Ray Allen trashes the Celtics after IT trade

[byennie]

Ray is right. He was responding to Caron Butler's post. He's mad about fans trashing players for leaving, but cheering when players are sent out of town against their will.

Danny did what he thought was best, trading IT and AB.  It's not loyalty, it's business. Ray did what he thought was best, too.

Did anyone cheer when IT was traded? I saw quite the opposite.

Ray seems to have beef with fans who don't control money or personnel decisions. "Where were y'all when the team tried to trade me?" What were the fans supposed to do? Storm the castle? He can't have it both ways - he can't get into petty spats on Instagram with fans and they claim "it's a business." Either you're above it or you're not.

Yes, about half this blog seems psyched that IT was traded. we got a 25 year old MVP-level point guard that isn't 5' 9" with bad hips and nearing 30.

 FTFY

Hahaha, thats about as delusional as it gets.

Did you know that in Irving’s 6 years in the NBA he has not received one vote for MVP? NOT 1. 121 different people vote for their top 5 MVPs of the season. Kyrie has not been in any of those top 5s for his entire career. A couple of guys who actually HAVE received votes during that span? Demar Derozan, IT, Joe Johnson, David Lee, Ty Lawson, Al Jefferson, Mike Conley, Goran Dragic, Kyle Lowry. Do you think those guys were MVP candidates? Because all of them have actually been closer to an MVP than Irving.

Kyrie is without a doubt, NOT an MVP candidate. Here’s hoping he significantly improves his game so one day he might get there.

Huh? He's not a favorite, but a young All-Star switching teams, who has been played 2nd fiddle to the league's best player is absolutely in the mix.

Trying to place value on a 5th place vote is useless. You aren't listing guys who finished top 5 in the voting, they are guys who one random voter penciled in as 5th on only their ballot.

[Bucketgetter]

Ray is right. He was responding to Caron Butler's post. He's mad about fans trashing players for leaving, but cheering when players are sent out of town against their will.

Danny did what he thought was best, trading IT and AB.  It's not loyalty, it's business. Ray did what he thought was best, too.

Did anyone cheer when IT was traded? I saw quite the opposite.

Ray seems to have beef with fans who don't control money or personnel decisions. "Where were y'all when the team tried to trade me?" What were the fans supposed to do? Storm the castle? He can't have it both ways - he can't get into petty spats on Instagram with fans and they claim "it's a business." Either you're above it or you're not.

Yes, about half this blog seems psyched that IT was traded. we got a 25 year old MVP-level point guard that isn't 5' 9" with bad hips and nearing 30.

 FTFY

Hahaha, thats about as delusional as it gets.

Did you know that in Irving’s 6 years in the NBA he has not received one vote for MVP? NOT 1. 121 different people vote for their top 5 MVPs of the season. Kyrie has not been in any of those top 5s for his entire career. A couple of guys who actually HAVE received votes during that span? Demar Derozan, IT, Joe Johnson, David Lee, Ty Lawson, Al Jefferson, Mike Conley, Goran Dragic, Kyle Lowry. Do you think those guys were MVP candidates? Because all of them have actually been closer to an MVP than Irving.

Kyrie is without a doubt, NOT an MVP candidate. Here’s hoping he significantly improves his game so one day he might get there.

I wonder why that is. Perhaps it's because in his first three years in the league he was 21 years old or younger on terrible lottery teams with hardly any talent, and in his last three years in the league he's shared the court with the best player of the current generation and another perennial All-Star type.

Besides, I said he's "MVP-level," not that he was a current MVP candidate. I fully expect him to make a jump in Boston under Stevens and in a better overall environment.

Well, you can’t have it both ways. You cant say he didn’t have enough talent on his team, and then say he has too much talent. This isn’t Goldilocks and the 3 bears. You’re not always going to have it juuuusstt right. Giannis finished in the voting last year as 21/22 year old, and the rest of his team was awful. Westbrook actually won it with a terrible supporting cast. Both KD and Curry finished in the voting, and the year before that Draymond did, and the year before that Klay did. All of them have either gotten votes or won it, and they are playing with 3/4 all stars. Wade was also able to finish in the voting multiple times playing with Lebron in Miami.

