Author Topic: Trading down has to be setting Danny up for a trade - only way this makes sense  (Read 5180 times)

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Offline jpotter33

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Bear with me here. So to me, the timing and details of this trade imply several things:

1) Danny is pretty certain that we're going to sign a max free agent this summer, so that extra space created by moving down is certainly valuable. And there's some precedent to this, too. Two seasons ago Danny decided not to try and trade for Horford at the deadline due to thinking he could sign him in free agency, and that's what ultimately happened. With all of the recent rumors about Hayward and Griffin, I'm guessing that Danny knows he's already got one of those in the bag, probably Hayward.

2) However, Danny also has to consider what moving down and collecting FUTURE assets looks like to free agents. If Danny is looking like he's doing more for the future than the present, then that seemingly hurts his case for free agents. Why would Hayward (largely assumed to be our first choice in free agency) want to come to a team already boasting Crowder, Brown, AND Jackson? That glut of wings/swings is not really ideal given our other team needs.

3) Thus, combining number 2 above with the timing of this deal, it ultimately seems that Danny is aiming to trade for another star with some of the assets that we're getting back. The timing of this deal seems to make this a near certainty for me. If Danny was really focused on getting Jackson, then this deal wouldn't happen until draft night when he knew for certain who would be available when. The fact that he seems willing to do this now (with Philly being the ones waiting on a Fultz workout) implies that he has no real interest in making this pick at 3, since he'll ship it off in a trade anyways.

Of course, he could value Ball, Jackson, and Tatum all similarly enough that he wouldn't care who he gets at 3, and the accumulative value of the deal might be enough of an offset for him. However, that seems highly unlikely to me, especially given the fact that literally none of them have worked out for us yet. Further, Danny recently this season made comments regarding "quality over quantity" being part of our needs, so even if there is more overall quantitative value to be had from such a deal and getting more picks, Danny's recent comments about qualitative value seem to fly in the face of such a deal. All of these things point to a trade to me for sure.

4A) Finally, the main asset of the deal coming back (the LA Pick) has significant potential, but it's far from a sure thing. Compare the status of the Brooklyn pick with the status of the Lakers pick: while they both have similar potential, the Lakers pick is much less certain due to LA having many more assets that they can use to trade for upgrades now.

This is especially frightening given LA's affinity for George. Now many have assumed that they'll wait for free agency to try and get George rather than trade for him now, but that could change very fast if we end up with the LA pick and even more assets to try and get George. If we end up with the Lakers pick, then trading for George now makes much more sense for LA because 1) that would more than likely ensure that he stays there long-term and stops us from trying to trade for him and convince him to stay in Boston, and 2) it helps Magic to screw Boston and Ainge by making that pick much worse, which is certainly attractive to him.

However, if we plan on trading for George right after the Philly deal, then this concern about the LA pick isn't warranted. Further, George is a much better fit for us than Butler, and he's almost certain to be traded by the deadline with us showing significant interest in him previously. Having George in the bag would also make us that much more attractive to Hayward or Griffin in free agency.

4B) Using this same logic except for a Butler trade, if we plan on using the LA pick as part of a deal for Butler, then this concern about LA getting better is again not warranted. What's more, given Crowder's comments about Hayward this past season and the fact that Crowder was a sticking point in earlier Butler trade proposals, this might be killing two birds with one stone. If Crowder goes away as part of a Butler deal, then that solves the potential chemistry issue between him and Hayward, and that could be the extra motive that Danny needs to finally part with Crowder in such a deal, which he was unwilling to do previously.


So all of that being said, I think it seems pretty clear that we intend to trade some of those assets coming back from any Philly deal that materializes.

Of course, I don't necessarily agree with this deal. I'd probably much rather go with Hayward and Fultz moving forward, but that just doesn't seem to be in the cards at this point. However, if this trade would land us a starting lineup of IT, Brown, Hayward, George, and Horford moving forward (which matches up very well with Golden State) all while keeping the Brooklyn pick in 2018 and even adding some more picks to the treasure chest, it might not be too bad of a deal for us. Ultimately, the question would be whether or not we could keep that core group long-term financially.
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Offline 86MaxwellSmart

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All is forgiven if our opening night starters are:

IT
Bradley
Hayward
George
Horford.
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Offline jpotter33

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All is forgiven if our opening night starters are:

IT
Bradley
Hayward
George
Horford.

I imagine AB will be gone with Brown replacing him in the starting lineup. That seems to be the only possible way to get and keep George in addition to Hayward. Can't pay all three of IT, AB, and George in 2018.
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Offline csfansince60s

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TP to the Op for a well thought out post.

I hope DA holds out for more than the #3, Lakers '18 and the 2021....I don't think it's enough, and knowing Ainge's ego and having to always win trades, I think we can squeeze Philly who has pumped up their fanbase and so we should be able to get more out of them,

That being said, I don't like this tweet from DA apologist and mouthpiece, Bulpett:

Quote
  Steve Bulpett ‎@SteveBHoop 


Keys for Celt followers: What's the NEXT trade? How soon? How significant? If Philly deal happens, it'll ultimately be judged by next deal.

12:41 PM - 17 Jun 2017

This is almost like DA saying to us through Bulpett: "It's happening, it may not look like I won, but wait for the followup trade to judge me. I hope that doesn't mean that #3, Lakers and Phil '21 is all we get in this first deal.




Offline BostonClamCrowdah

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All is forgiven if our opening night starters are:

IT
Bradley
Hayward
George
Horford.

