Brandon Roy shot in leg shielding children from gunfire

[kozlodoev]

I wish we could do more about gang violence. Isn't there some sort of RICO statute we can use? The very act of being in a gang should be illegal, and every member of such gang should be responsible for all crimes committed by the gang.

If that violates the law, change the law.

Well that sounds problematic.

I wonder if the same should be said about fraternities...

Lol. Yes, frats routinely murder innocent people.

Gang murders make up something like 15% of all homicides in the US, but let's compare them to fraternities.

I think the point is "what is a gang"? We need to define a "gang" before we can prosecute a gang under RICO, I believe.

I do like your suggestion, Roy. Organized crime is bad, be it the Mafia or MS13. It would be great to tackle this.

But again, what is a "gang"? Does it include the KKK? Does it include the Aryan Brotherhood? Does it include Hells Angels?

And i'm going back to the

and every member of such gang should be responsible for all crimes committed by the gang.

Should that apply to all organizations? Why not? Why shouldn't it apply to banks, law firms, politicians, etc. Would really increase intra-peer accountability!

And, I'm assuming that if 1st ammendment rights can be revoked for probable future criminals, there's no problem evoking 2nd ammendment rights too. Package deal?

The difference is that most organizations aren't created specifically for purposes of committing crimes. Those that are should be broken up.

What is it about MS13's charter that you find so appealing?

https://www.google.com/amp/www.nydailynews.com/amp/news/crime/long-island-teen-butchered-turning-back-ms-13-pal-sister-article-1.3055720

I'd hate to violate the rights of these fine young men by limiting their right to assemble for purposes of committing more atrocities.

I didn't realize that gangs conveniently come with charters that spell out all their criminal intents. That changes everything.

So I'm guessing it's going to be ok if gangs subscribe to a specific legit purpose and then engage in criminal activity on the side? That's going to make them almost like guns.

There are tens of millions of law-abiding gun owners.  What percentage of MS-13 would you consider to be law-abiding?

I'm in favor of some degree of gun control. I'm also in favor of getting violent thugs who murder children off the streets.

Every single one that hasn't been proven guilty in court. At least that's what the US justice system would have me believe, I think?

[Roy H.]

You would also have to define membership/affiliation with a gang. It's not like they sign a paper to become members. It's likely that to prove membership in a gang, you'd have to prove they acted on the part of a gang, which likely means they were caught doing something illegal anyway so you're already prosecuting them at that point.

Displaying gang symbols / having gang tattoos would be enough for probable cause. Association with other gang members, etc.

And, once they're established as being in a gang, prosecute them for all bad acts of their joint criminal enterprise.

[Roy H.]

I wish we could do more about gang violence. Isn't there some sort of RICO statute we can use? The very act of being in a gang should be illegal, and every member of such gang should be responsible for all crimes committed by the gang.

If that violates the law, change the law.

Well that sounds problematic.

I wonder if the same should be said about fraternities...

Lol. Yes, frats routinely murder innocent people.

Gang murders make up something like 15% of all homicides in the US, but let's compare them to fraternities.

I think the point is "what is a gang"? We need to define a "gang" before we can prosecute a gang under RICO, I believe.

I do like your suggestion, Roy. Organized crime is bad, be it the Mafia or MS13. It would be great to tackle this.

But again, what is a "gang"? Does it include the KKK? Does it include the Aryan Brotherhood? Does it include Hells Angels?

And i'm going back to the

and every member of such gang should be responsible for all crimes committed by the gang.

Should that apply to all organizations? Why not? Why shouldn't it apply to banks, law firms, politicians, etc. Would really increase intra-peer accountability!

And, I'm assuming that if 1st ammendment rights can be revoked for probable future criminals, there's no problem evoking 2nd ammendment rights too. Package deal?

The difference is that most organizations aren't created specifically for purposes of committing crimes. Those that are should be broken up.

What is it about MS13's charter that you find so appealing?

https://www.google.com/amp/www.nydailynews.com/amp/news/crime/long-island-teen-butchered-turning-back-ms-13-pal-sister-article-1.3055720

I'd hate to violate the rights of these fine young men by limiting their right to assemble for purposes of committing more atrocities.

I didn't realize that gangs conveniently come with charters that spell out all their criminal intents. That changes everything.

So I'm guessing it's going to be ok if gangs subscribe to a specific legit purpose and then engage in criminal activity on the side? That's going to make them almost like guns.

There are tens of millions of law-abiding gun owners.  What percentage of MS-13 would you consider to be law-abiding?

I'm in favor of some degree of gun control. I'm also in favor of getting violent thugs who murder children off the streets.

Every single one that hasn't been proven guilty in court. At least that's what the US justice system would have me believe, I think?

I'm glad you find rape and murder to be so humorous.