Also you would think that if Kyrie really was an “MVP level” player that he would have received at least 1 vote during his career. Given that in any given year 10-15 players get voted for, when in reality only a couple of them are actually in the MVP conversation, puts Kyrie even further away from being MVP level.

Naw, because MVP voting is more political and a popularity contest than a true competition for the most valuable player. The fact that Kyle Lowry, Demar Derozan, Joe Johnson, David Lee, Ty Lawson, Al Jefferson, Mike Conley, and Goran Dragic all received MVP votes at one time or another just proves the fact that this is a terrible indicator of an MVP-level player and is pretty much just a popularity contest.

I easily take Kyrie over every single one of them in those years they were voted. Lowry would be the only one that might be borderline.

As for IT being on that list, he actually had a legit claim for his season due to his high levels of both productivity and efficiency.

As for your other comparisons:

- Giannis' team this past year had much, much more overall talent than those pre-Lebron Kyrie Cavs teams. The second best player on those teams was Dion Waiters, which is pretty terrible.

- Westbrook, KD, and Curry are all in their primes and are overall better than Kyrie. No qualms there, but the fact that they received MVP votes and Kyrie didn't does not mean he won't be an MVP-level player this coming season.

Overall, using MVP votes received as your baseline is incredibly fallacious due to what I pointed out above. It's pretty crazy to argue that Al Jefferson and Ty Lawson were at one time considered more of an MVP-level talent than Kyrie. That's just non-sense.

A better indicator would be comparing him to a recent MVP-level player in a similar context, such as IT last year. Do you not think Kyrie can have a similarly excellent year in Boston this coming season as IT had last season? I think that's a pretty resounding "yes," and I even think he'll exceed IT's best season when defense and overall wins are considered.

So my point was if all those clearly not MVP-level players (Big Al, Ty Lawson, David Lee) have actually received votes in the MVP voting and Kyrie hasn’t, how can you call him MVP Level. If you want to dismiss the MVP voting as a popularity contest that’s fine but 1. Kyrie is much more popular than those guys and 2. Don’t use "MVP Level Player” to describe Kyrie if you don’t like the MVP voting. Because you brought that up and called him that, not me. Call him something else that doesn’t include MVP.

As far as predicting how Kyrie does in Boston, that’s fine and I think he definitely will succeed, but I don’t judge him on how I think he will do with Boston. I judge him on the large sample size of 6 seasons he has already had in the league, which leads me to conclude that he is nowhere near MVP level.

But like I said earlier, I really hope he improves under Stevens and gets to that level.

[jpotter33]

IT doesn't owe Boston anything, just as Danny doesn't owe IT anything. The only things each should be concerned with is what is best for themselves (in Danny's case the Celtics).

We agree here. But, that's not the attitude that leads people to burn jerseys, make threats, label guys "Judas" and traitor, etc.

True.

Granted, I think Allen's situation (and by extension Durant) is a bit different given their contexts.

[jpotter33]

Ray is right. He was responding to Caron Butler's post. He's mad about fans trashing players for leaving, but cheering when players are sent out of town against their will.

Danny did what he thought was best, trading IT and AB.  It's not loyalty, it's business. Ray did what he thought was best, too.

Did anyone cheer when IT was traded? I saw quite the opposite.

Ray seems to have beef with fans who don't control money or personnel decisions. "Where were y'all when the team tried to trade me?" What were the fans supposed to do? Storm the castle? He can't have it both ways - he can't get into petty spats on Instagram with fans and they claim "it's a business." Either you're above it or you're not.

Yes, about half this blog seems psyched that IT was traded. we got a 25 year old MVP-level point guard that isn't 5' 9" with bad hips and nearing 30.

