Author Topic: If Boston didn't take Brown where do you think he would have gone?  (Read 29817 times)

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Re: If Boston didn't take Brown where do you think he would have gone?
« Reply #120 on: September 07, 2016, 03:33:29 PM »

Offline TheSundanceKid

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OK so lets break this down.

3. Dunn (this is the premise of the thread)
4. Either Bender or Brown (I think it would have been close but for the sake of this let's say they take Bender)
5. Murray/Hield/Brown (They wanted a pg for the future so Murray makes the most sense, could have gone for any)
6. Hield/Brown (I think they had Hield pegged the whole way, fits in with the development of Davis nicely)
7. Brown/Chriss (At this point is there really any doubt that Brown is picked? Chriss duplicates what they already have and I really don't think people viewed him in the same bracket as Brown

I've done this as a worst case for Brown. He could easily have gone 4,5,6. If you were trading up to 8 you were trading for Chriss or below. 3-7 in this draft were in their own tier above the others. If Chriss had been in that tier then I really don't think Sacramento trade down, particularly as they selected big men anyway.

So for the premise of this thread, no we would not have been able to grab Brown at 8
Nurkic and Jokic are both really centers.  They took Hernangomez who is a PF/C at 15.  They have Gallinari and Chandler already at the SF spot.  I think there is a very good chance they would have taken Chriss at 7 if all the top tier guards were off the board.  They certainly could have taken Brown (which is what I've said in this thread), but I wouldn't just write Chriss off as no possibility.  I mean heck they have Mudiay and took Murray anyway.  They were just going for value and maybe they had Chriss ahead of Brown on their board.
Quite possibly that could have been the case. However I don't see Galinari and particularly Chandler as long term options at SF for them. In fact Galinari would be a nice stretch 4 if he could stay healthy. As for Murray I think he is a good fit with Mudiay because of his shooting ability. He is a more natural 2, however if Dunn was gone I could have seen the Wolves developing him as a pg.

Chriss got a lot of hype in the weeks leading up to the draft but i had a hard time believing it. He's extremely raw, almost as much as Skal. With Brown, a guy who was proven pre college and has a game generally accepted to be more suited to the NBA, still available I just can't see how Chriss would be picked above him

Re: If Boston didn't take Brown where do you think he would have gone?
« Reply #121 on: September 07, 2016, 04:22:43 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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OK so lets break this down.

3. Dunn (this is the premise of the thread)
4. Either Bender or Brown (I think it would have been close but for the sake of this let's say they take Bender)
5. Murray/Hield/Brown (They wanted a pg for the future so Murray makes the most sense, could have gone for any)
6. Hield/Brown (I think they had Hield pegged the whole way, fits in with the development of Davis nicely)
7. Brown/Chriss (At this point is there really any doubt that Brown is picked? Chriss duplicates what they already have and I really don't think people viewed him in the same bracket as Brown

I've done this as a worst case for Brown. He could easily have gone 4,5,6. If you were trading up to 8 you were trading for Chriss or below. 3-7 in this draft were in their own tier above the others. If Chriss had been in that tier then I really don't think Sacramento trade down, particularly as they selected big men anyway.

So for the premise of this thread, no we would not have been able to grab Brown at 8
Nurkic and Jokic are both really centers.  They took Hernangomez who is a PF/C at 15.  They have Gallinari and Chandler already at the SF spot.  I think there is a very good chance they would have taken Chriss at 7 if all the top tier guards were off the board.  They certainly could have taken Brown (which is what I've said in this thread), but I wouldn't just write Chriss off as no possibility.  I mean heck they have Mudiay and took Murray anyway.  They were just going for value and maybe they had Chriss ahead of Brown on their board.
I agree with everyone else that it likely comes down to Denver deciding between Chriss and Brown at #7.   I did a bit of research to see if there were any hints which way that org was leaning.  I couldn't really find a definitive answer.  All I know is, everything I read suggested Denver was desperate to add shooters.  They ended up taking Murray (off the board in this scenario), Petr Cornelie (another quality shooter), Juan Hernangomez (another decent shooter).   This doesn't look like a team that would have wanted an unanimous "weak shooter" like Jaylen Brown.   I think their decision between Chriss and Brown comes down to which one they think would have been able to shoot better.  Seems to me, Chriss would get the nod.

So then it comes down to whether or not the Kings would take Brown as the many draftniks had them taking.   All bets are off with the Kings.  They probably take THon Maker or something.  Seriously... the Kings probably still trade away that pick in a re-draft.  Or they make some boneheaded reach.

