Trading for Vucevic (merged rumor threads)

[bogg]

He must be delusional then if he thinks any team wants to lock him up for several years after next year at a ridiculous contract for a "me- first" player. I don't see it.

He now makes Nic Batum/Al Horford money in the new environment, and would serve reasonably well as a contender's third option who can spring for 30+ in the playoffs on a given night when the primary options don't have it going. If your argument is that nobody in the league would offer him a contract anywhere near what he's currently making, you're just wrong.

[hodgy03038]

He must be delusional then if he thinks any team wants to lock him up for several years after next year at a ridiculous contract for a "me- first" player. I don't see it.

He now makes Nic Batum/Al Horford money in the new environment, and would serve reasonably well as a contender's third option who can spring for 30+ in the playoffs on a given night when the primary options don't have it going. If your argument is that nobody in the league would offer him a contract anywhere near what he's currently making, you're just wrong.

So you really think that a team will spring for max money on a 34-35 year old Melo for the years after next year's season? What I was referring to was that someone said Melo would more than likely opt out next year to become a free agent after that rather than keep the 29+ mill for his option year after next. My opinion is that he won't be that desirable then for a team to spring for a higher contract that may be several years.

[IDreamCeltics]

why the delay...just get it done already

To Boston: Vucevic
To Magic: Amir, James Young, all 2017 2nd round picks

I don't even think you even need to include Rozier

Don't forget Timofey Mozgov was worth 2 first round picks not long ago.  I'm sure Orlando will hold out (most likely too long to get any value knowing their incompetence).

But Expiring Amir, James Young, and 2nd rounders doesn't give Orlando any real value at all in return for a nightly 20-10 threat on a good contract so what do they really have to lose holding out?   

[bogg]

He must be delusional then if he thinks any team wants to lock him up for several years after next year at a ridiculous contract for a "me- first" player. I don't see it.

He now makes Nic Batum/Al Horford money in the new environment, and would serve reasonably well as a contender's third option who can spring for 30+ in the playoffs on a given night when the primary options don't have it going. If your argument is that nobody in the league would offer him a contract anywhere near what he's currently making, you're just wrong.

So you really think that a team will spring for max money on a 34-35 year old Melo for the years after next year's season? What I was referring to was that someone said Melo would more than likely opt out next year to become a free agent after that rather than keep the 29+ mill for his option year after next. My opinion is that he won't be that desirable then for a team to spring for a higher contract that may be several years.

I never said he'd get maxed out - he no longer makes max money, which is an important point. I was the one who said that he'd be more likely to opt out, but it's to secure as much guaranteed money as possible over the following four years. Given his true max salary at that point will be somewhere between $35-38 million a year, I DO believe that he finds a team willing to sign him to a deal in the neighborhood of $25 million per, give or take, over a four-year period, and that he's more likely to get additional guaranteed years at 34 (presumably after a statistically good year) than he would at age 35 (which is where he'd be opting in). It's not about getting a huge raise in the first year of your new contract, it's about locking in as much guaranteed money as possible in your thirties rather than playing on an expiring deal and risking significant injury or steep decline physically.

Pierce was an all-star at 34, put up a solid statistical season at 35 (his last in Boston) including averaging a 20-5-5 in the playoffs, and then fell off a cliff from age 36 on.

[Eddie20]

He must be delusional then if he thinks any team wants to lock him up for several years after next year at a ridiculous contract for a "me- first" player. I don't see it.

He now makes Nic Batum/Al Horford money in the new environment, and would serve reasonably well as a contender's third option who can spring for 30+ in the playoffs on a given night when the primary options don't have it going. If your argument is that nobody in the league would offer him a contract anywhere near what he's currently making, you're just wrong.

So you really think that a team will spring for max money on a 34-35 year old Melo for the years after next year's season? What I was referring to was that someone said Melo would more than likely opt out next year to become a free agent after that rather than keep the 29+ mill for his option year after next. My opinion is that he won't be that desirable then for a team to spring for a higher contract that may be several years.

I never said he'd get maxed out - he no longer makes max money, which is an important point. I was the one who said that he'd be more likely to opt out, but it's to secure as much guaranteed money as possible over the following four years. Given his true max salary at that point will be somewhere between $35-38 million a year, I DO believe that he finds a team willing to sign him to a deal in the neighborhood of $25 million per, give or take, over a four-year period, and that he's more likely to get additional guaranteed years at 34 (presumably after a statistically good year) than he would at age 35 (which is where he'd be opting in). It's not about getting a huge raise in the first year of your new contract, it's about locking in as much guaranteed money as possible in your thirties rather than playing on an expiring deal and risking significant injury or steep decline physically.