 FTFY

Hahaha, thats about as delusional as it gets.

Did you know that in Irving’s 6 years in the NBA he has not received one vote for MVP? NOT 1. 121 different people vote for their top 5 MVPs of the season. Kyrie has not been in any of those top 5s for his entire career. A couple of guys who actually HAVE received votes during that span? Demar Derozan, IT, Joe Johnson, David Lee, Ty Lawson, Al Jefferson, Mike Conley, Goran Dragic, Kyle Lowry. Do you think those guys were MVP candidates? Because all of them have actually been closer to an MVP than Irving.

Kyrie is without a doubt, NOT an MVP candidate. Here’s hoping he significantly improves his game so one day he might get there.

I wonder why that is. Perhaps it's because in his first three years in the league he was 21 years old or younger on terrible lottery teams with hardly any talent, and in his last three years in the league he's shared the court with the best player of the current generation and another perennial All-Star type.

Besides, I said he's "MVP-level," not that he was a current MVP candidate. I fully expect him to make a jump in Boston under Stevens and in a better overall environment.

Well, you can’t have it both ways. You cant say he didn’t have enough talent on his team, and then say he has too much talent. This isn’t Goldilocks and the 3 bears. You’re not always going to have it juuuusstt right. Giannis finished in the voting last year as 21/22 year old, and the rest of his team was awful. Westbrook actually won it with a terrible supporting cast. Both KD and Curry finished in the voting, and the year before that Draymond did, and the year before that Klay did. All of them have either gotten votes or won it, and they are playing with 3/4 all stars. Wade was also able to finish in the voting multiple times playing with Lebron in Miami.

Also you would think that if Kyrie really was an “MVP level” player that he would have received at least 1 vote during his career. Given that in any given year 10-15 players get voted for, when in reality only a couple of them are actually in the MVP conversation, puts Kyrie even further away from being MVP level.

Naw, because MVP voting is more political and a popularity contest than a true competition for the most valuable player. The fact that Kyle Lowry, Demar Derozan, Joe Johnson, David Lee, Ty Lawson, Al Jefferson, Mike Conley, and Goran Dragic all received MVP votes at one time or another just proves the fact that this is a terrible indicator of an MVP-level player and is pretty much just a popularity contest.

I easily take Kyrie over every single one of them in those years they were voted. Lowry would be the only one that might be borderline.

As for IT being on that list, he actually had a legit claim for his season due to his high levels of both productivity and efficiency.

As for your other comparisons:

- Giannis' team this past year had much, much more overall talent than those pre-Lebron Kyrie Cavs teams. The second best player on those teams was Dion Waiters, which is pretty terrible.

- Westbrook, KD, and Curry are all in their primes and are overall better than Kyrie. No qualms there, but the fact that they received MVP votes and Kyrie didn't does not mean he won't be an MVP-level player this coming season.

Overall, using MVP votes received as your baseline is incredibly fallacious due to what I pointed out above. It's pretty crazy to argue that Al Jefferson and Ty Lawson were at one time considered more of an MVP-level talent than Kyrie. That's just non-sense.

A better indicator would be comparing him to a recent MVP-level player in a similar context, such as IT last year. Do you not think Kyrie can have a similarly excellent year in Boston this coming season as IT had last season? I think that's a pretty resounding "yes," and I even think he'll exceed IT's best season when defense and overall wins are considered.

So my point was if all those clearly not MVP-level players (Big Al, Ty Lawson, David Lee) have actually received votes in the MVP voting and Kyrie hasn’t, how can you call him MVP Level. If you want to dismiss the MVP voting as a popularity contest that’s fine but 1. Kyrie is much more popular than those guys and 2. Don’t use "MVP Level Player” to describe Kyrie if you don’t like the MVP voting. Because you brought that up and called him that, not me. Call him something else that doesn’t include MVP.

As far as predicting how Kyrie does in Boston, that’s fine and I think he definitely will succeed, but I don’t judge him on how I think he will do with Boston. I judge him on the large sample size of 6 seasons he has already had in the league, which leads me to conclude that he is nowhere near MVP level.