Quote
"Based on all the info I can find, the Kings only got 1 prospect ranked in our Top 30 in for a workout — Wade Baldwin," writes ESPN's Chad Ford. "They didn’t even get medicals on most of the top 10 prospects. They’ve been completely shunned by agents."

Next on the board is Toronto.  Masai is a smart man.  He would take Jaylen 9th as a pure value grab. 
« Last Edit: September 07, 2016, 04:28:18 PM by LarBrd33 »

Re: If Boston didn't take Brown where do you think he would have gone?
« Reply #122 on: September 07, 2016, 05:22:07 PM »

Offline tankcity!

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I think Phoenix would've taken him tbh. Anyways, crazy to think the Celtics picked Brown if he was going to be drafted 8th. Just means this draft is garbage. Let's hope the Celtics jumped on Brown because they knew something. I sure felt that way about him. I was shocked the Celtics liked him as well since everyone had been so negative on him.

He can dribble for a rookie at his height, great first step, unlike Jeff Green actually gets close to the rim instead of going away from the rim and trying to lay it up, and he has great intangibles. I mean the dude has the tools to be great. All he needs to do is work hard. That will determine his fate. I bought into his words and so did the Celtics. Seems like a no brainer to me.

Re: If Boston didn't take Brown where do you think he would have gone?
« Reply #123 on: September 07, 2016, 06:16:00 PM »

Offline jambr380

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Yeah, LB, Brown totally would have fallen to 9th...like definitely.  ::)

Heck, why not say the Cs could have gotten him with the Yab pick. Total waste of a BKN pick - they got a barely-lottery-level talent at the 3rd spot in the draft.

Ainge should totally be fired...

Re: If Boston didn't take Brown where do you think he would have gone?
« Reply #124 on: September 07, 2016, 06:22:12 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Yeah, LB, Brown totally would have fallen to 9th...like definitely.  ::)

Heck, why not say the Cs could have gotten him with the Yab pick. Total waste of a BKN pick - they got a barely-lottery-level talent at the 3rd spot in the draft.

Ainge should totally be fired...
I think the reason why this thread exists is because we're wondering if Boston could have selected another player (Dunn, Murray, Bendedr, whoever) and still been able to trade up and take Brown at #8.  I think it's a fair question to ask.  Based on the resources available to us as fans, it seems Brown would have been there at #8.  I think the Kings were the ultimate wild card.   If they keep the pick, I'm not sure they take Brown.  I don't think Brown would have slipped past Toronto, though.

Two key points, though...

#1 - On Draft night our priority was to maximize flexibility heading into free agency.  I'm not sure adding two top 10 rookies would have worked if we were trying to maintain double-max cap space to sign both Horford and Durant.   We had to use our other two first rounders on draft-and-stashes because we simply didn't have enough roster spots.

#2 - I'm not sure the Kings would have been interested in dropping all the way down to #16.  That would have been the biggest road block... the Kings willingness to drop vs our willingness to give up some of our juicier future assets.  I don't know that we'd be able/willing to outbid the Suns if the SUns tried to grab #8 for Jaylen.

Re: If Boston didn't take Brown where do you think he would have gone?
« Reply #125 on: September 07, 2016, 06:34:54 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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I think there is a clear reason brown was considered a tier above the other guys we are talking about. He has an NBA body while some of the guys a step down like bender and Murray really do not. I think Dunn was considered a lesser prospect because of his age. Sure glad we have him and didn't reach for Dunn.

Re: If Boston didn't take Brown where do you think he would have gone?
« Reply #126 on: September 07, 2016, 07:07:17 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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I think there is a clear reason brown was considered a tier above the other guys we are talking about. He has an NBA body while some of the guys a step down like bender and Murray really do not. I think Dunn was considered a lesser prospect because of his age. Sure glad we have him and didn't reach for Dunn.
That can't be right.  What you're saying is not reflected in the Tiers.  Both Chriss and Brown were called Tier 3 prospects.

On Chriss and Brown, the Tiers had the following to say:

Quote
This tier is typically reserved for players who are projected as NBA starters.

All five of these players are locks to go in the top 10. Chriss, especially, has star potential as well.

Of this group, Bender and Brown were the only players to receive Tier 4 votes.

This suggests that if anything, Chriss was a high Tier 3 while Brown was a low Tier 3.

When in doubt, consult the tiers.