Pierce was an all-star at 34, put up a solid statistical season at 35 (his last in Boston) including averaging a 20-5-5 in the playoffs, and then fell off a cliff from age 36 on.

Judging by your Pierce comparison, you're saying a team should pay him 25M per year for 2 years of good production and then 25M per year for 2 years of awful play. Doesn't sound like many teams will be knocking down his door to offer up that type of contract.

[hodgy03038]

bogg - I know what he makes now and what his contract is. The point is that someone said he would definitely "opt-out" from his option year which is after next season which is like 29+ million. I am saying it would be delusional for him to think that he is so valuable to "anybody" that they would sign a free agent Melo for a long term deal after next year for more than 29 million. I am saying if we picked him up he would be ours this year, next year and the option year (because there is no way that he would opt out). I am saying he is not worth it even at these Horford/Batum salaries.

So the person that said he would definitely opt-out in his option year after next was basically saying we would only be saddled with his salary for this year and next. I disagree AND I do not want him here.

[bogg]

bogg - I know what he makes now and what his contract is. The point is that someone said he would definitely "opt-out" from his option year which is after next season which is like 29+ million. I am saying it would be delusional for him to think that he is so valuable to "anybody" that they would sign a free agent Melo for a long term deal after next year for more than 29 million. I am saying if we picked him up he would be ours this year, next year and the option year (because there is no way that he would opt out). I am saying he is not worth it even at these Horford/Batum salaries.

So the person that said he would definitely opt-out in his option year after next was basically saying we would only be saddled with his salary for this year and next. I disagree AND I do not want him here.

Again, it was me that said he was likely to opt out (nobody said definitely) because he's better offer being a free agent at 34 instead of 35, and you still haven't offered any sort of argument why, in an environment where Luol Deng and Joakim Noah can get $18 million per, there's no way a team would offer Carmelo a deal paying in the mid-20's annually, other than repeating the word "delusional" a whole bunch. However, it doesn't seem like you know what he makes, because you keep throwing around the term max money when we're really talking only about 70% of that.

[hodgy03038]

bogg - I know what he makes now and what his contract is. The point is that someone said he would definitely "opt-out" from his option year which is after next season which is like 29+ million. I am saying it would be delusional for him to think that he is so valuable to "anybody" that they would sign a free agent Melo for a long term deal after next year for more than 29 million. I am saying if we picked him up he would be ours this year, next year and the option year (because there is no way that he would opt out). I am saying he is not worth it even at these Horford/Batum salaries.

So the person that said he would definitely opt-out in his option year after next was basically saying we would only be saddled with his salary for this year and next. I disagree AND I do not want him here.

Again, it was me that said he was likely to opt out (nobody said definitely) because he's better offer being a free agent at 34 instead of 35, and you still haven't offered any sort of argument why, in an environment where Luol Deng and Joakim Noah can get $18 million per, there's no way a team would offer Carmelo a deal paying in the mid-20's annually, other than repeating the word "delusional" a whole bunch. However, it doesn't seem like you know what he makes, because you keep throwing around the term max money when we're really talking only about 70% of that.

AGAIN I am saying that he will NOT opt out of his option year because with his 15% trade kicker it makes his salary $32,117,361. I am saying AGAIN that nobody in their right mind is going to BEAT that salary and give him multiple years.

[saltlover]

bogg - I know what he makes now and what his contract is. The point is that someone said he would definitely "opt-out" from his option year which is after next season which is like 29+ million. I am saying it would be delusional for him to think that he is so valuable to "anybody" that they would sign a free agent Melo for a long term deal after next year for more than 29 million. I am saying if we picked him up he would be ours this year, next year and the option year (because there is no way that he would opt out). I am saying he is not worth it even at these Horford/Batum salaries.

So the person that said he would definitely opt-out in his option year after next was basically saying we would only be saddled with his salary for this year and next. I disagree AND I do not want him here.

Again, it was me that said he was likely to opt out (nobody said definitely) because he's better offer being a free agent at 34 instead of 35, and you still haven't offered any sort of argument why, in an environment where Luol Deng and Joakim Noah can get $18 million per, there's no way a team would offer Carmelo a deal paying in the mid-20's annually, other than repeating the word "delusional" a whole bunch. However, it doesn't seem like you know what he makes, because you keep throwing around the term max money when we're really talking only about 70% of that.