But like I said earlier, I really hope he improves under Stevens and gets to that level.

Fair enough.

I'm still going to call him an MVP-level player, though. 

[Bucketgetter]

Ray is right. He was responding to Caron Butler's post. He's mad about fans trashing players for leaving, but cheering when players are sent out of town against their will.

Danny did what he thought was best, trading IT and AB.  It's not loyalty, it's business. Ray did what he thought was best, too.

Did anyone cheer when IT was traded? I saw quite the opposite.

Ray seems to have beef with fans who don't control money or personnel decisions. "Where were y'all when the team tried to trade me?" What were the fans supposed to do? Storm the castle? He can't have it both ways - he can't get into petty spats on Instagram with fans and they claim "it's a business." Either you're above it or you're not.

Yes, about half this blog seems psyched that IT was traded. we got a 25 year old MVP-level point guard that isn't 5' 9" with bad hips and nearing 30.

 FTFY

Hahaha, thats about as delusional as it gets.

Did you know that in Irving’s 6 years in the NBA he has not received one vote for MVP? NOT 1. 121 different people vote for their top 5 MVPs of the season. Kyrie has not been in any of those top 5s for his entire career. A couple of guys who actually HAVE received votes during that span? Demar Derozan, IT, Joe Johnson, David Lee, Ty Lawson, Al Jefferson, Mike Conley, Goran Dragic, Kyle Lowry. Do you think those guys were MVP candidates? Because all of them have actually been closer to an MVP than Irving.

Kyrie is without a doubt, NOT an MVP candidate. Here’s hoping he significantly improves his game so one day he might get there.

Huh? He's not a favorite, but a young All-Star switching teams, who has been played 2nd fiddle to the league's best player is absolutely in the mix.

Trying to place value on a 5th place vote is useless. You aren't listing guys who finished top 5 in the voting, they are guys who one random voter penciled in as 5th on only their ballot.

If you call him an MVP level player that means you think he already is one. Not that he will be in Boston this upcoming year if he improves. My point is that he hasn’t been one for 6 years in the league, with or without Lebron. While other players who either played with Lebron or were young on a team with no talent were actually MVP level.

And if its so easy for just 1 random voter to vote for a guy like Ty Lawson 5th on his ballot, than Kyrie surely would have got some votes. Except he hasn’t. So Kyrie hasn’t even sniffed the MVP if all these random, average guys are actually getting voted for. Again, that’s not saying that Kyrie will never be MVP level. If he improves under Stevens than he definitely can be.

[Bucketgetter]

Ray is right. He was responding to Caron Butler's post. He's mad about fans trashing players for leaving, but cheering when players are sent out of town against their will.

Danny did what he thought was best, trading IT and AB.  It's not loyalty, it's business. Ray did what he thought was best, too.

Did anyone cheer when IT was traded? I saw quite the opposite.

Ray seems to have beef with fans who don't control money or personnel decisions. "Where were y'all when the team tried to trade me?" What were the fans supposed to do? Storm the castle? He can't have it both ways - he can't get into petty spats on Instagram with fans and they claim "it's a business." Either you're above it or you're not.

Yes, about half this blog seems psyched that IT was traded. we got a 25 year old MVP-level point guard that isn't 5' 9" with bad hips and nearing 30.

 FTFY

Hahaha, thats about as delusional as it gets.

Did you know that in Irving’s 6 years in the NBA he has not received one vote for MVP? NOT 1. 121 different people vote for their top 5 MVPs of the season. Kyrie has not been in any of those top 5s for his entire career. A couple of guys who actually HAVE received votes during that span? Demar Derozan, IT, Joe Johnson, David Lee, Ty Lawson, Al Jefferson, Mike Conley, Goran Dragic, Kyle Lowry. Do you think those guys were MVP candidates? Because all of them have actually been closer to an MVP than Irving.