Re: If Boston didn't take Brown where do you think he would have gone?
« Reply #127 on: September 07, 2016, 07:38:43 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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I think there is a clear reason brown was considered a tier above the other guys we are talking about. He has an NBA body while some of the guys a step down like bender and Murray really do not. I think Dunn was considered a lesser prospect because of his age. Sure glad we have him and didn't reach for Dunn.
That can't be right.  What you're saying is not reflected in the Tiers.  Both Chriss and Brown were called Tier 3 prospects.

On Chriss and Brown, the Tiers had the following to say:

Quote
This tier is typically reserved for players who are projected as NBA starters.

All five of these players are locks to go in the top 10. Chriss, especially, has star potential as well.

Of this group, Bender and Brown were the only players to receive Tier 4 votes.

This suggests that if anything, Chriss was a high Tier 3 while Brown was a low Tier 3.

When in doubt, consult the tiers.



I wasn't talking about Ford. His tiers have been proven to be scientifically insigificant. The statistical analysis done by winshares based on his projections has proved that he does worse in tier 2 and 3 than would be achieved through a coin toss. There is a chance he does not do the tiers next year if this research gets published in time.

Re: If Boston didn't take Brown where do you think he would have gone?
« Reply #128 on: September 07, 2016, 09:20:22 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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How about the premise that we take Brown at 3 and still trade up to #8.  In that case we get one of Chriss, Poeltl, or Maker.

Or you say we take Dunn and who knows who we end up with if by some miracle we trade up to #8.

My point is you have no way to know that if we took Dunn and ended up with say Heild (2 safe picks) that we would be any better off then we would be with Brown and Chriss (two riskier but higher upside picks).

And we might be the best off with Brown and whoever we would have to trade to get up to the #8.   I think it would take more than #16 plus a collection of mid 20s picks.  i am glad we didn't take Dunn.  I am fine with Brown.  Maybe Murray will be the one we all say how could we miss him.  Maybe it will be Dunn.  It is draft picking.  You just never know.  There is an element of chance to drafting (very literally).  Like many things in life, it is better to be lucky than good (that goes for ping pong balls and players).

Re: If Boston didn't take Brown where do you think he would have gone?
« Reply #129 on: September 08, 2016, 12:14:24 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Lets say Boston took Dunn at #3 and traded him to Philly...

I'm thinking Phoenix still would still take Bender at #4, firstly because they needed size and secondly because they seem to have been obsessed with Bender from day one.

From here it's really a tough call. 

If you are Minnesota and you're selecting at #5, the top prospects available are Brown, Hield, Murray and Chriss.

You already have Lavine (a solid shooter and combo-guard with good size) so Dunn and Hield would be kinda redundant.  You already have Rubio so no need to chase a PG (though there were none anyway).  You already have Wiggins and KAT so no need to chase a SF or PF, specifically.  They could use a center, but you aren't going to reach on a Poltl/Maker/Sabonis THIS high in the draft.  So it makes zero sense really for them to choose based on positional need.

That means if you are Minnesota, you have to select based on pure upside and fit. 

Now the Wolves are a very athletic team, so I imagine they're going to want to play uptempo.  They also don't seem to care much about shooting based on recent draft history (Rubio, Wiggins, their eventual pick of Kris Dunn).  So put all of this together and it's safe to assume they would have had minimal interest in Hield or Murray.

That means it probably would have come down to Chriss or Brown.  With all of the question marks on Chriss (motor, attitude, etc) I find it very hard to believe they'd have taken him this high.

So I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that if Boston didn't take Brown at #3, he'd probably have gone to the Timberwolves at #5.  I'm guessing they'd have shifted Wiggins to the SG spot, put Brown at the SF spot, and moved forward with a very nice (and rediculously athletic) young core of Rubio/Wiggins/Brown/Towns. 

If he didn't go at #5 then I think the Hornets would have taken Hield (they seemed high on him and desperately wanted shooting), so he'd likely have gone at #7 to Denver.  He has far higher upside then Murray does, so I can't imagine Denver would have taken Murray over Brown. 

But that's all a moot point because I very much doubt he'd have gone past #5. 

The way I see it, there were really only three guys who had enough percieved upside to justify consideration at the #3 spot and they were Dunn, Brown and Bender.  It was not likely any one of those three guys was falling out of the top 5.
Perhaps, but it doesn't really sound like Jaylen was high on the Wolves draft board.  They didn't work him out.  Had Dunn not been available, it really sounds like they would have went with one of the shooters (Murray or Hield).  Scoff at the draftniks, but that's who most of them had Minny taking.

Don't really care what the scouts predict, to be honest.