AGAIN I am saying that he will NOT opt out of his option year because with his 15% trade kicker it makes his salary $32,117,361. I am saying AGAIN that nobody in their right mind is going to BEAT that salary and give him multiple years.

Player options due not count for trade kickers.  This is because they are a bonus paid immediately at the time of the trade.  The bonus amount is pro-rated over the remaining guaranteed years of the deal.   Melo's salary and cap hit would both be $27.9 million in the option year.  The max that year is forecast to be about $37.5 million.

I don't think Melo would get $28 million in free agency in 2018.  I do think he would average more per year than if he picked up the option and hit free agency in 2019.  I'm not sure he would get enough more to make it worth turning down the option.

I'd only want Ainge to do it if he got ownership clearance for a huge payroll in 2018 (over $200 million including luxury tax.)

[Smitty77]

Vucevic does not play defense. If he comes in, he's coming as as the first big man off the bench.

Horford and Vucevic on D would be a flaming dumpster of a plan.

His contract is reasonable for a very solid back up big man but it takes up too much cap room for the return on investment.


The most likely reason for this rumor is that Ainge and his boys have fed this crap to Blakeley to show whoever else we are potentially dealing with that we have options.

I would honestly rather bring over Zizic because Vucevic provides negative net defensive ability when we are desperate for some defensive toughness in the paint.

I read on RealGM that perhaps Ainge sees Vucevic as a solid trade piece with that contract so acquiring him for 6 months and putting him in our system will make him a far more valuable 12 million in potential trades than Amir would be.

eg on draft night the pick falls to #3 and the Bulls give up Butler. Some teams would prefer Vucevic rather than Amir's expiring.

The problem with this is that I'm pretty sure most teams would prefer Amir's expiring vs Vucevic's 12 million for 2 more years unless they need to hit the salary floor and he would help as a tank commander as a starting center that plays zero defense and helps you lose lots of games while scoring 15ppg and 10rebs per game in heavy minutes.

Chambers,

Please explain to me how that combining a perimeter oriented big in Horford who is an average or slightly below average rebounder with an interior oriented big who is clearly an ABOVE average rebounder "would be a flaming dumpster of a plan?"

Here are V's stats for the last five seasons and his PER's:

2012-2013:  13 points and 12 rebounds in 33 minutes (17.90 PER)
2013-2014:  14 points and 11 rebounds in 32 minutes (18.80 PER)
2014-2015:  19 points and 11 rebounds in 34 minutes (21.60 PER)
2015-2016:  18 points and 9 rebounds in 33 minutes (21.20 PER)
2016-2017:  14 points and 10 rebounds in 28 minutes (18.70 PER)

And, did I mention that this kid is ONLY 26?

Sounds like adding him "would be a flaming dumpster of a plan:-))))))))))))))"

Smitty77

[A Future of Stevens]

Vucevic does not play defense. If he comes in, he's coming as as the first big man off the bench.

Horford and Vucevic on D would be a flaming dumpster of a plan.

His contract is reasonable for a very solid back up big man but it takes up too much cap room for the return on investment.


The most likely reason for this rumor is that Ainge and his boys have fed this crap to Blakeley to show whoever else we are potentially dealing with that we have options.

I would honestly rather bring over Zizic because Vucevic provides negative net defensive ability when we are desperate for some defensive toughness in the paint.

I read on RealGM that perhaps Ainge sees Vucevic as a solid trade piece with that contract so acquiring him for 6 months and putting him in our system will make him a far more valuable 12 million in potential trades than Amir would be.

eg on draft night the pick falls to #3 and the Bulls give up Butler. Some teams would prefer Vucevic rather than Amir's expiring.

The problem with this is that I'm pretty sure most teams would prefer Amir's expiring vs Vucevic's 12 million for 2 more years unless they need to hit the salary floor and he would help as a tank commander as a starting center that plays zero defense and helps you lose lots of games while scoring 15ppg and 10rebs per game in heavy minutes.

Chambers,

Please explain to me how that combining a perimeter oriented big in Horford who is an average or slightly below average rebounder with an interior oriented big who is clearly an ABOVE average rebounder "would be a flaming dumpster of a plan?"

Here are V's stats for the last five seasons and his PER's:

2012-2013:  13 points and 12 rebounds in 33 minutes (17.90 PER)
2013-2014:  14 points and 11 rebounds in 32 minutes (18.80 PER)
2014-2015:  19 points and 11 rebounds in 34 minutes (21.60 PER)
2015-2016:  18 points and 9 rebounds in 33 minutes (21.20 PER)
2016-2017:  14 points and 10 rebounds in 28 minutes (18.70 PER)

And, did I mention that this kid is ONLY 26?

