New Marcus Smart comparison?

[Vermont Green]

I see a smaller version of Metta World Peace.  His best skills are his lock down defense and toughness.  I don't think he is quick enough to be a point guard and cannot shoot well enough to be a starting two guard. I see him more as that junk yard dog guy which every team needs.

This is a great comparison.  I'll second it.   Smart is a shorter poor man's Ron Artest.  Young Artest put up similar shooting percentages, but was a beast defensively.

Why do you say poor man's Ron Artest (MWP)?  Nevermind, I know.

The athlete formally known as Ron Artest (MWP) is bigger and thereby versatile in different ways but Smart is every bit as valuable as MWP was at 22.

I doubt Smart will have the durability of MWP, that I concede. 

[green_bballers13]

I'd be psyched to have Ron Artest on my team, before he hits his prime.

[celticsclay]

I see a smaller version of Metta World Peace.  His best skills are his lock down defense and toughness.  I don't think he is quick enough to be a point guard and cannot shoot well enough to be a starting two guard. I see him more as that junk yard dog guy which every team needs.

This is a great comparison.  I'll second it.   Smart is a shorter poor man's Ron Artest.  Young Artest put up similar shooting percentages, but was a beast defensively.

Why do you say poor man's Ron Artest (MWP)?  Nevermind, I know.

The athlete formally known as Ron Artest (MWP) is bigger and thereby versatile in different ways but Smart is every bit as valuable as MWP was at 22.

I doubt Smart will have the durability of MWP, that I concede.

For anyone that doesn't know the routine, it is present in every post he makes about Smart. Here is the template he uses when writing about him that wikileaks got a hold of.

[insert negative comment about Smart containing a jab or compare him to unimpressive player] + [mention historically bad shooting performance for guard] + [add comment hoping you really hope he takes a leap] + [(optional) mention personally prefer smart to randle with additional jab that nobody else prefers smart]

Edit: For those interested in the comparison without the "poor man's jab Artest shot 40% overall and 29% from 3 in his second season. A bit better than Smart, but certainly not a dead eye shooter.

[GratefulCs]

I see a smaller version of Metta World Peace.  His best skills are his lock down defense and toughness.  I don't think he is quick enough to be a point guard and cannot shoot well enough to be a starting two guard. I see him more as that junk yard dog guy which every team needs.

This is a great comparison.  I'll second it.   Smart is a shorter poor man's Ron Artest.  Young Artest put up similar shooting percentages, but was a beast defensively.

i don't know if we should give marcus THAT much credit

He's more like a marcus banks 2.0

[PhoSita]

I do really feel like people are being quick to say "smart is what he is" or running out of patience with him when he is an age a lot of players now that people used to come into the league at. I remember a lot of people, possibly also myself, were thinking Bradley was what he was after 3 season when he was 22 because he had been around so long.

Bradley came into the league young, raw, and timid, with really excellent physical attributes.  He was held back by his lack of confidence and polish, and also by injuries, early in his career.

Since then, he's added something to his game pretty much every year and has blossomed into a key piece on both ends, as well as taking the mantle of longest-tenured Celtic.  He's gone from being a deer in headlights to a guy who knows exactly where he wants his shots and takes those shots without hesitation.


Smart, by comparison, has been much the same sort of player since he came into the league. 

Now, I will say that I've seen improvements in the mental aspects of Smart's game.  Decision making, running the pick and roll, passing.

But his shooting has been more or less the same since he entered the league.  He's streaky, and doesn't lack for confidence.  He shows flashes as a finisher, and has stretches where he gets to the line, but for the most part his offensive game is limited to the area beyond 15 feet from the basket because he can't really get by anybody.

He's not working with an overabundance of physical ability.  At the same time, he hustles and competes and is excellent defensively.  His confidence is sky high, and he brings intangibles onto the floor -- leadership, intensity, pride, persistence.

I could see him putting up more counting stats if he had to play a bigger role in terms of minutes and shot attempts.  But as far as taking a leap to become a different category of player, I don't see it. 

He's never been a terribly efficient scorer at any level.  That's been true when he's had an outsized role in his team's offense and handled the ball a lot, and it's been true when he's played a smaller role and played more off the ball. 


I don't regard all of this as negative talk.  Smart being what he is means he is a valuable defensive role player who can be relied upon to be on the floor in big moments and make clutch plays.  He's just not a star or a consistent two-way option you can install as a core part of your gameplan.  That's OK, though it is a little bit disappointing in light of where he was drafted.

And if that is especially disappointing because it seems we make that rationalization with a lot of Ainge picks -- "He's a really solid contributor and a good value for where he was drafted, even though he's never going to be a genuine star" -- well, that disappointment is to be directed at Ainge, not at Marcus.

[tankcity!]

Ron Artest is an okay comp I guess, but that would be Smart's ceiling. Below you will see that Artest would score 18-22 points a game in his prime. And he could guard Kobe or Lebron. Something Smart can't do because of his height. I would love if we had an Artest.