Kyrie is without a doubt, NOT an MVP candidate. Here’s hoping he significantly improves his game so one day he might get there.

I wonder why that is. Perhaps it's because in his first three years in the league he was 21 years old or younger on terrible lottery teams with hardly any talent, and in his last three years in the league he's shared the court with the best player of the current generation and another perennial All-Star type.

Besides, I said he's "MVP-level," not that he was a current MVP candidate. I fully expect him to make a jump in Boston under Stevens and in a better overall environment.

Well, you can’t have it both ways. You cant say he didn’t have enough talent on his team, and then say he has too much talent. This isn’t Goldilocks and the 3 bears. You’re not always going to have it juuuusstt right. Giannis finished in the voting last year as 21/22 year old, and the rest of his team was awful. Westbrook actually won it with a terrible supporting cast. Both KD and Curry finished in the voting, and the year before that Draymond did, and the year before that Klay did. All of them have either gotten votes or won it, and they are playing with 3/4 all stars. Wade was also able to finish in the voting multiple times playing with Lebron in Miami.

Also you would think that if Kyrie really was an “MVP level” player that he would have received at least 1 vote during his career. Given that in any given year 10-15 players get voted for, when in reality only a couple of them are actually in the MVP conversation, puts Kyrie even further away from being MVP level.

Naw, because MVP voting is more political and a popularity contest than a true competition for the most valuable player. The fact that Kyle Lowry, Demar Derozan, Joe Johnson, David Lee, Ty Lawson, Al Jefferson, Mike Conley, and Goran Dragic all received MVP votes at one time or another just proves the fact that this is a terrible indicator of an MVP-level player and is pretty much just a popularity contest.

I easily take Kyrie over every single one of them in those years they were voted. Lowry would be the only one that might be borderline.

As for IT being on that list, he actually had a legit claim for his season due to his high levels of both productivity and efficiency.

As for your other comparisons:

- Giannis' team this past year had much, much more overall talent than those pre-Lebron Kyrie Cavs teams. The second best player on those teams was Dion Waiters, which is pretty terrible.

- Westbrook, KD, and Curry are all in their primes and are overall better than Kyrie. No qualms there, but the fact that they received MVP votes and Kyrie didn't does not mean he won't be an MVP-level player this coming season.

Overall, using MVP votes received as your baseline is incredibly fallacious due to what I pointed out above. It's pretty crazy to argue that Al Jefferson and Ty Lawson were at one time considered more of an MVP-level talent than Kyrie. That's just non-sense.

A better indicator would be comparing him to a recent MVP-level player in a similar context, such as IT last year. Do you not think Kyrie can have a similarly excellent year in Boston this coming season as IT had last season? I think that's a pretty resounding "yes," and I even think he'll exceed IT's best season when defense and overall wins are considered.

So my point was if all those clearly not MVP-level players (Big Al, Ty Lawson, David Lee) have actually received votes in the MVP voting and Kyrie hasn’t, how can you call him MVP Level. If you want to dismiss the MVP voting as a popularity contest that’s fine but 1. Kyrie is much more popular than those guys and 2. Don’t use "MVP Level Player” to describe Kyrie if you don’t like the MVP voting. Because you brought that up and called him that, not me. Call him something else that doesn’t include MVP.

As far as predicting how Kyrie does in Boston, that’s fine and I think he definitely will succeed, but I don’t judge him on how I think he will do with Boston. I judge him on the large sample size of 6 seasons he has already had in the league, which leads me to conclude that he is nowhere near MVP level.

But like I said earlier, I really hope he improves under Stevens and gets to that level.

Fair enough.

I'm still going to call him an MVP-level player, though. 

Go ahead. TP, and here’s hoping he gets there.

[byennie]

So my point was if all those clearly not MVP-level players (Big Al, Ty Lawson, David Lee) have actually received votes in the MVP voting and Kyrie hasn’t, how can you call him MVP Level. If you want to dismiss the MVP voting as a popularity contest that’s fine but 1. Kyrie is much more popular than those guys and 2. Don’t use "MVP Level Player” to describe Kyrie if you don’t like the MVP voting. Because you brought that up and called him that, not me. Call him something else that doesn’t include MVP.

