Washburn: Irving ecstatic about playing for Brad Stevens, preparing to be leader

[manl_lui]

Once you play for Brad Stevens, you will never regret it.

mostly true but I think Courtney Lee in recent memory was the only person who came out and spoke against him? I may need to find the source though

[ssspence]

This thread led me to this Gasper article, which I think is pretty spot on.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/celtics/2017/08/28/gasper/ZG48nwwJEuR3UM8ReneIrK/story.html?p1=Article_Recirculation_Pos1

I'd argue we give something more like Heat or Celts 2020 2nd rounder (whichever is higher), but just get it done.

No. Give them nothing.

There's a moral hazard in allowing teams to renegotiate trades that were originally negotiated in good faith. What happens if we want to send Rozier out later this year? Will the next team claim that he's "damaged goods" and demand more after we think the negotiations are complete?

If you allow one team to take advantage of you that's an advertisement for every team to take advantage of you. Danny should tell CLE to either take the deal as-is or walk.

This is just chest thumping, IMO.

1) How many more deals is Ainge really gonna do with CLE? I'm not worried about him "backing down".

2) If anything, showing a willingness to work with CLE might soften Ainge's rep. Word has long been that GMs don't want to trade with him out of fear of becoming them next Billy King. So show a little accommodation, then fleece the next team next time.

All of this basically misses the point of Gasper's article anyway. Cs fans should ditch the homer ******** and be excited to land Kyrie. Acting like this was a one-sided deal that's the absolutely max we should give up for Kyrie (considering the short term value, yet damaged goods, Isaish is) smells of that homerism.

You really wouldn't give up 1 Fab Melo (or even Jared Sullinger) to trade for Irving? Doubt that, because any smart fan should.

[kozlodoev]

All of this basically misses the point of Gasper's article anyway. Cs fans should ditch the homer ******** and be excited to land Kyrie. Acting like this was a one-sided deal that's the absolutely max we should give up for Kyrie (considering the short term value, yet damaged goods, Isaish is) smells of that homerism.

You really wouldn't give up 1 Fab Melo (or even Jared Sullinger) to trade for Irving? Doubt that, because any smart fan should.

Any pick you give up may be the next Isaiah Thomas. This argument is a dead end.

[bdm860]

Irving felt like he played with a revolving door of players and lineups

Ha, does he even know what team he's coming to?   

[playdream]

This thread led me to this Gasper article, which I think is pretty spot on.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/celtics/2017/08/28/gasper/ZG48nwwJEuR3UM8ReneIrK/story.html?p1=Article_Recirculation_Pos1

I'd argue we give something more like Heat or Celts 2020 2nd rounder (whichever is higher), but just get it done.

No. Give them nothing.

There's a moral hazard in allowing teams to renegotiate trades that were originally negotiated in good faith. What happens if we want to send Rozier out later this year? Will the next team claim that he's "damaged goods" and demand more after we think the negotiations are complete?

If you allow one team to take advantage of you that's an advertisement for every team to take advantage of you. Danny should tell CLE to either take the deal as-is or walk.

This is just chest thumping, IMO.

1) How many more deals is Ainge really gonna do with CLE? I'm not worried about him "backing down".

2) If anything, showing a willingness to work with CLE might soften Ainge's rep. Word has long been that GMs don't want to trade with him out of fear of becoming them next Billy King. So show a little accommodation, then fleece the next team next time.

All of this basically misses the point of Gasper's article anyway. Cs fans should ditch the homer ******** and be excited to land Kyrie. Acting like this was a one-sided deal that's the absolutely max we should give up for Kyrie (considering the short term value, yet damaged goods, Isaish is) smells of that homerism.

You really wouldn't give up 1 Fab Melo (or even Jared Sullinger) to trade for Irving? Doubt that, because any smart fan should.

That is not just 1 second rounder you give up , but your principle, your stance, and to further degree the teams attitude and momentum to the future, you NEVER negotiate with terrorists

[littleteapot]

This is just chest thumping, IMO.

