George noncommital on Pacers extension; wants to play for "winning" team

[DefenseWinsChamps]

That's fine if he doesn't want to play pf. Smart or crowder can.

[seancally]

Never really heard about the not playing PF story. Isn't he really a SG/SF though? I get that he is 6'9" but that doesn't mean he can play PF against most teams. Might be more to the story there behind the scenes.

Yeah - here's the story:

Players don't want to play a position up. It's hard and exacts a physical toll. Lebron didn't want to play the 4 (and, by the way, still doesn't, mostly) and he is certainly capable of it. Would be a nightmare. He's almost the same exact size as peak Karl Malone.

KG didn't want to play the 5. Why? Centers are bigger, stronger and harder to guard in the post / out-rebound than 4s (typically).

Carmelo doesn't want to play the 4. See James, Lebron.

This is nothing new and is not a red flag. He's a small forward and has carved out a tremendous role in that position. Of course he doesn't want to play a different position.

Plus, winning changes everything. Brad is a phenomenal coach. Paul George is not a starting 4, but will cover the 4 in spots and stretches. Would give flexibility against lineups that require a small 4.

Nobody is disputing that players don't want to play up a position, or criticizing Paul George for not wanting to play up a position.  The issue is that he will not play up a position, which is not something that any of the players you mentioned did (they may not have liked it, but they did it), and is absolutely a red flag

Oh for goodness sake.

I'm sure Paul George has logged minutes at the 4. I don't watch enough Pacers games nor am I savvy enough with Basketball Reference to know that for sure. But it seems very unlikely that he's never played the 4.

Furthermore: You know when those players I mentioned agree to play a position up? When they are in winning situations - when they realize their versatility is a key to success.

And in any case, I frankly don't care if Paul George will play the 4 or not. Sometimes he shouldn't play the 4, depending on the matchup. What matters is that he would become, at least, our best 2-way player, and it isn't even close. He's a matchup nightmare. I've gone to games when we've played his pacers and he is a real problem - a la Lebron.

Would he put us over the top? Make us contenders? Yes, he would. While playing small forward, at that. This bull of putting himself ahead of the team - true of many stars. True of many champions. True of plenty of guys stuck in situations they don't want to be in. I don't put stock in that at all.

[Smokeeye123]

If the deal is fair for both sides I see Bird letting him go to us.

[Who]

George is a SG/SF. I'd be intrigued by a line up of Thomas/George/Crowder/Horford/Olynyk(or Johnson).

I wonder if Bird would bite on Bradley, Zeller, Rozier, Mickey, the rights to Nader, BKN 2017, BOS 2019, MEM 2019 and what ever seconds. Still Keep Smart, Brown, BKN 2018.

Thomas/Smart/Jackson
George/Green/Young
Crowder/Brown
Horford/Jerbko/(Yabusele)
Johnson/Olynyk/(Zizic)

Agreed -- I really like P.George as a big 2 guard. Get that extra length out on the perimeter defensively. Make passing lanes difficult. That is the direction I would be putting P.George in more so than trying him at PF.

[Yoki_IsTheName]

George is a SG/SF. I'd be intrigued by a line up of Thomas/George/Crowder/Horford/Olynyk(or Johnson).

I wonder if Bird would bite on Bradley, Zeller, Rozier, Mickey, the rights to Nader, BKN 2017, BOS 2019, MEM 2019 and what ever seconds. Still Keep Smart, Brown, BKN 2018.

Thomas/Smart/Jackson
George/Green/Young
Crowder/Brown
Horford/Jerbko/(Yabusele)
Johnson/Olynyk/(Zizic)

Any deal that will involve Paul George would certainly involve Jaylen Brown.

It makes sense for Indiana to get a some sort of a "Paul George" replacement that they can develop.

[D Dub]

George is a SG/SF. I'd be intrigued by a line up of Thomas/George/Crowder/Horford/Olynyk(or Johnson).

I wonder if Bird would bite on Bradley, Zeller, Rozier, Mickey, the rights to Nader, BKN 2017, BOS 2019, MEM 2019 and what ever seconds. Still Keep Smart, Brown, BKN 2018.

Thomas/Smart/Jackson
George/Green/Young
Crowder/Brown
Horford/Jerbko/(Yabusele)
Johnson/Olynyk/(Zizic)

Agreed -- I really like P.George as a big 2 guard. Get that extra length out on the perimeter defensively. Make passing lanes difficult. That is the direction I would be putting P.George in more so than trying him at PF.