I think Tony Allen is a good comp. I like Hinrich too. Below is a link to Artest's stats. Read it and weep. At least he shot over 40% for most of his career.

http://www.espn.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/25/metta-world-peace

[celticsclay]

I do really feel like people are being quick to say "smart is what he is" or running out of patience with him when he is an age a lot of players now that people used to come into the league at. I remember a lot of people, possibly also myself, were thinking Bradley was what he was after 3 season when he was 22 because he had been around so long.

Bradley came into the league young, raw, and timid, with really excellent physical attributes.  He was held back by his lack of confidence and polish, and also by injuries, early in his career.

Since then, he's added something to his game pretty much every year and has blossomed into a key piece on both ends, as well as taking the mantle of longest-tenured Celtic.  He's gone from being a deer in headlights to a guy who knows exactly where he wants his shots and takes those shots without hesitation.


Smart, by comparison, has been much the same sort of player since he came into the league. 

Now, I will say that I've seen improvements in the mental aspects of Smart's game.  Decision making, running the pick and roll, passing.

But his shooting has been more or less the same since he entered the league.  He's streaky, and doesn't lack for confidence.  He shows flashes as a finisher, and has stretches where he gets to the line, but for the most part his offensive game is limited to the area beyond 15 feet from the basket because he can't really get by anybody.

He's not working with an overabundance of physical ability.  At the same time, he hustles and competes and is excellent defensively.  His confidence is sky high, and he brings intangibles onto the floor -- leadership, intensity, pride, persistence.

I could see him putting up more counting stats if he had to play a bigger role in terms of minutes and shot attempts.  But as far as taking a leap to become a different category of player, I don't see it. 

He's never been a terribly efficient scorer at any level.  That's been true when he's had an outsized role in his team's offense and handled the ball a lot, and it's been true when he's played a smaller role and played more off the ball. 


I don't regard all of this as negative talk.  Smart being what he is means he is a valuable defensive role player who can be relied upon to be on the floor in big moments and make clutch plays.  He's just not a star or a consistent two-way option you can install as a core part of your gameplan.  That's OK, though it is a little bit disappointing in light of where he was drafted.

And if that is especially disappointing because it seems we make that rationalization with a lot of Ainge picks -- "He's a really solid contributor and a good value for where he was drafted, even though he's never going to be a genuine star" -- well, that disappointment is to be directed at Ainge, not at Marcus.

Again this seems to underscore what I view as not having a lot of patience. He has played 139 games in his entire career. Two full seasons would be 150-162 for most players. He also had his role change significantly in his first season playing with Rondo controlling the ball versus playing with IT having the ball versus than having Evan Turner be the primary creator versus now leading the second unit offense. If we are to say that these 139 he hasn't shown enough improvements I feel like that is lacking observing how much his role has shifted around.

With respect to Bradley I don't really think you are being entirely accurate. After he came out and replaced Allen in the starting lineup in 2011-2012 just about everyone was pumped cause he was cutting to the basket and getting points, shooting an astonishing 50% from 2 on over 6 attempts a game (just pointing out it was low volume, but not like 2 shots a game) and 40% from 3 (on low volume only 1 attempt a game) while playing really elite defense.

In his 3rd season, and yes injuries were a part, he slumped very badly dropping down nearly 10% shooting on 2 more attempts a game.  You are not accurately remembering if you don't remember this big dip with lots of fans wondering what was wrong with him and what had happened. He then rebounded in his 4th season and showed steady improvement since then for the most part.
 

[GratefulCs]

Ron Artest is an okay comp I guess, but that would be Smart's ceiling. Below you will see that Artest would score 18-22 points a game in his prime. And he could guard Kobe or Lebron. Something Smart can't do because of his height. I would love if we had an Artest.

I think Tony Allen is a good comp. I like Hinrich too. Below is a link to Artest's stats. Read it and weep. At least he shot over 40% for most of his career.

http://www.espn.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/25/metta-world-peace

if marcus doesn't pan out, shouldn't we all be weeping?

I mean, we're all celtics fans, right?

[celticsclay]

Ron Artest is an okay comp I guess, but that would be Smart's ceiling. Below you will see that Artest would score 18-22 points a game in his prime. And he could guard Kobe or Lebron. Something Smart can't do because of his height. I would love if we had an Artest.

I think Tony Allen is a good comp. I like Hinrich too. Below is a link to Artest's stats. Read it and weep. At least he shot over 40% for most of his career.

http://www.espn.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/25/metta-world-peace

if marcus doesn't pan out, shouldn't we all be weeping?

I mean, we're all celtics fans, right?

yea I don't get this. It seems like some people would be happy if he never develops and doesn't stick around the league.

[GratefulCs]

Ron Artest is an okay comp I guess, but that would be Smart's ceiling. Below you will see that Artest would score 18-22 points a game in his prime. And he could guard Kobe or Lebron. Something Smart can't do because of his height. I would love if we had an Artest.

