Khris middleton for the 3rd?

[Rondo9]

Yes, yes they do. Most of the time it is not considered a two player draft with a steep drop off in talent after 2. It's usually considered a more gradual slide. Not this year. Almost every scout you talk to says it drops off a cliff after 2. Look at the last 5 drafts and the level of talent in the top 10.

2010: John Wall, Demarcus Cousins, Gordon Hayward, Paul George, Greg Monroe
2011: Kyrie Irving, Klay Thompson, Kemba Walker, Tristian Thompson
2012: Anthony Davis, Andre Drummond, Bradley Beal, Damion Lillard
2013: bleh
2014: Andrew Wiggins, Jabari Parker, Joel Embiid,
2015: Karl Anthony Towns, Deangelo Russell, Joel Embiid, Justice Winslow

OBVIOUSLY not every one of these picks was thought of as a sure thing at the time but Specifically the last two years I can say for certain they were all held in high regard and held a lot more value than this year.

MOST of these players weren't any more highly rated pre-draft than Kris Dunn or Bender.

Embiid you have twice - not in 2015. Winslow was slated to go lower.
2013 did happen.
Drummond had big question marks and didn't even go top 5.
Lillard had question marks from a small school/ senior background.
Klay Thompson went 11th overall.

You're just listing some of the best players from recent drafts, not how they were regarded going in.

 The #3 in this draft just isn't that valuable, it's the truth. If it was we would have an easier time making these trades.

What makes you think they aren't? If anything the Sixers are coming to the Celtics to trade.

[crimson_stallion]

I'm surprised everyone is so against trading #3 for Middleton. I don't think we should trade the pick before we know exactly who it's going to be but Middleton is 24 years old and averaged 18-4-4 with 1.7 steals per game last year, shooting .444/.396/.888. He plays good defense and is exactly the kind of player the Celtics need (a shooting wing who can defend).

What are the odds that anyone rumored to be taken #3 will be as good of a two-way player as Middleton?

Averaging 18 ppg in 36 minutes is not some sort of a major achievement. You're trading for Jeff Green all over again.

If Jeff Green could defend 2 guards, hit 3s at 40%, pass the ball and score 18ppg as anything other than a smallball 4, he'd still be here.

Jeff Green regularly defended 2 guards, hit .385 from three the last full season he played here, and was on pace for 17.7 pp36 the season when he was traded. It's funny how revisionist history works.

The biggest criticism of Green (at least to me) was that his only contributions were his scoring and his defense, and he was highly inconsistent at both.   He didn't really contribute in any other area of the game - he couldn't rebound well enough for the PF spot, and he couldn't pass / dribble well enough for the SF spot.  He was also some 27 years of age at the time so he was already in his prime.

Middleton is a different story because he's a SG/SF, and in addition to his 18 PPG (which has gone up every year, just for the record) he also averaged 5 rebounds and 4 assists last year - solid numbers for a SG/SF.

In addition to that he has shot ~ 40% on 3PT for three of his four NBA seasons and IIRC has shot over 80% from the line every year.  By comparison Jeff Green never shot 40% (he was  struggling to get above 35% most of his career) and mostly shot in the 70's from the line.

Finally Middleton is only 24 years old and has increased his production every year, and if he continues that trajectory it's not hard to envision him becoming a 20 PPG scorer, and if so he could become a poor man's Klay Thompson.

I must admit I was initially not impressed by the idea, but I didn't realise his production had jumped as much as it did last season.  An 18/5/4 guy on a $14M a year contract is a huge steal - that's basically Gordon Hayward production, but Middleton is IMHO a better shooter and defender then Hayward.

Admittedly if the Celtics are working on two possible deals for #3 (Nerlens Noel or Kris Middleton) it's a tough call for me.  Neither looks like a future star, but both guys could be the type of players who could be difference making staters (Noel as an anchor and Middleton as a shooter) on a contender.  Both are also still very young with significant upside.

[TwinTower14]

Stein saying the C's tried for Hayward, Parker, Middleton and Butler and have been shut down on all fronts.

[kozlodoev]

I'm surprised everyone is so against trading #3 for Middleton. I don't think we should trade the pick before we know exactly who it's going to be but Middleton is 24 years old and averaged 18-4-4 with 1.7 steals per game last year, shooting .444/.396/.888. He plays good defense and is exactly the kind of player the Celtics need (a shooting wing who can defend).

What are the odds that anyone rumored to be taken #3 will be as good of a two-way player as Middleton?

Averaging 18 ppg in 36 minutes is not some sort of a major achievement. You're trading for Jeff Green all over again.