TP who and magic hat. 

Great trade proposal & philosophy on playing PG. 

[tarheelsxxiii]

If George opts out this summer, what's the biggest contract he could get without re-signing with the Pacers. Does anyone know?

His option is for 2018-2019, not this summer.

salt, would it be feasible to max George at that point, assuming that IT is signed at the max and one (two would be amazing) of AB/Crowder/Smart can be reasonably paid?

It really depends what gets sent away for him.  Crowder is under contract for a few years yet, whereas Bradley and Smart aren't.  But I don't think you can have IT, George, and Horford all maxed in 2018 and keep both Smart and Bradley.  Could be difficult to do with even one.  Crowder and one of them should be possible, assuming we're also sending out 2017 Brooklyn.  There'd still be a sizable luxury tax bill, and Olynyk needs to be gone in such a situation as well.  I'd think the team would be about $15 million over the luxury tax with the following roster:

IT
George
Horford
Smart/AB
Crowder
Brown
2018 Brooklyn
Rozier
Yabusele
Zizic
2018 Celtics
Minimum salary the last four slots.

That's a luxury tax bill that approaches $30 million on top of about a $140 million payroll.  Tough to see the team going much higher than that.  I know people are willing to trade Crowder, but he's borderline unreplaceable from a salary perspective.

Thank you! Very helpful, as always.  Sounds like incorporating a third max player, if possible, forces one of AB/Smart/Crowder out.  And as you pointed out, Crowder (and prob Smart) are the best options moving forward, though my hat goes off to AB for his improvement.

I wonder if the FO are willing to pay a luxury tax.  Looks like in 08-09, they were willing to spend $8 million+ in luxury tax to compete for a championship.  $30 million does seem hefty, but if a team like CLE is willing to pay $54 million, maybe spending will be seen as a necessity.

[rondohondo]

This trade makes a lot of sense if Indy wants to trade him

Bos sends : Crowder, zellar ,Rozier ,brk 17 , bos 18 , 2nd rd pickz
Indy sends : George


IT.            Smart
AB.          Smart/Jaylen
George.   Jaylen
Amir.        Jerebko
Horford.    KO

Would still have amir and Jerebko as salary if you also want to go after a Bogut type to fill out the big man rotation along with Horford and KO.   

[jpotter33]

How about this set of trades:

Boston: George, Miles

Indiana: Amir, Brown, Rozier, 2017 Brooklyn first swap, 2019 Memphis pick


Boston: Noel, protected future Philly first

Philly: Bradley

That leaves you with the following roster:

PG: IT, Smart
SG: George, Green/Young
SF: Crowder, Miles
PF: Horford, JJ
C: Noel, KO, Zeller

And it would still leave us with next year's 2018 Brooklyn draft pick, the Clips future protected pick, and a future protected pick from Philly. That's a championship roster right there with 6 elite shooters and at least 4 to 5 elite defenders, and I think that's a fair trade all around for both George and Noel.

[cons]

he could really change the culture of our club!
yay!

If Bird asks for too much...

Ainge: "Larry, do you really want to hurt me?  Do you really want to make me cry?"

haha! nice! TP

[LilRip]

How about this set of trades:

Boston: George, Miles

Indiana: Amir, Brown, Rozier, 2017 Brooklyn first swap, 2019 Memphis pick


Boston: Noel, protected future Philly first

Philly: Bradley

That leaves you with the following roster:

PG: IT, Smart
SG: George, Green/Young
SF: Crowder, Miles
PF: Horford, JJ
C: Noel, KO, Zeller

And it would still leave us with next year's 2018 Brooklyn draft pick, the Clips future protected pick, and a future protected pick from Philly. That's a championship roster right there with 6 elite shooters and at least 4 to 5 elite defenders, and I think that's a fair trade all around for both George and Noel.

I like it. And I think getting Brown + 2017 + Rozier is a good haul for George. Maybe I'd throw in a 2nd rounder as well if it's not enough. CJ Miles is a good backup and is a flamethrower on some nights.

Noel I'm on the fence. I can see why we need size after giving up Amir but realistically, can we keep Noel after this year once he hits FA? Maybe keep Brown and give Bradley instead? I don't know if the deal makes as much sense for the Pacers in that situation though.

[bdm860]

Never really heard about the not playing PF story. Isn't he really a SG/SF though? I get that he is 6'9" but that doesn't mean he can play PF against most teams. Might be more to the story there behind the scenes.