The Wolves seemingly wanted Dunn above anybody not named Ingram/Simmons, despite the fact that they already have a quality young PG in Rubio, who becomes completely redundant with the addition of Dunn.  If they wanted to add shooting (with Hield/Murray) then they easily could have done so, but they didn't, so it doesn't seem to me like shooting was very high on their agenda.

Minnesota have a core of guys now who are very young, and rediculously athletic (Rubio, Lavine, Wiggins, Towns).   It makes sense for them to push for an uptempo run-and-gun style of offense, and the two guys they had available who best fit that style of play would be Dunn and Brown.
Murray and Hield also fit that description, especially Murray.  Minnesota really needed a strong shooter as none of their smalls are shooters.  It is a big flaw on their team.  There have also been a lot of rumors involving Rubio, which seems to indicate he isn't in their long term plans. 

Minnesota didn't work Brown out, I find it hard to believe they would use the 5th pick on a guy that didn't work out for them.  I get that it occasionally happens, I just don't think Minnesota goes that way with the team they have.

Murray and Heidl don't fit that description at all though...

I mean maybe Heild could be somewhat effective in the transition game playing off the ball at the SG spot, since he has the size and length (and to some degree, athleticism) to get out and finish on the break...

But Murray isn't long enough to play the SG spot and he isn't quick enough (or sufficient enough as a ball handler) to play the PG spot - he's basically JJ Reddick v2, so I don't see anything at all to indicate that he'd be an effective transition scorer at the NBA level.

Besides, Murray really doesn't offer anything that they don't already get from Lavine.  The one single thing Murray does well is shoot the three, and Lavine shot 40% last year. Lavine is a better passer, better ball handler, has better court vision, he's got more defensive upside, and he's got far superior size and athleticism. 

If there's one thing we can probably say with confidence about Brown, it's that he should be an absolute monster in transition - with his combination of speed, reach, leaping ability and raw power he's going to be like a poor man's Lebron once he gets out on the break.  We also know he's an excellent rebounder for a wing, and that he has a lot of defensive upside. 

That seems to make him a nice fit for a Wolves team that will probably want to run, run, run all day.

 

« Last Edit: September 08, 2016, 12:36:52 AM by crimson_stallion »

Re: If Boston didn't take Brown where do you think he would have gone?
« Reply #130 on: September 08, 2016, 01:49:17 AM »

Offline TheSundanceKid

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Yeah, LB, Brown totally would have fallen to 9th...like definitely.  ::)

Heck, why not say the Cs could have gotten him with the Yab pick. Total waste of a BKN pick - they got a barely-lottery-level talent at the 3rd spot in the draft.

Ainge should totally be fired...
I think the reason why this thread exists is because we're wondering if Boston could have selected another player (Dunn, Murray, Bendedr, whoever) and still been able to trade up and take Brown at #8.  I think it's a fair question to ask.  Based on the resources available to us as fans, it seems Brown would have been there at #8.  I think the Kings were the ultimate wild card.   If they keep the pick, I'm not sure they take Brown.  I don't think Brown would have slipped past Toronto, though.

Two key points, though...

#1 - On Draft night our priority was to maximize flexibility heading into free agency.  I'm not sure adding two top 10 rookies would have worked if we were trying to maintain double-max cap space to sign both Horford and Durant.   We had to use our other two first rounders on draft-and-stashes because we simply didn't have enough roster spots.

#2 - I'm not sure the Kings would have been interested in dropping all the way down to #16.  That would have been the biggest road block... the Kings willingness to drop vs our willingness to give up some of our juicier future assets.  I don't know that we'd be able/willing to outbid the Suns if the SUns tried to grab #8 for Jaylen.
No, based on the resources available to us there is a small possibility he was available at 8, the overwhelming likelihood is he would be gone by 8.
I believe DA picked Brown because he thinks he's the best option at 3 for us. However consider this also, of the prospects picked 3-8 who would the Kings have selected given free reign? Obviously they would have passed on Chriss but from the others there is a very high chance that Brown would have topped their list. Perhaps the thought of a future Cousins trade was also on ainges mind? Of course this would also mean that Sac would not have traded the pick if Brown had fallen. I think if any of the guys picked 3-7 had fallen to Sac then the pick would not have been traded

Re: If Boston didn't take Brown where do you think he would have gone?
« Reply #131 on: September 08, 2016, 08:36:19 AM »

Online Moranis

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How about the premise that we take Brown at 3 and still trade up to #8.  In that case we get one of Chriss, Poeltl, or Maker.