As far as predicting how Kyrie does in Boston, that’s fine and I think he definitely will succeed, but I don’t judge him on how I think he will do with Boston. I judge him on the large sample size of 6 seasons he has already had in the league, which leads me to conclude that he is nowhere near MVP level.

But like I said earlier, I really hope he improves under Stevens and gets to that level.

You picked a metric (5th place MVP votes) and then showed that it's worthless (because guys like David Lee get random votes). That doesn't lead to "Kyrie can't even get a 5th place vote" unless you're already working under and assumption.

It just leads to... "5th place MVP votes are meaningless".

Also, rookies don't get MVP votes, and teammates of LeBron don't either. There goes half his career.

[mqtcelticsfan]

I feel like 80% of the posts in this thread pretty much prove Allen's entire point. Sports fandom tends to bring out these insane views from people that don't exist in any other setting. We start talking about loyalty in a workplace where players often go years at a time with no ability to control what happens to them and are then somehow expected to accept that? I fully understand that these are guys getting paid outrageous sums to play basketball, but they're paid what they're owed based on the demand for the services they provide to the teams. Just because a bunch of us want them to play for our team doesn't mean they should have to or that they owe it to us to do so.

[jpotter33]

Ray is right. He was responding to Caron Butler's post. He's mad about fans trashing players for leaving, but cheering when players are sent out of town against their will.

Danny did what he thought was best, trading IT and AB.  It's not loyalty, it's business. Ray did what he thought was best, too.

Did anyone cheer when IT was traded? I saw quite the opposite.

Ray seems to have beef with fans who don't control money or personnel decisions. "Where were y'all when the team tried to trade me?" What were the fans supposed to do? Storm the castle? He can't have it both ways - he can't get into petty spats on Instagram with fans and they claim "it's a business." Either you're above it or you're not.

Yes, about half this blog seems psyched that IT was traded. we got a 25 year old MVP-level point guard that isn't 5' 9" with bad hips and nearing 30.

 FTFY

Hahaha, thats about as delusional as it gets.

Did you know that in Irving’s 6 years in the NBA he has not received one vote for MVP? NOT 1. 121 different people vote for their top 5 MVPs of the season. Kyrie has not been in any of those top 5s for his entire career. A couple of guys who actually HAVE received votes during that span? Demar Derozan, IT, Joe Johnson, David Lee, Ty Lawson, Al Jefferson, Mike Conley, Goran Dragic, Kyle Lowry. Do you think those guys were MVP candidates? Because all of them have actually been closer to an MVP than Irving.

Kyrie is without a doubt, NOT an MVP candidate. Here’s hoping he significantly improves his game so one day he might get there.

I wonder why that is. Perhaps it's because in his first three years in the league he was 21 years old or younger on terrible lottery teams with hardly any talent, and in his last three years in the league he's shared the court with the best player of the current generation and another perennial All-Star type.

Besides, I said he's "MVP-level," not that he was a current MVP candidate. I fully expect him to make a jump in Boston under Stevens and in a better overall environment.

Well, you can’t have it both ways. You cant say he didn’t have enough talent on his team, and then say he has too much talent. This isn’t Goldilocks and the 3 bears. You’re not always going to have it juuuusstt right. Giannis finished in the voting last year as 21/22 year old, and the rest of his team was awful. Westbrook actually won it with a terrible supporting cast. Both KD and Curry finished in the voting, and the year before that Draymond did, and the year before that Klay did. All of them have either gotten votes or won it, and they are playing with 3/4 all stars. Wade was also able to finish in the voting multiple times playing with Lebron in Miami.

Also you would think that if Kyrie really was an “MVP level” player that he would have received at least 1 vote during his career. Given that in any given year 10-15 players get voted for, when in reality only a couple of them are actually in the MVP conversation, puts Kyrie even further away from being MVP level.