I think Tony Allen is a good comp. I like Hinrich too. Below is a link to Artest's stats. Read it and weep. At least he shot over 40% for most of his career.

http://www.espn.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/25/metta-world-peace

if marcus doesn't pan out, shouldn't we all be weeping?

I mean, we're all celtics fans, right?

yea I don't get this. It seems like some people would be happy if he never develops and doesn't stick around the league.

it's honestly really weird

He's our guy. He has gotten better. He's not the best player in the world, but we can appreciate what he brings to the team.

I just refuse to write him off before he turns 27

[celticsclay]

Ron Artest is an okay comp I guess, but that would be Smart's ceiling. Below you will see that Artest would score 18-22 points a game in his prime. And he could guard Kobe or Lebron. Something Smart can't do because of his height. I would love if we had an Artest.

I think Tony Allen is a good comp. I like Hinrich too. Below is a link to Artest's stats. Read it and weep. At least he shot over 40% for most of his career.

http://www.espn.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/25/metta-world-peace

if marcus doesn't pan out, shouldn't we all be weeping?

I mean, we're all celtics fans, right?

yea I don't get this. It seems like some people would be happy if he never develops and doesn't stick around the league.

it's honestly really weird

He's our guy. He has gotten better. He's not the best player in the world, but we can appreciate what he brings to the team.

I just refuse to write him off before he turns 27

The only thing I can think of is that he was our first high lottery pick that played for us a super long time (unless I am forgetting someone). It looks like he was our highest pick that played for immediately since Chauncey Billups in 1997 (Jeff Green and Foye went off to other teams). I think our lack of having high lottery picks makes us have ideas of what they should be and how good they should be immediately. The guy has played 139 games.

[ThePaintedArea]

The question Celtics fans should be asking is: how come Brad Stevens values him so highly? He calls him the "sixth starter".

[PhoSita]

Again this seems to underscore what I view as not having a lot of patience. He has played 139 games in his entire career. Two full seasons would be 150-162 for most players. He also had his role change significantly in his first season playing with Rondo controlling the ball versus playing with IT having the ball versus than having Evan Turner be the primary creator versus now leading the second unit offense. If we are to say that these 139 he hasn't shown enough improvements I feel like that is lacking observing how much his role has shifted around.

I'm curious what examples there are of players roughly 6-6'4,'' with a shot selection skewed heavily toward outside jumpers, who went from drastic inefficiency (i.e. <45% EFG) and scoring 8-12 ppg in their first 2-3 seasons, to the production of an above average starter.

The only guy who comes to mind is Billups, and he was an above average to very good three point shooter from his second season (age 22) and on.  I suppose you could point to Mo Williams, but he was a pretty good overall shooter all along, even if his three point accuracy wasn't always consistent.

The other guys with that kind of profile all became career role players -- Jamaal Tinsley, Lindsey Hunter, Flip Murray, etc.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

Again this seems to underscore what I view as not having a lot of patience. He has played 139 games in his entire career. Two full seasons would be 150-162 for most players. He also had his role change significantly in his first season playing with Rondo controlling the ball versus playing with IT having the ball versus than having Evan Turner be the primary creator versus now leading the second unit offense. If we are to say that these 139 he hasn't shown enough improvements I feel like that is lacking observing how much his role has shifted around.

I'm curious what examples there are of players roughly 6-6'4,'' with a shot selection skewed heavily toward outside jumpers, who went from drastic inefficiency (i.e. <45% EFG) and scoring 8-12 ppg in their first 2-3 seasons, to the production of an above average starter.

The only guy who comes to mind is Billups, and he was an above average to very good three point shooter from his second season (age 22) and on.  I suppose you could point to Mo Williams, but he was a pretty good overall shooter all along, even if his three point accuracy wasn't always consistent.

The other guys with that kind of profile all became career role players -- Jamaal Tinsley, Lindsey Hunter, Flip Murray, etc.

When it comes down to it, I think Smart will end up having a very similar impact as Billups. They are not the same players, but their competitiveness, ability to hit the big shot, and toughness are similar.

If we want Smart to be a passing point guard like Paul, or a slashing point guard like Westbrook, I think we are going to be disappointed. He needs to be himself. I think he is good enough to swing a playoff series and form his own archetype of combo guard.

Whether that makes him a household name, or whether the media considers him a "star," I doubt it, but I do think his impact is and will be significant on the court for a long time.

[droopdog7]

I've heard and read a number of comparisons for Smart since he's been here.  I generally have been extremely tough on him but most of that is in response to folks overvaluing his worth or calling him a future star because he was the sixth pick in the draft.  He certainly hasn't displayed much of a skill set on the offensive end and defensive star pretty much screams role player to me. 

In terms of comps, far and away the best one I have read is Kirk Heinrich.  Gritty, very good defender, undersized guard with limited offensive game.  I don't really believe in people's comments about being clutch because generally, I do not believe that being clutch is real.  And in Marcus' case, he would be sh**t out of luck if he had to be a primary scorer at the end of games.  His clutchness depends almost entirely on other teams not paying him any attention.