LOL at that starting 5

Who's your interior defensive presence?

Who's your rebounder?


Online Neurotic Guy

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If two of '18 Nets, '18 Lakers and #3 are gone for Butler (in addition to AB or JC), then count me as one of those against the plan.  For George I think a little differently - he may be worth it.  But I just hate the idea of Fultz for Butler which it essentially becomes if the deal is #1 for #3 and LAL '18.  Fultz has big upside and probably contributes very quickly. Granted he's not Butler in year one, but possibly is by the end of Year two.

Offline Big333223

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That all makes lots of sense. I also think it's possible that Ainge just likes someone else in the top 3 as much as he likes Fultz and thinks he can draft still a superstar and get more assets out of Philly.

I also think the whole rumor could be bunk. Maybe the C's and Philly are throwing around ideas but aren't anywhere near close to actually making a deal. I guess we'll know Thursday.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2017, 04:48:18 PM by Big333223 »
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Offline jpotter33

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TP to the Op for a well thought out post.

I hope DA holds out for more than the #3, Lakers '18 and the 2021....I don't think it's enough, and knowing Ainge's ego and having to always win trades, I think we can squeeze Philly who has pumped up their fanbase and so we should be able to get more out of them,

That being said, I don't like this tweet from DA apologist and mouthpiece, Bulpett:

Quote
  Steve Bulpett ‎@SteveBHoop 


Keys for Celt followers: What's the NEXT trade? How soon? How significant? If Philly deal happens, it'll ultimately be judged by next deal.

12:41 PM - 17 Jun 2017

This is almost like DA saying to us through Bulpett: "It's happening, it may not look like I won, but wait for the followup trade to judge me. I hope that doesn't mean that #3, Lakers and Phil '21 is all we get in this first deal.

Yeah, I see the same thing. It just all points to a further trade down the road a bit, ala Ray-Ray in 2007. I just hope it's worth it and we don't unnecessarily build Philly as a perennial powerhouse because Danny decided to be cute.
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Offline jpotter33

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If two of '18 Nets, '18 Lakers and #3 are gone for Butler (in addition to AB or JC), then count me as one of those against the plan.  For George I think a little differently - he may be worth it.  But I just hate the idea of Fultz for Butler which it essentially becomes if the deal is #1 for #3 and LAL '18.  Fultz has big upside and probably contributes very quickly. Granted he's not Butler in year one, but possibly is by the end of Year two.

Same here with George over Butler.

Luckily, in the past it's been the guy not talked about that we've actually been going for. As of now, Butler has been mentioned a lot, but not George.
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Offline CelticSooner

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It could very well be. It could also just be Trader Danny not being able to pass up a deal.

Offline JohnBoy65

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Tp for the post. When I first heard of the rumor I thought of the same thing. There must be something else on the horizon. Also what many aren't talking about is maybe DA is convinced Brown is our foundation corner piece going forward. If he truly believes that it's easier for him to pass on Fultz. So he wants to surround Jaylen with with win now veterans and give this team a 5 year window, once that's over we have a Kwahi Situation with Jaylen. That's all if Danny believes Jaylen is the guy

Offline Boris Badenov

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Why would the assets we get back in this trade be more appealing to either IND or CHI than just trading them the #1 pick? Why does Philly have to be involved? If it's a question of other players or picks, we have those too. We can construct nearly any combination of current and future assets anyway, and one of them is the #1 pick in a very good draft.

That's what I don't get.


Offline JohnBoy65

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Why would the assets we get back in this trade be more appealing to either IND or CHI than just trading them the #1 pick? Why does Philly have to be involved? If it's a question of other players or picks, we have those too. We can construct nearly any combination of current and future assets anyway, and one of them is the #1 pick in a very good draft.

That's what I don't get.

It's the ability to get more assets, so that when we trade for a butler or George we still have some. We aren't completely emptying the cupboard

Offline Bobshot

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My sense is Ainge gets Philly's #3 and LAL's no.1 next year. Trade's 'em both for Butler,
then signs Griffin or Millsap as FAs. He might get Millsap on a 3 year if he has Butler. Butler makes a FA signing more likely.

There are other scenarios less likely. For example, he lands AD, then signs Hayward as FA.

I thought Hayward was the original FA target, but that could change if he lands Butler.

You can interchange George with Butler, provided George extends  with Boston. That's a must.
That might put Hayward in play, since George can play the 4.

Whatever, the Celtics get two "stars" out of this draft deal.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2017, 05:07:48 PM by Bobshot »

Offline Boris Badenov

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Why would the assets we get back in this trade be more appealing to either IND or CHI than just trading them the #1 pick? Why does Philly have to be involved? If it's a question of other players or picks, we have those too. We can construct nearly any combination of current and future assets anyway, and one of them is the #1 pick in a very good draft.

That's what I don't get.

It's the ability to get more assets, so that when we trade for a butler or George we still have some. We aren't completely emptying the cupboard

But that's what I'm saying. What is the extra asset we get back? A 2018 lottery pick? We already have one of those.

And generally if we send out the equivalent of what we get for the #1 pick anyway, we are in the same boat whether we trade #1 for assets and then trade those, or just trade #1 straight up.

The only way it works is if we can swap #3 and little else for Butler or George. Then, I agree with you.

But from what I heard at the deadline, the asking prices for those guys were more than the 2017 pick straight up, even when it could have ended up at #1. Are they lower now?