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Author Topic: Marcus Smart is not a small forward, let Jaylen Brown backup Crowder  (Read 5651 times)

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Marcus Smart is not a small forward, let Jaylen Brown backup Crowder
« on: December 18, 2016, 10:01:16 AM »

Offline Chris22

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What's hurt Boston this season is Stevens' preference to close the second quarter with three-guard lineups that often sub Smart in place of Johnson in Boston's starting five. While that group has played only 13 total second-quarter minutes this season, it owns a cringe-worthy net rating of minus-72.9. Stevens has admitted there's a large enough sample size now that suggests Boston simply cannot go with that three-guard set unless there's a favorable matchup.
http://www.espn.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4724711/forget-the-starters-celtics-are-looking-for-second-helpings
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Re: Marcus Smart is not a small forward, let Jaylen Brown backup Crowder
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2016, 10:11:05 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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Read that article about the Cs poor second quarters this morning, too. Seems the right solution is play Brown or Smart more in the first quarter and bring in Crowder to close out the half.
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Re: Marcus Smart is not a small forward, let Jaylen Brown backup Crowder
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2016, 10:16:39 AM »

Offline hwangjini_1

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Quote from: Chris22 on December 18, 2016, 10:01:16 AM
What's hurt Boston this season is Stevens' preference to close the second quarter with three-guard lineups that often sub Smart in place of Johnson in Boston's starting five. While that group has played only 13 total second-quarter minutes this season, it owns a cringe-worthy net rating of minus-72.9. Stevens has admitted there's a large enough sample size now that suggests Boston simply cannot go with that three-guard set unless there's a favorable matchup.
http://www.espn.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4724711/forget-the-starters-celtics-are-looking-for-second-helpings
thanks for the thread and analysis. but it seems to stop short of what the thread title promises.

would you also be able to share your thoughts and analysis of why brown would solve the problem you point to here? thanks.
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Re: Marcus Smart is not a small forward, let Jaylen Brown backup Crowder
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2016, 10:32:11 AM »

Offline GreenWarrior

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a line up consisting of Crowder, Smart, IT, AB and Horford unfortunately is our best lineup. I hate small ball, I hate 2 PG's on the floor at the same time...i'd love to see proof where this has led to a championship.

Smart, AB and Crowder are fairly redundant to the point it's overkill of the same player at 3 positions... also makes us pretty easy to defend even with IT and Horford out there because those 3 guys do the same thing on offense - take 2 dribbles, look to pass. if it's true we didn't want to trade crowder for butler that's a major oops because an upgrade in talent is the 1st thing any team is looking for.

anyway, not sure if this is a "Smart-bashing thread" or a "Jaylen is better than Jordan thread", then again with this board it's probably a lil both. 
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Re: Marcus Smart is not a small forward, let Jaylen Brown backup Crowder
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2016, 10:35:22 AM »

Offline BlackCeltic

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Quote from: Chris22 on December 18, 2016, 10:01:16 AM
What's hurt Boston this season is Stevens' preference to close the second quarter with three-guard lineups that often sub Smart in place of Johnson in Boston's starting five. While that group has played only 13 total second-quarter minutes this season, it owns a cringe-worthy net rating of minus-72.9. Stevens has admitted there's a large enough sample size now that suggests Boston simply cannot go with that three-guard set unless there's a favorable matchup.
http://www.espn.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4724711/forget-the-starters-celtics-are-looking-for-second-helpings

The main thing that has hurt Boston this season is allowing Jonas Jerebco any playing time.
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Re: Marcus Smart is not a small forward, let Jaylen Brown backup Crowder
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2016, 10:46:46 AM »

Offline The Oracle

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Quote from: GreenWarrior on December 18, 2016, 10:32:11 AM
a line up consisting of Crowder, Smart, IT, AB and Horford unfortunately is our best lineup. I hate small ball, I hate 2 PG's on the floor at the same time...i'd love to see proof where this has led to a championship.

Smart, AB and Crowder are fairly redundant to the point it's overkill of the same player at 3 positions... also makes us pretty easy to defend even with IT and Horford out there because those 3 guys do the same thing on offense - take 2 dribbles, look to pass. if it's true we didn't want to trade crowder for butler that's a major oops because an upgrade in talent is the 1st thing any team is looking for.

anyway, not sure if this is a "Smart-bashing thread" or a "Jaylen is better than Jordan thread", then again with this board it's probably a lil both. 
That lineup of I.T./Bradley/Smart/Crowder/Horford has played 42 minutes and produced an offensive rating of 105.6 and a defensive rating of 138.1 for a net rating of -32.5.  That is in no way the best lineup the C's can put on the floor. 

Small ball has been terrible ever since Brad began using it more often in the middle of last year.  When he sends out I.T./Bradley/Smart and then further complicates it by going small at the PF with Crowder it makes it even worse resulting in very poor defense and rebounding.
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Re: Marcus Smart is not a small forward, let Jaylen Brown backup Crowder
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2016, 10:54:06 AM »

Offline MBunge

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The issue with Smart is that Stevens is determined to play Rozier, which means instead of a three guard rotation where Smart is mostly a point guard, we get a four guard rotation where Smart spends too much time off the ball.