If Jeff Green could defend 2 guards, hit 3s at 40%, pass the ball and score 18ppg as anything other than a smallball 4, he'd still be here.

Jeff Green regularly defended 2 guards, hit .385 from three the last full season he played here, and was on pace for 17.7 pp36 the season when he was traded. It's funny how revisionist history works.

The biggest criticism of Green (at least to me) was that his only contributions were his scoring and his defense, and he was highly inconsistent at both.   He didn't really contribute in any other area of the game - he couldn't rebound well enough for the PF spot, and he couldn't pass / dribble well enough for the SF spot.  He was also some 27 years of age at the time so he was already in his prime.

Middleton is a different story because he's a SG/SF, and in addition to his 18 PPG (which has gone up every year, just for the record) he also averaged 5 rebounds and 4 assists last year - solid numbers for a SG/SF.

In addition to that he has shot ~ 40% on 3PT for three of his four NBA seasons and IIRC has shot over 80% from the line every year.  By comparison Jeff Green never shot 40% (he was  struggling to get above 35% most of his career) and mostly shot in the 70's from the line.

Finally Middleton is only 24 years old and has increased his production every year, and if he continues that trajectory it's not hard to envision him becoming a 20 PPG scorer, and if so he could become a poor man's Klay Thompson.

I must admit I was initially not impressed by the idea, but I didn't realise his production had jumped as much as it did last season.  An 18/5/4 guy on a $14M a year contract is a huge steal - that's basically Gordon Hayward production, but Middleton is IMHO a better shooter and defender then Hayward.

The point here is that if you're willing to give up the 3rd pick for the best of the bargain bin, you're doing it wrong.

[jpotter33]

Stein saying the C's tried for Hayward, Parker, Middleton and Butler and have been shut down on all fronts.

Good. It would've been an overpay for Middleton anyways. I think Kidd is an idiot when it comes to this stuff. Unless Danny is REALLY low-balling them, which very well could be the case, then Kidd should absolutely look to get something like Bradley and #3 for Dunn, who both would be excellent fits there. There's been rumors that they love Middleton just as much if not more than Giannis and Parker, so this doesn't surprise me. I don't blame them for not trading Parker, though. Enjoy that treadmill!

I still think Butler gets traded. Their entire core is leaving this summer, and they're not really getting any better. Trading Butler would jump start their rebuild and allow them to better fit a roster around Hoiberg. I don't see any point in delaying a rebuild right now.

As for Hayward, we're most likely the frontrunner to sign him in free agency next year anyways, so there's no real point to try and trade for him now.

[crimson_stallion]

I'm surprised everyone is so against trading #3 for Middleton. I don't think we should trade the pick before we know exactly who it's going to be but Middleton is 24 years old and averaged 18-4-4 with 1.7 steals per game last year, shooting .444/.396/.888. He plays good defense and is exactly the kind of player the Celtics need (a shooting wing who can defend).

What are the odds that anyone rumored to be taken #3 will be as good of a two-way player as Middleton?

Averaging 18 ppg in 36 minutes is not some sort of a major achievement. You're trading for Jeff Green all over again.

If Jeff Green could defend 2 guards, hit 3s at 40%, pass the ball and score 18ppg as anything other than a smallball 4, he'd still be here.

Jeff Green regularly defended 2 guards, hit .385 from three the last full season he played here, and was on pace for 17.7 pp36 the season when he was traded. It's funny how revisionist history works.

The biggest criticism of Green (at least to me) was that his only contributions were his scoring and his defense, and he was highly inconsistent at both.   He didn't really contribute in any other area of the game - he couldn't rebound well enough for the PF spot, and he couldn't pass / dribble well enough for the SF spot.  He was also some 27 years of age at the time so he was already in his prime.

Middleton is a different story because he's a SG/SF, and in addition to his 18 PPG (which has gone up every year, just for the record) he also averaged 5 rebounds and 4 assists last year - solid numbers for a SG/SF.

In addition to that he has shot ~ 40% on 3PT for three of his four NBA seasons and IIRC has shot over 80% from the line every year.  By comparison Jeff Green never shot 40% (he was  struggling to get above 35% most of his career) and mostly shot in the 70's from the line.

Finally Middleton is only 24 years old and has increased his production every year, and if he continues that trajectory it's not hard to envision him becoming a 20 PPG scorer, and if so he could become a poor man's Klay Thompson.

I must admit I was initially not impressed by the idea, but I didn't realise his production had jumped as much as it did last season.  An 18/5/4 guy on a $14M a year contract is a huge steal - that's basically Gordon Hayward production, but Middleton is IMHO a better shooter and defender then Hayward.

