Fact or Fiction: Isaiah Thomas is now an NBA Superstar

[CelticsBR]

I just read an article on this topic on espn insider, I think.  The conclusion was that Thomas and Kyrie Irving are stars who are a notch below superstars Curry, Westbrook, and Paul because their defense is so bad.  The Cavs are literally no better with Irving on the court than they are with him on the bench or on the injured list.

When this comment is made and only include guards in the discussions, it is easy to run away from the obvious (but important and w/o a clear answer) questions about how much more defensive beasts like Lebron and Kawhi impact the game than Curry or Harden's play

[Moranis]

Thomas is not a superstar.  Those are special players, Thomas is not a special player.

I can accept the idea Thomas is not a "special" player, so long as we understand that the list of "special" players currently in the league is very short.

Off the top of my head (so I might be missing some players) I'd put the list of superstars at: James, Durant, Curry, Westbrook, Harden, Davis, Leonard, and Paul.  I think Cousins, George, Giannis, and Griffin are on the cusp and might be superstars (especially in different team situations).  I'd put Wall, Irving, Butler, DeRozan, Klay, and Lowry as a slight tier ahead of Thomas.  I'd put Love, Hayward, Draymond, Lillard, Walker, Millsap, Drummond, and Aldridge in the same general range as Thomas (you could make a legit argument for any of them ahead of Thomas or Thomas ahead of any of them).  Towns, Wiggins, Embiid, etc. are in a different class as they might someday be superstars or they might not, but they aren't there yet.  And then you have the guys like Dirk, Dwight, Melo, Wade, etc. that were once superstars but are now on the downward slope (some are obviously still better than others) who mix in in the various tiers above.

So I'd have Thomas in the 19-27 range.  That is a very good player, but not a special or superstar player.

[Ilikesports17]

Thomas is not a superstar.  Those are special players, Thomas is not a special player.

I can accept the idea Thomas is not a "special" player, so long as we understand that the list of "special" players currently in the league is very short.

Off the top of my head (so I might be missing some players) I'd put the list of superstars at: James, Durant, Curry, Westbrook, Harden, Davis, Leonard, and Paul.  I think Cousins, George, Giannis, and Griffin are on the cusp and might be superstars (especially in different team situations).  I'd put Wall, Irving, Butler, DeRozan, Klay, and Lowry as a slight tier ahead of Thomas.  I'd put Love, Hayward, Draymond, Lillard, Walker, Millsap, Drummond, and Aldridge in the same general range as Thomas (you could make a legit argument for any of them ahead of Thomas or Thomas ahead of any of them).  Towns, Wiggins, Embiid, etc. are in a different class as they might someday be superstars or they might not, but they aren't there yet.  And then you have the guys like Dirk, Dwight, Melo, Wade, etc. that were once superstars but are now on the downward slope (some are obviously still better than others) who mix in in the various tiers above.

So I'd have Thomas in the 19-27 range.  That is a very good player, but not a special or superstar player.

I personally believe he comes in around 20.

I think Draymond is a tier above him and I think Klay Derozan and Wall are all in his tier. Ive never been a big fan of Thompson, think Derozan and Wall are overrated.

I think you can make a reasonable argument that he belongs anywhere from 10(if you squint) all the way to about 30.

[Vermont Green]

Thomas is playing at a superstar level for most of this season.  If he can keep this up for say 5 seasons, then he would be considered a superstar.  Teams adjust, it gets harder, superstars are able to adjust, we shall see if IT can.

[Moranis]

Thomas is playing at a superstar level for most of this season.  If he can keep this up for say 5 seasons, then he would be considered a superstar.  Teams adjust, it gets harder, superstars are able to adjust, we shall see if IT can.

Offensively sure, but IT is not a very good defender.  Both the eye test and advanced metrics tell you this.  And five years of this level on offense without defensive improvement won't make him a superstar.  It is IT's defense that will always keep him from the superstar level.

[celticsclay]

Thomas is playing at a superstar level for most of this season.  If he can keep this up for say 5 seasons, then he would be considered a superstar.  Teams adjust, it gets harder, superstars are able to adjust, we shall see if IT can.

Offensively sure, but IT is not a very good defender.  Both the eye test and advanced metrics tell you this.  And five years of this level on offense without defensive improvement won't make him a superstar.  It is IT's defense that will always keep him from the superstar level.

