given Irving's age and what he's already accomplished thus far in his career. (Also, the certainty of knowing you've got Hayward in the fold, which you didn't have on draft night.)

With that said, this was not the Celtics' "only" option. Another option would have been simply to keep the roster intact this year, throw out a team of IT/Hayward/Horford/etc, and then negotiate with IT in the offseason. The worst case scenario would have been for IT to walk, in which case you're going into the 18-19 season with Marcus Smart (assuming he'd be re-signed) and Terry Rozier as your PGs, which is a step down but not a disaster. Of course, maybe the market for IT would have proved soft, which is what a lot of people believed would be the case even before the latest news on his hip, and you could still resign both him and Smart.

In that case the Celtics would have stayed competitive but still had a boatload of assets -- Nets pick, Lakers/Sac pick, Memphis pick, etc. -- to throw at Anthony Davis or whoever else when the time is right. That would have been a fine alternative, I just think I like the Irving scenario better.

[DooVoo]

I agree that the trade was sensible, given Irving's age and what he's already accomplished thus far in his career. (Also, the certainty of knowing you've got Hayward in the fold, which you didn't have on draft night.)

With that said, this was not the Celtics' "only" option. Another option would have been simply to keep the roster intact this year, throw out a team of IT/Hayward/Horford/etc, and then negotiate with IT in the offseason. The worst case scenario would have been for IT to walk, in which case you're going into the 18-19 season with Marcus Smart (assuming he'd be re-signed) and Terry Rozier as your PGs, which is a step down but not a disaster. Of course, maybe the market for IT would have proved soft, which is what a lot of people believed would be the case even before the latest news on his hip, and you could still resign both him and Smart.

In that case the Celtics would have stayed competitive but still had a boatload of assets -- Nets pick, Lakers/Sac pick, Memphis pick, etc. -- to throw at Anthony Davis or whoever else when the time is right. That would have been a fine alternative, I just think I like the Irving scenario better.

One problem. What if IT is hurt most of the year? What if he can't come back? Terry Rozier would be your PG THIS year which changes everything.

[tstorey_97]

Good article.

Big issue with "not sure if the Celtics are a better team" quote.

Better than what?

In the last two seasons the Celtics are 8-32 (4-16 each season) against the Cavs, Spurs, GSW, Rox, OKC, Toronto. I may have missed by a game or two, but, this is about right.

Last season 53-29 overall
against top teams 4-16
Thus 49-13 against the weaker teams.

Two seasons 8-32 against "good" teams. The Celtics have beefed up on weak teams and have been essentially unable to beat the six best teams. My irritation with the Celtics being referred to as the "third best team in the NBA" will be relieved when they start beating the six teams that are better than they are.

The Celtics are a far better team now. They will be .500 against these top teams this season which beats the spit out of .250. This will occur because they have assembled a balanced roster that includes  "playoff level starters" above average scoring and an athletic bench that might be pretty good by May/June.

The Rondo Bulls almost ran the Celtics out of the gym.
It took seven to beat the vaunted Bullets.
The Celtics looked like a D league team against the Cavs, it was an embarrassment.

"Are they a better team?"

Far better as they weren't that good in the first place.

 

[colincb]

Best article I've read on the trade:

https://www.theplayerstribune.com/isaiah-thomas-trade-celtics-cavaliers/

TPTP
WOW-that hurt-
I used to post that we should enjoy the gift of isaiah
 his genius even extends into his writing-

Great article. Tough to think Irving will have that connection with the region, but perhaps that's an unfair burden. We love the underdogs like IT, Brady, and Ortiz who fought their way to the top.

[Moranis]

I wish national writer would get off this Danny blew it with not getting George or Butler. That take looks worse and worse by the day but its just a line that keeps getting repeated.

If they trade for Butler on draft day or PG before FA started: 1) The Cs lose 5 - 6 mil in cap space to sign Hayward. In order to make the deal work you could still trade IT, Crowder, and Zizic. 2) To free up cap space for Hayward they have to trade Smart and AB for a player that makes maybe 3 or 4 million if you plan on signing the rest of the guys that they did.

So unless the national media thinks a team with Rozier and Brown as your starting backcourt would beat the Cavs w/ without Kyrie and or the Warriors I would like to see them raise their hands because I dont see it.

I'd rather have Butler, George, Thomas, Olynyk, Zizic, Johnson, and BKN 18 then Hayward, Irving, Tatum, Smart, Morris, and BOS 18. 

[byennie]

I wish national writer would get off this Danny blew it with not getting George or Butler. That take looks worse and worse by the day but its just a line that keeps getting repeated.

If they trade for Butler on draft day or PG before FA started: 1) The Cs lose 5 - 6 mil in cap space to sign Hayward. In order to make the deal work you could still trade IT, Crowder, and Zizic. 2) To free up cap space for Hayward they have to trade Smart and AB for a player that makes maybe 3 or 4 million if you plan on signing the rest of the guys that they did.

So unless the national media thinks a team with Rozier and Brown as your starting backcourt would beat the Cavs w/ without Kyrie and or the Warriors I would like to see them raise their hands because I dont see it.

I'd rather have Butler, George, Thomas, Olynyk, Zizic, Johnson, and BKN 18 then Hayward, Irving, Tatum, Smart, Morris, and BOS 18.