Yeah - here's the story:

Players don't want to play a position up. It's hard and exacts a physical toll. Lebron didn't want to play the 4 (and, by the way, still doesn't, mostly) and he is certainly capable of it. Would be a nightmare. He's almost the same exact size as peak Karl Malone.

KG didn't want to play the 5. Why? Centers are bigger, stronger and harder to guard in the post / out-rebound than 4s (typically).

Carmelo doesn't want to play the 4. See James, Lebron.

This is nothing new and is not a red flag. He's a small forward and has carved out a tremendous role in that position. Of course he doesn't want to play a different position.

Plus, winning changes everything. Brad is a phenomenal coach. Paul George is not a starting 4, but will cover the 4 in spots and stretches. Would give flexibility against lineups that require a small 4.

Nobody is disputing that players don't want to play up a position, or criticizing Paul George for not wanting to play up a position.  The issue is that he will not play up a position, which is not something that any of the players you mentioned did (they may not have liked it, but they did it), and is absolutely a red flag

Oh for goodness sake.

I'm sure Paul George has logged minutes at the 4. I don't watch enough Pacers games nor am I savvy enough with Basketball Reference to know that for sure. But it seems very unlikely that he's never played the 4.

Furthermore: You know when those players I mentioned agree to play a position up? When they are in winning situations - when they realize their versatility is a key to success.

And in any case, I frankly don't care if Paul George will play the 4 or not. Sometimes he shouldn't play the 4, depending on the matchup. What matters is that he would become, at least, our best 2-way player, and it isn't even close. He's a matchup nightmare. I've gone to games when we've played his pacers and he is a real problem - a la Lebron.

Would he put us over the top? Make us contenders? Yes, he would. While playing small forward, at that. This bull of putting himself ahead of the team - true of many stars. True of many champions. True of plenty of guys stuck in situations they don't want to be in. I don't put stock in that at all.

According to bball-reference, George has played 13% at PF this year, and last year it was 39% in the regular season and 67% in Indiana's 7 playoff games.

Last year playoffs one of their main 5 man units was
PG: G Hill
SG: Ellis
SF: S Hill
PF: George
C: Turner/Mahinmi

This years 6 most popular 5 man unit is (have only played 64mins together though).
PG: Teague
SG: Ellis
SF: Miles
PF: George
C: Turner

[ssspence]

How about this set of trades:

Boston: George, Miles

Indiana: Amir, Brown, Rozier, 2017 Brooklyn first swap, 2019 Memphis pick


Boston: Noel, protected future Philly first

Philly: Bradley

That leaves you with the following roster:

PG: IT, Smart
SG: George, Green/Young
SF: Crowder, Miles
PF: Horford, JJ
C: Noel, KO, Zeller

And it would still leave us with next year's 2018 Brooklyn draft pick, the Clips future protected pick, and a future protected pick from Philly. That's a championship roster right there with 6 elite shooters and at least 4 to 5 elite defenders, and I think that's a fair trade all around for both George and Noel.

Not a championship team. So why waste the assets? It's pure impatience.

[jpotter33]

How about this set of trades:

Boston: George, Miles

Indiana: Amir, Brown, Rozier, 2017 Brooklyn first swap, 2019 Memphis pick


Boston: Noel, protected future Philly first

Philly: Bradley

That leaves you with the following roster:

PG: IT, Smart
SG: George, Green/Young
SF: Crowder, Miles
PF: Horford, JJ
C: Noel, KO, Zeller

And it would still leave us with next year's 2018 Brooklyn draft pick, the Clips future protected pick, and a future protected pick from Philly. That's a championship roster right there with 6 elite shooters and at least 4 to 5 elite defenders, and I think that's a fair trade all around for both George and Noel.

Not a championship team. So why waste the assets? It's pure impatience.

[ssspence]

How about this set of trades:

Boston: George, Miles

Indiana: Amir, Brown, Rozier, 2017 Brooklyn first swap, 2019 Memphis pick


Boston: Noel, protected future Philly first

Philly: Bradley

That leaves you with the following roster:

PG: IT, Smart
SG: George, Green/Young
SF: Crowder, Miles
PF: Horford, JJ
C: Noel, KO, Zeller

And it would still leave us with next year's 2018 Brooklyn draft pick, the Clips future protected pick, and a future protected pick from Philly. That's a championship roster right there with 6 elite shooters and at least 4 to 5 elite defenders, and I think that's a fair trade all around for both George and Noel.

Not a championship team. So why waste the assets? It's pure impatience.

Cool. As you know, glad to hear it.