Can you name a player in the modern era (the last 20-25 years) that averaged 28 points and 6 assists with decent shooting that was not considered a superstar? It is possible there are people that fit this, but nobody comes to mind. I kind of doubt IT can do that, but if he does average 28 points per more on good shooting for 5 years it would not be possible to act like he wasn't a superstar. 

[LarBrd33]

Definitely no

[Moranis]

Thomas is playing at a superstar level for most of this season.  If he can keep this up for say 5 seasons, then he would be considered a superstar.  Teams adjust, it gets harder, superstars are able to adjust, we shall see if IT can.

Offensively sure, but IT is not a very good defender.  Both the eye test and advanced metrics tell you this.  And five years of this level on offense without defensive improvement won't make him a superstar.  It is IT's defense that will always keep him from the superstar level.

Can you name a player in the modern era (the last 20-25 years) that averaged 28 points and 6 assists with decent shooting that was not considered a superstar? It is possible there are people that fit this, but nobody comes to mind. I kind of doubt IT can do that, but if he does average 28 points per more on good shooting for 5 years it would not be possible to act like he wasn't a superstar.

Guys who put up generally those numbers for multiple seasons (not 5 years, but Thomas hasn't done that either).  Most aren't PG's so they don't have the assists but they do have more rebounds.  Alex English, Adrian Dantley, World B. Free, Jerry Stackhouse, Gilbert Arenas, Bernard King, Kik Vandeweghe.  Then you had guys that did it for a season like Tom Chambers, Mark Aguirre, Dale Ellis.  That of course doesn't account for pace, so if there were seasons where there were a lot less points scored, a guy with 26 ppg, might actually be equivalent to Thomas' 28 ppg of today (like Mitch Richmond, Glen Rice, etc.).  I'm not doing the math to figure that one out.

Of course those guys all have the defense problem that Thomas has, which is why they weren't considered superstars (though someone like Arenas was arguably a superstar during his prime). 

[LarBrd33]

I'm with Mark Cuban in that I don't consider Russell Westbrook a superstar.  So I sure as hell don't consider Thomas one.

People have different definitions of Superstar.  Some think it's anyone who makes an all-star team.  Some think it's anyone who makes an All-NBA 1st team.  Some think it's anyone who wins MVP.  I'd say all three are wrong.  I never considered Rose or Nash "superstars" for instance despite them winning MVP awards.  SUperstars are the transcendent players that rarely come around.  Wilt.  Kareem.  Magic.  Bird.  Jordan.  Hakeem.  Shaq.  Duncan.  LeBron.  Embiid.  Simmons.  It's a short list. 

[Diggles]

Embiid and Simmons are not there yet.... so take them off.   

[Celtics18]

I'm with Mark Cuban in that I don't consider Russell Westbrook a superstar.  So I sure as hell don't consider Thomas one.

People have different definitions of Superstar.  Some think it's anyone who makes an all-star team.  Some think it's anyone who makes an All-NBA 1st team.  Some think it's anyone who wins MVP.  I'd say all three are wrong.  I never considered Rose or Nash "superstars" for instance despite them winning MVP awards.  SUperstars are the transcendent players that rarely come around.  Wilt.  Kareem.  Magic.  Bird.  Jordan.  Hakeem.  Shaq.  Duncan.  LeBron.  Embiid.  Simmons.  It's a short list.

By your definition, how many do you see in the league right now?

One, two . . . ?

[Celtics18]

I'm with Mark Cuban in that I don't consider Russell Westbrook a superstar.  So I sure as hell don't consider Thomas one.

People have different definitions of Superstar.  Some think it's anyone who makes an all-star team.  Some think it's anyone who makes an All-NBA 1st team.  Some think it's anyone who wins MVP.  I'd say all three are wrong.  I never considered Rose or Nash "superstars" for instance despite them winning MVP awards.  SUperstars are the transcendent players that rarely come around.  Wilt.  Kareem.  Magic.  Bird.  Jordan.  Hakeem.  Shaq.  Duncan.  LeBron.  Embiid.  Simmons.  It's a short list.

Haha.  I see what you did there.  Good one.

[LarBrd33]

I'm with Mark Cuban in that I don't consider Russell Westbrook a superstar.  So I sure as hell don't consider Thomas one.