Sounds like adding him "would be a flaming dumpster of a plan:-))))))))))))))"

Smitty77

Not directed at me of course, but I know some circles here have pointed out that the celtics struggle when Horford is stuck defending a perimeter oriented big. He is better as a rim protector.

Enter vucevic. While he would almost certainly solve our rebounding issue, he himself is awful at defense. In particular he is abhorrent at guarding the perimeter. This would force us to move Horford to the 4, increasing the frequency of situations where he has to guard the perimeter.

Im on team bring him in. He cant be worse than Amir, and im tired of the rebounding problems.

[chambers]

Vucevic does not play defense. If he comes in, he's coming as as the first big man off the bench.

Horford and Vucevic on D would be a flaming dumpster of a plan.

His contract is reasonable for a very solid back up big man but it takes up too much cap room for the return on investment.


The most likely reason for this rumor is that Ainge and his boys have fed this crap to Blakeley to show whoever else we are potentially dealing with that we have options.

I would honestly rather bring over Zizic because Vucevic provides negative net defensive ability when we are desperate for some defensive toughness in the paint.

I read on RealGM that perhaps Ainge sees Vucevic as a solid trade piece with that contract so acquiring him for 6 months and putting him in our system will make him a far more valuable 12 million in potential trades than Amir would be.

eg on draft night the pick falls to #3 and the Bulls give up Butler. Some teams would prefer Vucevic rather than Amir's expiring.

The problem with this is that I'm pretty sure most teams would prefer Amir's expiring vs Vucevic's 12 million for 2 more years unless they need to hit the salary floor and he would help as a tank commander as a starting center that plays zero defense and helps you lose lots of games while scoring 15ppg and 10rebs per game in heavy minutes.

Chambers,

Please explain to me how that combining a perimeter oriented big in Horford who is an average or slightly below average rebounder with an interior oriented big who is clearly an ABOVE average rebounder "would be a flaming dumpster of a plan?"

Here are V's stats for the last five seasons and his PER's:

2012-2013:  13 points and 12 rebounds in 33 minutes (17.90 PER)
2013-2014:  14 points and 11 rebounds in 32 minutes (18.80 PER)
2014-2015:  19 points and 11 rebounds in 34 minutes (21.60 PER)
2015-2016:  18 points and 9 rebounds in 33 minutes (21.20 PER)
2016-2017:  14 points and 10 rebounds in 28 minutes (18.70 PER)

And, did I mention that this kid is ONLY 26?

Sounds like adding him "would be a flaming dumpster of a plan:-))))))))))))))"

Smitty77

They would be the worst defensive big man duo in the NBA and teams would torch us on the perimeter and in the pick and roll.

A flaming dumpster of a defensive strategy.

[Bobshot]

FWIW, I believe the latest link posted here on 1/27 said something about Vucevic having improved his D, which seems to be an issue for him. Noel is clearly better defensively, but he'll cost more to re-sign next year. Maybe taking them out of the FA picture. Vucevic has an attractive contract at $12-13M per, and can score/rebound.

I started a thread on Vucevic with the same 1/27 link in the Talk section yesterday, without realizing it was in the Blog forum. Sorry about that. I'm recent, and usually just in the Talk.
Celtics fan since 1952. Ask me anything about history. Have seen them all play.

Anthony has also entered the picture and Butler may also come on the market within days. Ainge has a lot of options here. You have to wonder just what he will do in the next week or 2. I think he needs a rebounder for starters--without giving up any starters.

He may have to weigh Butler vs Anthony--Butler will probably cost that Nets 1 pick, which could well be a true no.1. Anthony could come cheap--little more than his contract and cap fodder. Plus keep that Nets 1.

They seem to be on the cusp of serious competition with the elite teams. Another player right now might do it.

[hodgy03038]

Vucevic has 11 points and 3 rebounds in first 8 minutes.

[Celtics18]

I just want to point out that Vucevic's DRPM and his DRTG per BBR are both very good this season.

I haven't had a chance to watch him play a ton this season, but from what I've seen the eye test backs up that he is an improved defensive player.  He's still relatively slow footed, but his awareness seems much better and he works to get to the right spots.  He also uses his bulk well to disrupt drivers without excessive fouling.  As we know, he is a superb defensive rebounder as well.

The narrative that he is a terrible defender may need to be re-examined.