Or you say we take Dunn and who knows who we end up with if by some miracle we trade up to #8.

My point is you have no way to know that if we took Dunn and ended up with say Heild (2 safe picks) that we would be any better off then we would be with Brown and Chriss (two riskier but higher upside picks).

And we might be the best off with Brown and whoever we would have to trade to get up to the #8.   I think it would take more than #16 plus a collection of mid 20s picks.  i am glad we didn't take Dunn.  I am fine with Brown.  Maybe Murray will be the one we all say how could we miss him.  Maybe it will be Dunn.  It is draft picking.  You just never know.  There is an element of chance to drafting (very literally).  Like many things in life, it is better to be lucky than good (that goes for ping pong balls and players).
We would have taken Dunn for Philly, not for ourselves, because in this scenario you would need the Philly assets to then move back up to 8.  No way Boston moves up without the extra Philly 1st's (if at all). 
« Last Edit: September 08, 2016, 09:01:26 AM by Moranis »
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Re: If Boston didn't take Brown where do you think he would have gone?
« Reply #132 on: September 08, 2016, 11:10:50 AM »

Offline FreddieJ

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Yeah, LB, Brown totally would have fallen to 9th...like definitely.  ::)

Heck, why not say the Cs could have gotten him with the Yab pick. Total waste of a BKN pick - they got a barely-lottery-level talent at the 3rd spot in the draft.

Ainge should totally be fired...
I think the reason why this thread exists is because we're wondering if Boston could have selected another player (Dunn, Murray, Bendedr, whoever) and still been able to trade up and take Brown at #8.  I think it's a fair question to ask.  Based on the resources available to us as fans, it seems Brown would have been there at #8.  I think the Kings were the ultimate wild card.   If they keep the pick, I'm not sure they take Brown.  I don't think Brown would have slipped past Toronto, though.

Two key points, though...

#1 - On Draft night our priority was to maximize flexibility heading into free agency.  I'm not sure adding two top 10 rookies would have worked if we were trying to maintain double-max cap space to sign both Horford and Durant.   We had to use our other two first rounders on draft-and-stashes because we simply didn't have enough roster spots.

#2 - I'm not sure the Kings would have been interested in dropping all the way down to #16.  That would have been the biggest road block... the Kings willingness to drop vs our willingness to give up some of our juicier future assets.  I don't know that we'd be able/willing to outbid the Suns if the SUns tried to grab #8 for Jaylen.
No, based on the resources available to us there is a small possibility he was available at 8, the overwhelming likelihood is he would be gone by 8.
I believe DA picked Brown because he thinks he's the best option at 3 for us. However consider this also, of the prospects picked 3-8 who would the Kings have selected given free reign? Obviously they would have passed on Chriss but from the others there is a very high chance that Brown would have topped their list. Perhaps the thought of a future Cousins trade was also on ainges mind? Of course this would also mean that Sac would not have traded the pick if Brown had fallen. I think if any of the guys picked 3-7 had fallen to Sac then the pick would not have been traded

I don't. The Kings most likely wouldn't have passed on Dunn, and maybe the other guards (Murray/Hield).

Everything else would have been traded, particularly Brown who has no fit with some of the team's best players (Cousins/Gay/Casspi), as a three who doesn't spread the floor

The Suns package was also enticing because of Bogdanovic, who Vlade was high on and many consider one of the best players in Europe

Re: If Boston didn't take Brown where do you think he would have gone?
« Reply #133 on: September 08, 2016, 02:52:31 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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in all seriousness this may be the most ridiculous thread of the offseason that gained traction.

Re: If Boston didn't take Brown where do you think he would have gone?
« Reply #134 on: September 08, 2016, 03:58:43 PM »

Offline kraidstar

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8-10.

At some point you really gotta take the green glasses off.

Pure homerism like this is killing this site.

We probably could have gotten Brown with the Bentil pick. A little birdie told me the only reason Brown got any hype at all was because the other teams in the league wanted to pump him up because Ainge was the only GM stupid enough to take him.

Ainge is of course an avid reader of draft sites and blogs like this one, he gets most of his info from them, so it's easy for other organizations to conspire and plant false info to confuse low IQ cases like Danny. They thought they could hustle him into wasting his pick.

All the nonsense about Brown being in the #3-8 range was misdirection. The local media is in on the joke as well, because they know we have no shot, and might as well get a few chuckles out of it.

As usual, Danny took the bait and let Celtics Nation down. No need for teams to trade up when they're dealing with fools like us.