People have different definitions of Superstar.  Some think it's anyone who makes an all-star team.  Some think it's anyone who makes an All-NBA 1st team.  Some think it's anyone who wins MVP.  I'd say all three are wrong.  I never considered Rose or Nash "superstars" for instance despite them winning MVP awards.  SUperstars are the transcendent players that rarely come around.  Wilt.  Kareem.  Magic.  Bird.  Jordan.  Hakeem.  Shaq.  Duncan.  LeBron.  Embiid.  Simmons.  It's a short list.

By your definition, how many do you see in the league right now?

One, two . . . ?

I don't think there's a set number of superstars every year.  Some say it's the Top 5 players in the league at any given time.  I don't agree with that either.  LeBron is a superstar.  I honestly saw Durant as a superstar - which made it super depressing that he joined a 73 win team like a chump. 

It's really hard to argue against the idea that Steph Curry played like a superstar last year.  He was unbelievable.  Unprecedented shooting.

I just know that I don't see Westbrook as a superstar.  That said, I think guys like James Harden, etc are really good players.   The talent level in the league right now is really high.  There's a lot of great players that aren't superstars. 

I don't see any definition that qualifies Thomas a superstar unless you just call the top 30 players in the league "superstars".  I'm not even sure Thomas is the best player on his own team.

[Celtics18]

I'm with Mark Cuban in that I don't consider Russell Westbrook a superstar.  So I sure as hell don't consider Thomas one.

People have different definitions of Superstar.  Some think it's anyone who makes an all-star team.  Some think it's anyone who makes an All-NBA 1st team.  Some think it's anyone who wins MVP.  I'd say all three are wrong.  I never considered Rose or Nash "superstars" for instance despite them winning MVP awards.  SUperstars are the transcendent players that rarely come around.  Wilt.  Kareem.  Magic.  Bird.  Jordan.  Hakeem.  Shaq.  Duncan.  LeBron.  Embiid.  Simmons.  It's a short list.

By your definition, how many do you see in the league right now?

One, two . . . ?

I don't think there's a set number of superstars every year.  Some say it's the Top 5 players in the league at any given time.  I don't agree with that either.  LeBron is a superstar.  I honestly saw Durant as a superstar - which made it super depressing that he joined a 73 win team like a chump. 

It's really hard to argue against the idea that Steph Curry played like a superstar last year.  He was unbelievable.  Unprecedented shooting.

I just know that I don't see Westbrook as a superstar.  That said, I think guys like James Harden, etc are really good players.   The talent level in the league right now is really high.  There's a lot of great players that aren't superstars.

By your stringent definition, I could see Steph Curry ultimately being remembered as a guy who had an amazing couple of years at the height of his career, even leading his team to a title, but still not quite in that elusive, rarefied "superstar" category.

My money is on Giannis as the next generation player most likely to get placed into the All Time Greats category.

[LarBrd33]

I'm with Mark Cuban in that I don't consider Russell Westbrook a superstar.  So I sure as hell don't consider Thomas one.

People have different definitions of Superstar.  Some think it's anyone who makes an all-star team.  Some think it's anyone who makes an All-NBA 1st team.  Some think it's anyone who wins MVP.  I'd say all three are wrong.  I never considered Rose or Nash "superstars" for instance despite them winning MVP awards.  SUperstars are the transcendent players that rarely come around.  Wilt.  Kareem.  Magic.  Bird.  Jordan.  Hakeem.  Shaq.  Duncan.  LeBron.  Embiid.  Simmons.  It's a short list.

By your definition, how many do you see in the league right now?

One, two . . . ?

I don't think there's a set number of superstars every year.  Some say it's the Top 5 players in the league at any given time.  I don't agree with that either.  LeBron is a superstar.  I honestly saw Durant as a superstar - which made it super depressing that he joined a 73 win team like a chump. 

It's really hard to argue against the idea that Steph Curry played like a superstar last year.  He was unbelievable.  Unprecedented shooting.

I just know that I don't see Westbrook as a superstar.  That said, I think guys like James Harden, etc are really good players.   The talent level in the league right now is really high.  There's a lot of great players that aren't superstars.

By your stringent definition, I could see Steph Curry ultimately being remembered as a guy who had an amazing couple of years at the height of his career, even leading his team to a title, but still not quite in that elusive, rarefied "superstar" category.

My money is on Giannis as the next generation player most likely to get placed into the All Time Greats category.

I agree with that.   Giannis, Towns, Davis and Embiid are all players who seem to have a chance of getting there.  Possibly Simmons too, but we haven't even seen him play yet.