1) How many more deals is Ainge really gonna do with CLE? I'm not worried about him "backing down".

2) If anything, showing a willingness to work with CLE might soften Ainge's rep. Word has long been that GMs don't want to trade with him out of fear of becoming them next Billy King. So show a little accommodation, then fleece the next team next time.

All of this basically misses the point of Gasper's article anyway. Cs fans should ditch the homer ******** and be excited to land Kyrie. Acting like this was a one-sided deal that's the absolutely max we should give up for Kyrie (considering the short term value, yet damaged goods, Isaish is) smells of that homerism.

You really wouldn't give up 1 Fab Melo (or even Jared Sullinger) to trade for Irving? Doubt that, because any smart fan should.

I think the C's overpaid on the initial deal, and I don't think it's because I overvalued the Cs players. I see Crowder as nothing more than filler in the trade, Zizic is a random throw-in flyer, and Isaiah is a guy I wouldn't have maxed, but just wanted one more year of great PG play. The dealbreaker was not protecting the pick for me, and I certainly don't want to give even more than a great player and a great pick if nothing new breaks about Isaiah's injury.

Also, unless something comes to light about his injury, Isaiah isn't "damaged goods". He, like many guys in the NBA is dealing with an injury, will miss time in the regular season, and has some risk going into the playoffs. The regular season really should hardly matter to either of these teams as they are almost guaranteed to be high seeds in the playoffs either way. We've already adequately compensated the Cavs for the risk, and if they want to kill a great deal for this crap, that's their problem. We shouldn't be making the deal even more tilted in their favor because of their stupidity.

[ssspence]

All of this basically misses the point of Gasper's article anyway. Cs fans should ditch the homer ******** and be excited to land Kyrie. Acting like this was a one-sided deal that's the absolutely max we should give up for Kyrie (considering the short term value, yet damaged goods, Isaish is) smells of that homerism.

You really wouldn't give up 1 Fab Melo (or even Jared Sullinger) to trade for Irving? Doubt that, because any smart fan should.

Any pick you give up may be the next Isaiah Thomas. This argument is a dead end.

Wrong. What % of Ainge picks at 20 or after have turned out as well as IT? Or ever Crowder? Point: one outcome with such a pick is more likely than then other.

[tarheelsxxiii]

All of this basically misses the point of Gasper's article anyway. Cs fans should ditch the homer ******** and be excited to land Kyrie. Acting like this was a one-sided deal that's the absolutely max we should give up for Kyrie (considering the short term value, yet damaged goods, Isaish is) smells of that homerism.

You really wouldn't give up 1 Fab Melo (or even Jared Sullinger) to trade for Irving? Doubt that, because any smart fan should.

Any pick you give up may be the next Isaiah Thomas. This argument is a dead end.

Wrong. What % of Ainge picks at 20 or after have turned out as well as IT? Or ever Crowder? Point: one outcome with such a pick is more likely than then other.

You're essentially displaying the thing you're accusing others of, just in a different form -- "Kyrieism."  You don't blindly overpay for something because it's extra shiny, especially not after you had already reached a negotiation and no need information has been presented.

[Big333223]

For all the media hubub, it seems like the people actually involved in the deal are treating it like it's going through. Kyrie seems to be preparing to come to Boston. Crowder is already out there on social media wearing Cleveland gear. The NBA store is advertising Thomas Cavaliers jerseys. I haven't seen anything said publicly about the situation from either team since the trade was announced.

I hope all this adds up to the trade goes down as originally planned and everyone moves on from a media-generated story.

[GreenShooter]

All of this basically misses the point of Gasper's article anyway. Cs fans should ditch the homer ******** and be excited to land Kyrie. Acting like this was a one-sided deal that's the absolutely max we should give up for Kyrie (considering the short term value, yet damaged goods, Isaish is) smells of that homerism.

You really wouldn't give up 1 Fab Melo (or even Jared Sullinger) to trade for Irving? Doubt that, because any smart fan should.