Naw, because MVP voting is more political and a popularity contest than a true competition for the most valuable player. The fact that Kyle Lowry, Demar Derozan, Joe Johnson, David Lee, Ty Lawson, Al Jefferson, Mike Conley, and Goran Dragic all received MVP votes at one time or another just proves the fact that this is a terrible indicator of an MVP-level player and is pretty much just a popularity contest.

I easily take Kyrie over every single one of them in those years they were voted. Lowry would be the only one that might be borderline.

As for IT being on that list, he actually had a legit claim for his season due to his high levels of both productivity and efficiency.

As for your other comparisons:

- Giannis' team this past year had much, much more overall talent than those pre-Lebron Kyrie Cavs teams. The second best player on those teams was Dion Waiters, which is pretty terrible.

- Westbrook, KD, and Curry are all in their primes and are overall better than Kyrie. No qualms there, but the fact that they received MVP votes and Kyrie didn't does not mean he won't be an MVP-level player this coming season.

Overall, using MVP votes received as your baseline is incredibly fallacious due to what I pointed out above. It's pretty crazy to argue that Al Jefferson and Ty Lawson were at one time considered more of an MVP-level talent than Kyrie. That's just non-sense.

A better indicator would be comparing him to a recent MVP-level player in a similar context, such as IT last year. Do you not think Kyrie can have a similarly excellent year in Boston this coming season as IT had last season? I think that's a pretty resounding "yes," and I even think he'll exceed IT's best season when defense and overall wins are considered.

So my point was if all those clearly not MVP-level players (Big Al, Ty Lawson, David Lee) have actually received votes in the MVP voting and Kyrie hasn’t, how can you call him MVP Level. If you want to dismiss the MVP voting as a popularity contest that’s fine but 1. Kyrie is much more popular than those guys and 2. Don’t use "MVP Level Player” to describe Kyrie if you don’t like the MVP voting. Because you brought that up and called him that, not me. Call him something else that doesn’t include MVP.

As far as predicting how Kyrie does in Boston, that’s fine and I think he definitely will succeed, but I don’t judge him on how I think he will do with Boston. I judge him on the large sample size of 6 seasons he has already had in the league, which leads me to conclude that he is nowhere near MVP level.

But like I said earlier, I really hope he improves under Stevens and gets to that level.

Fair enough.

I'm still going to call him an MVP-level player, though. 

Go ahead. TP, and here’s hoping he gets there.

TP back at you for a good, healthy discussion.

[dmopower]

Ray Allen is right.

Still hate what he did, but he is right.

 Agreed.

[Bucketgetter]

So my point was if all those clearly not MVP-level players (Big Al, Ty Lawson, David Lee) have actually received votes in the MVP voting and Kyrie hasn’t, how can you call him MVP Level. If you want to dismiss the MVP voting as a popularity contest that’s fine but 1. Kyrie is much more popular than those guys and 2. Don’t use "MVP Level Player” to describe Kyrie if you don’t like the MVP voting. Because you brought that up and called him that, not me. Call him something else that doesn’t include MVP.

As far as predicting how Kyrie does in Boston, that’s fine and I think he definitely will succeed, but I don’t judge him on how I think he will do with Boston. I judge him on the large sample size of 6 seasons he has already had in the league, which leads me to conclude that he is nowhere near MVP level.

But like I said earlier, I really hope he improves under Stevens and gets to that level.

You picked a metric (5th place MVP votes) and then showed that it's worthless (because guys like David Lee get random votes). That doesn't lead to "Kyrie can't even get a 5th place vote" unless you're already working under and assumption.

It just leads to... "5th place MVP votes are meaningless".

Also, rookies don't get MVP votes, and teammates of LeBron don't either. There goes half his career.

Except Kyrie hasn’t ever gotten a 5th place vote (or 4th, 3rd, 2nd, 1st) so it does lead there...

