Feelings about the trade

[perks-a-beast]

I'm shocked, shocked I say, to find all this criticism of the draft savant Danny Ainge on this board.

Time, as they say, is always the great vindicator.

Draft savant is a bit extreme. Out of his last 20 selections, AB and Smart are really the only ones that stick out.

[bellerephon]

I think there's a bit of sarcasm there...

[bdm860]

Not sure which of the 100 Fultz trade threads to post in, but here goes...

I remember someone on this blog speculated years ago that Danny doesn't like to draft guys who have knee problems, with the examples being:

The C's chose to pass on acquiring Brandon Roy in 2006, instead trading #7 pick (Foye) and LaFrentz for Telfair and Ratliff, and then having the #7 pick (Foye) they just traded away being immediately traded for Brandon Roy.

As well as the speculation (though highly disputed) that Danny would have been one of the few GMs to draft Durant over Oden in '07.

This speculation has alse been supported by Austin Ainge:

According to Austin Ainge, the son of Celtics president Danny Ainge and team director of player personnel, the Celtics’ medical staff told the team not to draft Greg Oden or Brandon Roy. Both players have had knee problems that shortened/ruined their careers. Oden has only played in 105 career games since being drafted in 2007, while Roy had five really good seasons, missed a year, attempted a comeback, and then retired for good.

And now we have the C's not drafting Fultz who also has had knee problems.

Maybe this trade is partially driven by concern for Fultz's knee?

[Casperian]

I hear you and I'm not the biggest Butler fan.

On the other hand, if you're a GM you can't just say "We will build a team to win in 2022 because Warriors." Players get hurt, or have changes of heart....there are more alleged "dynasties" that have flamed out in 3 years than ones who've won five championships in a row.

I'm not even sure that team is beating the Warriors without Durant.

Still, no matter how you slice it, whether we want to go all in now or build for 2022 and beyond, Danny lost this deal. He should not have compromised the chance at an even bigger return on our biggest asset for a chance at Jimmy Butler.

We had what Philly wanted, we had all the leverage.
Do you see Philly fans complaining that they gave up too much? No, they're celebrating. But the thing is, they should be unsure whether this was a good deal or not. They should be wary whether this deal works out in the long-term, because they receive the single biggest perceived value in this deal. It should hurt them.

That right there is the clearest indicator of how badly Danny fumbled this trade.

[spikelovetheCelts]

I wanted Fultz too.

But Danny apparently has promised Horford, IT , CBS ,  maybe Butler and Hayward he is serious about winning rigth now .   

That has to be the answer .   

IT , Horford , and Butler probally don't want to wait till Fultz grows up ,  or Wiggins was for Cavs ,  Tatum can come in and play Kellys spot pretty soon or Zizic .

I don't know if this plan will work out without the help of the basketball gods LUCK somehow .

These are win now players ....like Hayward in their prime ....you only have a short window to keep them together at the hieghts of their careers. 

so .....I guess all we can do is go along .......Danny is in charge ........he obviously has made promises to players to win NOW ....Durrant or Lebron be [dang]ed

Tatum is what I see too with Heyward. I have been to some Duke Games he is an awesome Talent. We need a scorer we have IT for pg.

[Silent Storm]

Not sure which of the 100 Fultz trade threads to post in, but here goes...

I remember someone on this blog speculated years ago that Danny doesn't like to draft guys who have knee problems, with the examples being:

The C's chose to pass on acquiring Brandon Roy in 2006, instead trading #7 pick (Foye) and LaFrentz for Telfair and Ratliff, and then having the #7 pick (Foye) they just traded away being immediately traded for Brandon Roy.

As well as the speculation (though highly disputed) that Danny would have been one of the few GMs to draft Durant over Oden in '07.

This speculation has alse been supported by Austin Ainge:

According to Austin Ainge, the son of Celtics president Danny Ainge and team director of player personnel, the Celtics’ medical staff told the team not to draft Greg Oden or Brandon Roy. Both players have had knee problems that shortened/ruined their careers. Oden has only played in 105 career games since being drafted in 2007, while Roy had five really good seasons, missed a year, attempted a comeback, and then retired for good.

And now we have the C's not drafting Fultz who also has had knee problems.

Maybe this trade is partially driven by concern for Fultz's knee?

This is a great point that is often overlooked, it's very possible that it was a factor.

[jambr380]

We had what Philly wanted, we had all the leverage.
Do you see Philly fans complaining that they gave up too much? No, they're celebrating. But the thing is, they should be unsure whether this was a good deal or not. They should be wary whether this deal works out in the long-term, because they receive the single biggest perceived value in this deal. It should hurt them.

That right there is the clearest indicator of how badly Danny fumbled this trade.

I said this in another thread earlier, but if we were at #3 and we traded the BKN '18 pick along with the #3 to move up and grab Fultz, this place would be going way more crazy than it is now. Once people step back from all the time/effort they put into wanting Fultz, they will see that Danny and Brad are getting a player they would rather have and also getting another top 5 pick. It's not the immediate home run we were all looking for, but it could pay great dividends in the end.

[Boris Badenov]

I hear you and I'm not the biggest Butler fan.

On the other hand, if you're a GM you can't just say "We will build a team to win in 2022 because Warriors." Players get hurt, or have changes of heart....there are more alleged "dynasties" that have flamed out in 3 years than ones who've won five championships in a row.

I'm not even sure that team is beating the Warriors without Durant.