[kozlodoev]

I wish we could do more about gang violence. Isn't there some sort of RICO statute we can use? The very act of being in a gang should be illegal, and every member of such gang should be responsible for all crimes committed by the gang.

If that violates the law, change the law.

Well that sounds problematic.

I wonder if the same should be said about fraternities...

Lol. Yes, frats routinely murder innocent people.

Gang murders make up something like 15% of all homicides in the US, but let's compare them to fraternities.

I think the point is "what is a gang"? We need to define a "gang" before we can prosecute a gang under RICO, I believe.

I do like your suggestion, Roy. Organized crime is bad, be it the Mafia or MS13. It would be great to tackle this.

But again, what is a "gang"? Does it include the KKK? Does it include the Aryan Brotherhood? Does it include Hells Angels?

And i'm going back to the

and every member of such gang should be responsible for all crimes committed by the gang.

Should that apply to all organizations? Why not? Why shouldn't it apply to banks, law firms, politicians, etc. Would really increase intra-peer accountability!

And, I'm assuming that if 1st ammendment rights can be revoked for probable future criminals, there's no problem evoking 2nd ammendment rights too. Package deal?

The difference is that most organizations aren't created specifically for purposes of committing crimes. Those that are should be broken up.

What is it about MS13's charter that you find so appealing?

https://www.google.com/amp/www.nydailynews.com/amp/news/crime/long-island-teen-butchered-turning-back-ms-13-pal-sister-article-1.3055720

I'd hate to violate the rights of these fine young men by limiting their right to assemble for purposes of committing more atrocities.

I didn't realize that gangs conveniently come with charters that spell out all their criminal intents. That changes everything.

So I'm guessing it's going to be ok if gangs subscribe to a specific legit purpose and then engage in criminal activity on the side? That's going to make them almost like guns.

There are tens of millions of law-abiding gun owners.  What percentage of MS-13 would you consider to be law-abiding?

I'm in favor of some degree of gun control. I'm also in favor of getting violent thugs who murder children off the streets.

Every single one that hasn't been proven guilty in court. At least that's what the US justice system would have me believe, I think?

I'm glad you find rape and murder to be so humorous.

You think having to prove someone guilty in court is humorous?

[Roy H.]

I wish we could do more about gang violence. Isn't there some sort of RICO statute we can use? The very act of being in a gang should be illegal, and every member of such gang should be responsible for all crimes committed by the gang.

If that violates the law, change the law.

Well that sounds problematic.

I wonder if the same should be said about fraternities...

Lol. Yes, frats routinely murder innocent people.

Gang murders make up something like 15% of all homicides in the US, but let's compare them to fraternities.

I think the point is "what is a gang"? We need to define a "gang" before we can prosecute a gang under RICO, I believe.

I do like your suggestion, Roy. Organized crime is bad, be it the Mafia or MS13. It would be great to tackle this.

But again, what is a "gang"? Does it include the KKK? Does it include the Aryan Brotherhood? Does it include Hells Angels?

And i'm going back to the

and every member of such gang should be responsible for all crimes committed by the gang.

Should that apply to all organizations? Why not? Why shouldn't it apply to banks, law firms, politicians, etc. Would really increase intra-peer accountability!

And, I'm assuming that if 1st ammendment rights can be revoked for probable future criminals, there's no problem evoking 2nd ammendment rights too. Package deal?

The difference is that most organizations aren't created specifically for purposes of committing crimes. Those that are should be broken up.

What is it about MS13's charter that you find so appealing?

https://www.google.com/amp/www.nydailynews.com/amp/news/crime/long-island-teen-butchered-turning-back-ms-13-pal-sister-article-1.3055720

I'd hate to violate the rights of these fine young men by limiting their right to assemble for purposes of committing more atrocities.

I didn't realize that gangs conveniently come with charters that spell out all their criminal intents. That changes everything.

So I'm guessing it's going to be ok if gangs subscribe to a specific legit purpose and then engage in criminal activity on the side? That's going to make them almost like guns.

There are tens of millions of law-abiding gun owners.  What percentage of MS-13 would you consider to be law-abiding?

I'm in favor of some degree of gun control. I'm also in favor of getting violent thugs who murder children off the streets.

Every single one that hasn't been proven guilty in court. At least that's what the US justice system would have me believe, I think?

I'm glad you find rape and murder to be so humorous.

You think having to prove someone guilty in court is humorous?

The idea that every member of MS13 is law abiding unless convicted is a farce, yes.

Plenty of people break the law but are never caught or convicted. You know that, but choose to make light of it.

[Big333223]

Well this pretty quickly became the most passive aggressive thread I've ever seen on CB.

[Future Celtics Owner]

I wish we could do more about gang violence. Isn't there some sort of RICO statute we can use? The very act of being in a gang should be illegal, and every member of such gang should be responsible for all crimes committed by the gang.

If that violates the law, change the law.

Well that sounds problematic.

I wonder if the same should be said about fraternities...