OK, but you can't. Butler, George, IT and Olynyk would make $100M next year, and more like $115M the year after that. Add $30M for Horford and we're talking $130M/$150M year just for the starting lineup. We'd be repeat luxury tax offenders trotting our half of our roster as league minimum players, paying $50M-$100M/year in tax alone.

Meanwhile, Smart, Brown and Tatum are all gone, but yeah, we have the BKN pick.

[Moranis]

I wish national writer would get off this Danny blew it with not getting George or Butler. That take looks worse and worse by the day but its just a line that keeps getting repeated.

If they trade for Butler on draft day or PG before FA started: 1) The Cs lose 5 - 6 mil in cap space to sign Hayward. In order to make the deal work you could still trade IT, Crowder, and Zizic. 2) To free up cap space for Hayward they have to trade Smart and AB for a player that makes maybe 3 or 4 million if you plan on signing the rest of the guys that they did.

So unless the national media thinks a team with Rozier and Brown as your starting backcourt would beat the Cavs w/ without Kyrie and or the Warriors I would like to see them raise their hands because I dont see it.

I'd rather have Butler, George, Thomas, Olynyk, Zizic, Johnson, and BKN 18 then Hayward, Irving, Tatum, Smart, Morris, and BOS 18.

OK, but you can't. Butler, George, IT and Olynyk would make $100M next year, and more like $115M the year after that. Add $30M for Horford and we're talking $130M/$150M year just for the starting lineup. We'd be repeat luxury tax offenders trotting our half of our roster as league minimum players, paying $50M-$100M/year in tax alone.

Meanwhile, Smart, Brown and Tatum are all gone, but yeah, we have the BKN pick.

I don't think Brown would have had to be traded to acquire Butler and George (i.e. 3, Crowder, Zeller for Butler and Bradley, Smart, and BOS 18 for George or something like that maybe Rozier or Zizic to Chicago if they needed a bit more).  I'd worry about IT and Olynyk next year, this year that team isn't in the luxury tax at all and unlike the squad we currently have is absolutely a threat to not only Cleveland but also Golden State.  I like winning and winning championships.  A team led by George and Butler is exactly the type of team we would need to have a realistic shot at a title.  Ainge was far too focused on keeping cap space and assets, that he missed out on the two best players available this summer.  We shouldn't just let him slide on that especially when we saw what Butler and George were acquired for.

[byennie]

I don't think Brown would have had to be traded to acquire Butler and George (i.e. 3, Crowder, Zeller for Butler and Bradley, Smart, and BOS 18 for George or something like that maybe Rozier or Zizic to Chicago if they needed a bit more).  I'd worry about IT and Olynyk next year, this year that team isn't in the luxury tax at all and unlike the squad we currently have is absolutely a threat to not only Cleveland but also Golden State.  I like winning and winning championships.  A team led by George and Butler is exactly the type of team we would need to have a realistic shot at a title.  Ainge was far too focused on keeping cap space and assets, that he missed out on the two best players available this summer.  We shouldn't just let him slide on that especially when we saw what Butler and George were acquired for.

How do you worry about KO next year? He was a free agent this summer already. Assuming we managed to re-sign him for $12M/year, we'd be left with about $29M for 10 players to stay under the luxury tax, and would start the season with Rozier at point guard with no backup.

You don't mortgage the future for a 1 year window of Butler and George. That's not liking winning, that's just bad management.

[mctyson]

https://www.si.com/nba/2017/09/06/kyrie-irving-trade-celtics-nets-pick-isaiah-thomas-cavs

I think everyone analyzing this trade is getting it wrong.

All reports indicate the Boston was heavily interested in Paul George.  My guess is the package would have at least been Avery, Crowder, and the 2018 Brooklyn Pick.  I have not read one report yet that the Celtics were contacted for a last offer prior to the OKC trade.  Pritchard caused this to fall through, not the Cs.

If that trade happens, this team is a core of IT-Smart-Hayward-George-Horford.  That's pretty [dang] good and a 5-some that can beat Cleveland.

So I get the "Kyrie was the last option" angle but not really.  I think Danny was willing to go into 2018 with a risky IT and see if they could get to the Finals with that group.  If so, that group was coming back.

[Big333223]

I wish national writer would get off this Danny blew it with not getting George or Butler. That take looks worse and worse by the day but its just a line that keeps getting repeated.

If they trade for Butler on draft day or PG before FA started: 1) The Cs lose 5 - 6 mil in cap space to sign Hayward. In order to make the deal work you could still trade IT, Crowder, and Zizic. 2) To free up cap space for Hayward they have to trade Smart and AB for a player that makes maybe 3 or 4 million if you plan on signing the rest of the guys that they did.

So unless the national media thinks a team with Rozier and Brown as your starting backcourt would beat the Cavs w/ without Kyrie and or the Warriors I would like to see them raise their hands because I dont see it.

This. It seems pretty clear to me that Ainge wasn't going to make a trade that involved bringing back big salary before he knew what he could get in free agency. Indy and Minny didn't want to wait. That's not in his control. And I think Ainge was right, since he basically got Hayward and Morris for Bradley and Olynyk and then still had assets to trade for an all star.

Also, fwiw, I've now heard a couple of people (Zach Lowe for sure, and I think Simmons as well) say that Boston was never let into the Paul George talks.