Still, no matter how you slice it, whether we want to go all in now or build for 2022 and beyond, Danny lost this deal. He should not have compromised the chance at an even bigger return on our biggest asset for a chance at Jimmy Butler.

We had what Philly wanted, we had all the leverage.
Do you see Philly fans complaining that they gave up too much? No, they're celebrating. But the thing is, they should be unsure whether this was a good deal or not. They should be wary whether this deal works out in the long-term, because they receive the single biggest perceived value in this deal. It should hurt them.

That right there is the clearest indicator of how badly Danny fumbled this trade.

I'll reserve judgment. There have been a lot of deals he made that were criticized at the time...the Brooklyn trade being one of them, as an example.

[jambr380]

Also, I have seen a number of people using the #3 AND the Lakers/Sac pick as the foundation for a Butler/George trade and I am here to tell you that is not happening. If we were going to deal both of those assets for one of those players, we would have just traded the #1 pick.

If we do trade for Butler, George, or whoever, only one of those picks gets sent out and we still get our opportunity at another high draft pick.

[Boris Badenov]

I'm shocked, shocked I say, to find all this criticism of the draft savant Danny Ainge on this board.

Time, as they say, is always the great vindicator.

Darnit. I must have nodded off and missed the part where we know who Danny drafted and how good his career ended up being.

[Casperian]

I hear you and I'm not the biggest Butler fan.

On the other hand, if you're a GM you can't just say "We will build a team to win in 2022 because Warriors." Players get hurt, or have changes of heart....there are more alleged "dynasties" that have flamed out in 3 years than ones who've won five championships in a row.

I'm not even sure that team is beating the Warriors without Durant.

Still, no matter how you slice it, whether we want to go all in now or build for 2022 and beyond, Danny lost this deal. He should not have compromised the chance at an even bigger return on our biggest asset for a chance at Jimmy Butler.

We had what Philly wanted, we had all the leverage.
Do you see Philly fans complaining that they gave up too much? No, they're celebrating. But the thing is, they should be unsure whether this was a good deal or not. They should be wary whether this deal works out in the long-term, because they receive the single biggest perceived value in this deal. It should hurt them.

That right there is the clearest indicator of how badly Danny fumbled this trade.

I'll reserve judgment. There have been a lot of deals he made that were criticized at the time...the Brooklyn trade being one of them, as an example.

That's the thing I was alluding to earlier, and why I can tell right now that we lost this deal, regardless of how it all turns out in five years. Knowing how this all shakes out in the future is not necessary to judge this deal right now.

We are not trading players, we are trading picks, whose value is entirely dependent on what the parties involved project into it.

Again, we had the leverage, we gave up the single biggest asset. Any deal where we give up such a massive chip should be a total slam dunk for us. It should be Philly that's unsure whether this was a good deal or not, instead it's us who are not sure if this works out in the long run.

[Boris Badenov]

I hear you and I'm not the biggest Butler fan.

On the other hand, if you're a GM you can't just say "We will build a team to win in 2022 because Warriors." Players get hurt, or have changes of heart....there are more alleged "dynasties" that have flamed out in 3 years than ones who've won five championships in a row.

I'm not even sure that team is beating the Warriors without Durant.

Still, no matter how you slice it, whether we want to go all in now or build for 2022 and beyond, Danny lost this deal. He should not have compromised the chance at an even bigger return on our biggest asset for a chance at Jimmy Butler.

We had what Philly wanted, we had all the leverage.
Do you see Philly fans complaining that they gave up too much? No, they're celebrating. But the thing is, they should be unsure whether this was a good deal or not. They should be wary whether this deal works out in the long-term, because they receive the single biggest perceived value in this deal. It should hurt them.

That right there is the clearest indicator of how badly Danny fumbled this trade.

I'll reserve judgment. There have been a lot of deals he made that were criticized at the time...the Brooklyn trade being one of them, as an example.

That's the thing I was alluding to earlier, and why I can tell right now that we lost this deal, regardless of how it all turns out in five years. Knowing how this all shakes out in the future is not necessary to judge this deal right now.

We are not trading players, we are trading picks, whose value is entirely dependent on what the parties involved project into it.

Again, we had the leverage, we gave up the single biggest asset. Any deal where we give up such a massive chip should be a total slam dunk for us. It should be Philly that's unsure whether this was a good deal or not, instead it's us who are not sure if this works out in the long run.

Sad to say but instinctively I agree with you at this point.

[bellerephon]

I don't agree with that logic. If Philly was holding firm and willing to walk away it's not unreasonable for DA to take the deal. It's clear that DA does not think Fultz is a future elite talent and if he can a guy that he likes better and get an extra pick that's a big win. If he's wrong and Fultz ends up being elite then it's a big loss, we won't know that for years to come. I have no idea if this trade will be good or bad for the Celts, but I don't think we can say right now that it's a bad trade. It's a risk, but keeping the pick and taking Fultz would be a risk too, especially if you don't think he's a good as the hype.

[Casperian]

I don't agree with that logic. If Philly was holding firm and willing to walk away it's not unreasonable for DA to take the deal.

Sadly, we will never find out, because our GM jumped the gun and dealt the pick 5 days before the draft, so we could lose to the Warriors in the finals...

[bellerephon]

I understand that point, but as has been speculated, I suspect that Danny is trying to put together a package for a trade. In the end though, it comes down to what you think about Fultz' potential. If you think he has a legit chance to be elite, the trade is too risky, if you think he does not have a real chance of being elite, then it makes sense, as he wouldn't elevate the Celts enough.