Any pick you give up may be the next Isaiah Thomas. This argument is a dead end.

Wrong. What % of Ainge picks at 20 or after have turned out as well as IT? Or ever Crowder? Point: one outcome with such a pick is more likely than then other.

You're essentially displaying the thing you're accusing others of, just in a different form -- "Kyrieism."  You don't blindly overpay for something because it's extra shiny, especially not after you had already reached a negotiation and no need information has been presented.

1st round picks are also valuable trade chips (draft and stash or salary fillers).

[kozlodoev]

Also, unless something comes to light about his injury, Isaiah isn't "damaged goods". He, like many guys in the NBA is dealing with an injury, will miss time in the regular season, and has some risk going into the playoffs. The regular season really should hardly matter to either of these teams as they are almost guaranteed to be high seeds in the playoffs either way. We've already adequately compensated the Cavs for the risk, and if they want to kill a great deal for this crap, that's their problem. We shouldn't be making the deal even more tilted in their favor because of their stupidity.

Yeah, the Cavs fans are funny. I've found it hard to logically reconcile all the parallel and poorly compatible threads they run in this discussion: (1) we're all about win-now, (2) however, Thomas missing a large chunk of the regular season is a concern, but still (3) we hold all the leverage because Boston will have to deal with having an unhappy Thomas in their locker room (even though he will miss most of the season).

[Phantom255x]

All this won't mean anything if Kyrie bolts in 2 years.

Need to extend him.

[Jon]

All this won't mean anything if Kyrie bolts in 2 years.

Need to extend him.

I'm not that worried about him bolting. By all accounts, players love playing for Brad. On top of that, Kyrie looks to be the alpha on a team that has a shot to go to the Finals this year. And to top it all off, the team has young talent like Brown and Tatum who could make the team even more deadly in a year or two.

If that doesn't persuade Kyrie to stick around, I don't know what will.

[TheSundanceKid]

All this won't mean anything if Kyrie bolts in 2 years.

Need to extend him.

Pure speculation. Why is he any more likely to bolt than Isaiah? As much as we all liked Isaiah, have no doubt that he'd go to another team if they offered more money.

At the very least with Kyrie you get an extra year to position ourselves as the best team in the East before he has to make that decision

[ssspence]

All of this basically misses the point of Gasper's article anyway. Cs fans should ditch the homer ******** and be excited to land Kyrie. Acting like this was a one-sided deal that's the absolutely max we should give up for Kyrie (considering the short term value, yet damaged goods, Isaish is) smells of that homerism.

You really wouldn't give up 1 Fab Melo (or even Jared Sullinger) to trade for Irving? Doubt that, because any smart fan should.

Any pick you give up may be the next Isaiah Thomas. This argument is a dead end.

Wrong. What % of Ainge picks at 20 or after have turned out as well as IT? Or ever Crowder? Point: one outcome with such a pick is more likely than then other.

You're essentially displaying the thing you're accusing others of, just in a different form -- "Kyrieism."  You don't blindly overpay for something because it's extra shiny, especially not after you had already reached a negotiation and no need information has been presented.

Again -- wrong. Stars win championships. Irving is the best player in the deal, and is a fantastic fit for the Cs timeline.

Gasper's points are legit. IT is now a highly compromised asset. Crowder is egregiously overrated by Cs fans. Ainge has been ridiculed for using the BKN picks instead of trading them for a vet. That said, isn't Tatum, Brown and Irving a pretty good haul for one useless year of Pierce and Garnett?

So regardless of how poorly CLE has handled it, if you're telling me you wouldn't trade one more late first or early second to get a young, proven star -- picks that historically have not been Ainge's strength -- then you're cutting off your nose to spite your face. As far as I'm concerned, the same applies to this "eff the Cavs" stuff. It's a waste of energy that has little to do with the future of the Cs basketball team (assuming the Cavs don't demand a good asset, which I seriously doubt they'd draw a line in the sand for).

You're obsessing about armchair GMing, instead of worrying about winning.