Lol. Yes, frats routinely murder innocent people.

Gang murders make up something like 15% of all homicides in the US, but let's compare them to fraternities.

I think the point is "what is a gang"? We need to define a "gang" before we can prosecute a gang under RICO, I believe.

I do like your suggestion, Roy. Organized crime is bad, be it the Mafia or MS13. It would be great to tackle this.

But again, what is a "gang"? Does it include the KKK? Does it include the Aryan Brotherhood? Does it include Hells Angels?

And i'm going back to the

and every member of such gang should be responsible for all crimes committed by the gang.

Should that apply to all organizations? Why not? Why shouldn't it apply to banks, law firms, politicians, etc. Would really increase intra-peer accountability!

And, I'm assuming that if 1st ammendment rights can be revoked for probable future criminals, there's no problem evoking 2nd ammendment rights too. Package deal?

The difference is that most organizations aren't created specifically for purposes of committing crimes. Those that are should be broken up.

What is it about MS13's charter that you find so appealing?

https://www.google.com/amp/www.nydailynews.com/amp/news/crime/long-island-teen-butchered-turning-back-ms-13-pal-sister-article-1.3055720

I'd hate to violate the rights of these fine young men by limiting their right to assemble for purposes of committing more atrocities.

I didn't realize that gangs conveniently come with charters that spell out all their criminal intents. That changes everything.

So I'm guessing it's going to be ok if gangs subscribe to a specific legit purpose and then engage in criminal activity on the side? That's going to make them almost like guns.

There are tens of millions of law-abiding gun owners.  What percentage of MS-13 would you consider to be law-abiding?

I'm in favor of some degree of gun control. I'm also in favor of getting violent thugs who murder children off the streets.

Every single one that hasn't been proven guilty in court. At least that's what the US justice system would have me believe, I think?

I'm glad you find rape and murder to be so humorous.

We already have gun control. What people really mean to say is that they want mandatory buy-back program like in Australia. A complete gun registry is the only step one needs to enforce a mandatory buy-back program.

[kozlodoev]

The idea that every member of MS13 is law abiding unless convicted is a farce, yes.

Plenty of people break the law but are never caught or convicted. You know that, but choose to make light of it.

I'm really curious, is the American legal system mostly built on empty phrases, and thus due process only applies to people we think are likely not guilty?

[kozlodoev]

Well this pretty quickly became the most passive aggressive thread I've ever seen on CB.

The parallels with Minority Report are just too stark for my liking. But I'm not going to deny that, as usual, when stuff escalates I'm around.

[Big333223]

Well this pretty quickly became the most passive aggressive thread I've ever seen on CB.

The parallels with Minority Report are just too stark for my liking. But I'm not going to deny that, as usual, when stuff escalates I'm around.

lol

I'm just finding the level of snark in this thread to be off the charts.

But yeah, I mostly agree with your position. I'm not sure how you'd ever define "gang" in such a way that it could be used both consistently and fairly if made illegal.

[ThaPreacher]

I wish we could do more about gang violence. Isn't there some sort of RICO statute we can use? The very act of being in a gang should be illegal, and every member of such gang should be responsible for all crimes committed by the gang.

If that violates the law, change the law.

Well that sounds problematic.

I mean, who needs freedom of association?

You're that worried about MS13's right to peacefully assemble, huh?

My guess is that your opinion would be different if they murdered / raped one of your loved ones. But by all means, let them continue unabated.

So are you saying your family member has been murdered or raped by MS13, since that's what apparently causes a difference of opinion?  If so, I'm very sorry for your family's troubles.

No, I don't need to be personally affected to have empathy by the many innocents brutalized by gangs.  You seem not to care.

We have a story about gang members shooting at children, and you're concerned about the rights of gang members.

This thread has degenerated into another logical fallacy.  Let's lock the thread and move on.
Hard to debate unless people are willing to look at both sides.

I think we all want to do something to deter 'gang violence'. And I think we all want to protect individual rights and personal freedom.

Lock the thread and let's move on.

[Roy H.]

I think we all want to do something to deter 'gang violence'.

I certainly wouldn't draw that conclusion from reading this thread.

[GratefulCs]

man, his legs can't catch a break!

[hwangjini_1]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/brandon-roy-shot_us_5909cc87e4b0bb2d08739bd7?5c8

It's a little sad that Brandon Roy is a news item, but children getting shot at, not so much.

Welcome to the US. 

[hwangjini_1]

I wish we could do more about gang violence. Isn't there some sort of RICO statute we can use? The very act of being in a gang should be illegal, and every member of such gang should be responsible for all crimes committed by the gang.

If that violates the law, change the law.

Well that sounds problematic.

I wonder if the same should be said about fraternities...

Yes, absolutely! And the lakers too. anyone who joins the laker team/gang/fraternity should be sent to jail.

Now if we could just change the laws to make this happen.....