And “Teammates of Lebron don’t get votes either” is wrong too since D Wade finished in the voting multiple times while playing with Lebron.

Also I didn’t pick the metric of MVP votes. That would simply be the metric you use when discussing whether or not a player is MVP level.

[Bobshot]

The story I read said Doc told Allen he had been traded, Memphis rescinded the trade, and Doc wound up with egg on his face.

Speaking of rescinded trades. I hope this doesn't happen with IT-Irving. There will be hard feelings on all sides. Silver may need to step in and arbitrate.

[Tr1boy]

Ray Allen is right.

Still hate what he did, but he is right.

Not really....

Ray Allen was offered a contract to stay...instead he left to join the team that beat the Celts in the ECF

This was not about business... It was for selfish, me 1st reasons.

KD situation kind of the same but more about making it "easy" to win/buy a championship

An organization/team is bigger than one player or personnel... It is unfair but the way it is....

And its not like the Celts were 1st in line , to make this deal work. They waited..and waited...and when the Cavs couldnt get anything worthwhile...approached the Celts.  Danny had extra assets/flexibility to complete this unusual trade.  But this is for a top 5 pg with medals,  a championship, 3 pt contest winner, all star game mvp etc.  He couldnt pass up the opportunitu even though , short term things will be awkward

[Tr1boy]

Its funny how the two "guiltys" Allen and Lebron .... Were the 1st ones making a noise about this trade

Lebron better stay or worst case leave some assets for the Cavs (via trade)...bc he will never will be welcomed back to Cleveland if he leaves again

[crimson_stallion]

Ray is right. He was responding to Caron Butler's post. He's mad about fans trashing players for leaving, but cheering when players are sent out of town against their will.

Danny did what he thought was best, trading IT and AB.  It's not loyalty, it's business. Ray did what he thought was best, too.

Did anyone cheer when IT was traded? I saw quite the opposite.

Ray seems to have beef with fans who don't control money or personnel decisions. "Where were y'all when the team tried to trade me?" What were the fans supposed to do? Storm the castle? He can't have it both ways - he can't get into petty spats on Instagram with fans and they claim "it's a business." Either you're above it or you're not.

Yes, about half this blog seems psyched that IT was traded.

I think you are grossly mistaken.

I think just about everybody on this blog appreciates the hell out of IT and everything he did for the team, and I think just about everybody here is hurt and perhaps even a little bit heartbroken to see him go. 

However at the same time I think many people on this board recognise that objectively speaking, making this trade is in the best interests of the team, and therefore Danny really has no choice but to do it. 

When you have an opportunity to bring in a 25 year old superstar who has 2-3 years remaining on a very good value contract, them as a GM you have to make that deal.  If the only way to make the deal is to trade out your existing star who is 28 years old, injured and has an expiring contract (after which he WILL demand a max contract) then objectively speaking, that trade is a no brainer.

It's not a no brainer once you bring emotions into it, but as a GM you can't do that if you want to be successful.   We are where we are today because Danny was able to put his emotions aside and trade away two Celtics legends (Pierce and KG) for a stack of draft picks and some nobodies.   That move was also hurtful at the time and I'm sure it was very difficult for Ainge to make, emotionally speaking, but he had to do it - and it turned out to be arguably the best decision (objectively speaking) for the franchise that Ainge has ever made.

I hate seeing Thomas go.  I feel like he was stabbed in the back after all he did for the team.  But at the same time I love seeing Kyrie become a Celtic and thinking of the possibilities that brings moving forward.  And at least Danny did the best he could for Thomas - he didn't insult him by trading him to some garbage team in return for some half decent young prospect who may never amount to anything.  He traded him to a team that's guaranteed to make the ECF, where he gets to play compete for a title alongside the best player in the world, in return for a legitimate superstar. 

So as much as the trade does suck for Thomas, if Ainge HAD to trade him somewhere, he really couldn't have handpicked a better place for Thomas to end up.