The priority on playing Rozier also causes a chain reaction rotation issue where there are no minutes for Green or Young and fewer minutes for Jaylen.  Given how Crowder has looked at times this season, it's nuts those three have been glued to the bench.

I have to think Ainge has told Stevens to play Rozier to pump up his trade value.  He's played well at times but not enough to justify this many minutes on a team with these options.

Mike
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Re: Marcus Smart is not a small forward, let Jaylen Brown backup Crowder
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2016, 11:05:18 AM »

Offline pearljammer10

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The three guard lineup works in spurts or against a favorable matchup but when we get caught using it too much it hurts us severely. teams with length (Barnes in Dallas, GSW) just destroyed that lineup cause all they had to do was catch at the elbow, square up, and they had a wide open look because no defender was within 4 or 5 inches of them.
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Re: Marcus Smart is not a small forward, let Jaylen Brown backup Crowder
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2016, 11:05:31 AM »

Offline BitterJim

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Quote from: BlackCeltic on December 18, 2016, 10:35:22 AM
Quote from: Chris22 on December 18, 2016, 10:01:16 AM
What's hurt Boston this season is Stevens' preference to close the second quarter with three-guard lineups that often sub Smart in place of Johnson in Boston's starting five. While that group has played only 13 total second-quarter minutes this season, it owns a cringe-worthy net rating of minus-72.9. Stevens has admitted there's a large enough sample size now that suggests Boston simply cannot go with that three-guard set unless there's a favorable matchup.
http://www.espn.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4724711/forget-the-starters-celtics-are-looking-for-second-helpings

The main thing that has hurt Boston this season is allowing Jonas Jerebco any playing time.

What? Jerebko is shooting 39.6% on 3s (best among our bigs), 54.4% on 2s (second only to Amir Johnson), rebounds at roughly the same rate as all of our rotation bigs (only Zeller is significantly better), and has a Net Rating of +1.5.

This team has had a lot of issues this year, but Jerebko has been a bright spot. I don't know how anyone that's paying attention could think that he's been an issue, never mind our main issue
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Re: Marcus Smart is not a small forward, let Jaylen Brown backup Crowder
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2016, 11:07:38 AM »

Offline jpotter33

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I agree that unit is a bit too small for many lineups, though it is still probably useful against many lineups, such as GS's death lineup and Cleveland with Love at center.

I'd like to see Brown in that lineup instead of Smart, especially once Brown's defense continues to develop. However, I kind of agree about us potentially showcasing Rozier right now, and I kind of think that's why we're not playing Brown all that much at times.

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Re: Marcus Smart is not a small forward, let Jaylen Brown backup Crowder
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2016, 11:49:28 AM »

Offline mctyson

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Quote from: MBunge on December 18, 2016, 10:54:06 AM
The issue with Smart is that Stevens is determined to play Rozier, which means instead of a three guard rotation where Smart is mostly a point guard, we get a four guard rotation where Smart spends too much time off the ball.

Even if he didn't play Rozier (who deserves to play), Smart would have to get time off the ball to play significant minutes.  There are only 48 minutes in a game, and if IT gets 30 then Smart gets only 18.

I would like to see IT get fewer minutes in the first quarter, so Marcus can play the PG with Horford on the court. 

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Re: Marcus Smart is not a small forward, let Jaylen Brown backup Crowder
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2016, 11:56:56 AM »

Offline mctyson

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I am looking through the 5-man lineups and these are clearly the two worst that have played more than 20 mins together:

Thomas - Bradley - Smart - Olynyk - Amir
Thomas - Bradley - Smart - Crowder - Horford

That first lineup will not be seen much as that was a product of Horford missing 10 games.  But the point still stands that when you have IT, Bradley, and Smart together on the court they are struggling.
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Re: Marcus Smart is not a small forward, let Jaylen Brown backup Crowder
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2016, 11:57:38 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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The issue is there are too many small guards that have earned minutes to fully play them. 


I like what each of them does on the court.   The size issue limits the ability to play them all the minutes they could provide to help the team. 


One of them is going to be moved in the future for another useful piece that fits better with the team's need or as part of a bigger package. 




As for Brown and more minutes at SF, I think he is slowly earning those minutes while balancing the need for this team to win.  Those minutes will come as the season progresses.


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Re: Marcus Smart is not a small forward, let Jaylen Brown backup Crowder
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2016, 12:09:39 PM »

Offline jambr380

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I definitely agree with getting Brown more minutes - I don't really care whose minutes he is taking, he just needs to be on the court more often. There is such a thing as a double standard (earning minutes) when you take a player 3rd in the draft - sorry Green and Young.

As for Rozier, I think he is playing just the right amount. I like the Rozier/Smart line-ups where Rozier pushes the ball up the floor and Smart runs the offensive half-court sets - they both have their strengths. I am not 100% sure if Rozier is being showcased; if so, I hope teams see him as a major piece and not just a throw-in. He may not be a player we just want to dump off with his insane speed/athleticism and ability to hit from outside/get to the hoop.
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Re: Marcus Smart is not a small forward, let Jaylen Brown backup Crowder
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2016, 12:17:24 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Rozier isnt being showcased. He is simply playing the minutes he has earned with his good play. If you cant see his development over the last year and a half that has earned him these minutes, thats on you. Danny doesnt tell Stevens who to play. Ainge has made that quite clear in the past.
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