The point here is that if you're willing to give up the 3rd pick for the best of the bargain bin, you're doing it wrong.

Well that all depends on your intentions, doesn't it?

Middleton is a 24 year old who is averaging 18/5/4 on a great value (and long term) contract.

According to reports Danny is not interested in Murray or Chriss, so that means the guys he'd be looking at @ #3 would be Hield, Bender, Dunn and Brown. 

Hield could be an offensive star, but all we know for sure is that he's going to be a great shooter - Middleton is already a great shooter and is only two years older, so would you take Hield over Middlton?  Probably not.

Bender and Brown are both high risk, high upside guys, so if you want to make moves that actually move the needle (and help you bring a star here) would you gamble on one of those guys or take a prospect who's already proven he can play?  I say you'd probably take Middleton.

That leaves Dunn as maybe the only guy who might make you think twice, but Dunn has question marks about his shooting and he'd be competing with Thomas, Smart, Rozier and Bradley for playing time.  If you have the pick you don't care about that and you make the move anyway, but if you have a change to a guy who has a talent we specifically need (shooting/scoring) at a position we lack depth at (SF) - you really have to consider it.  If the aim is to make the team better right now, then Middleton is more likely to do that then Dunn.

Danny has specifically said that he won't sacrifice the team's future just to win a few games now, but Middleton is only 24 years old so taking him wouldn't sacrifice the future at all.  It's not exactly "fireworks", but it's not hard to see that the move makes a lot of sense for Boston.

Unlike most people I actually think this draft is pretty deep and that there are numerous players with all-star potential outside the top 2, but unless you have the #1 pick (which tends to translate into a good player more often then not)  the draft is still a big, big gamble. 

It's not by any means a no brainer, but being in Danny's position you would certainly have to consider it - especially if you're trying to improve your team in order to help attract star free agents.

To be honest I don't really mind either way.  If we keep #3 and draft any of Hield/Dunn/Brown then I'd be thrilled with that.  If we trade the pick and manage to bring in Middleton or Noel, then I'm pretty thrilled with that as well.  If Danny keeps the pick and drafts Bender then I'll be a little bit more reserved about it, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and try to get excited about it.

As long as we aren't trading that pick for either (a) Okafor or (b) some washed up bum, then honestly I'm pretty happy either way. 

[mmmmm]

Stein saying the C's tried for Hayward, Parker, Middleton and Butler and have been shut down on all fronts.

I call bogus.  It makes no sense for Danny to "try for Hayward" with one year left on Hayward's contract.  If we want to get Hayward because of the Brad Stevens connection, then the belief has to be that Hayward would want to sign and play for Stevens as a free agent.  Which means it makes ZERO sense to expend assets (ESPECIALLY not the #3 pick) just to bring Hayward on a year early.  We could just sign him as a free agent next summer.

I suppose it is possible we offered some more modest package for him, but it just doesn't make much sense and would not be a typical "Ainge"-like move.

Parker is almost certainly out of reach and also doesn't make a lot of sense other than to just ask about knowing you'll get a "NO" before you ask, but you ask anyway, just to start a conversation.

I'm not saying Danny got any traction on any of those players.  But I don't put a lot of stock in Stein's report.

No big trade is likely to happen until the last minute on draft night anyway.  Sometimes not until after more than one relevant pick has already been made.

[mmmmm]

I'm surprised everyone is so against trading #3 for Middleton. I don't think we should trade the pick before we know exactly who it's going to be but Middleton is 24 years old and averaged 18-4-4 with 1.7 steals per game last year, shooting .444/.396/.888. He plays good defense and is exactly the kind of player the Celtics need (a shooting wing who can defend).

What are the odds that anyone rumored to be taken #3 will be as good of a two-way player as Middleton?

Averaging 18 ppg in 36 minutes is not some sort of a major achievement. You're trading for Jeff Green all over again.

If Jeff Green could defend 2 guards, hit 3s at 40%, pass the ball and score 18ppg as anything other than a smallball 4, he'd still be here.

Jeff Green regularly defended 2 guards, hit .385 from three the last full season he played here, and was on pace for 17.7 pp36 the season when he was traded. It's funny how revisionist history works.

The biggest criticism of Green (at least to me) was that his only contributions were his scoring and his defense, and he was highly inconsistent at both.   He didn't really contribute in any other area of the game - he couldn't rebound well enough for the PF spot, and he couldn't pass / dribble well enough for the SF spot.  He was also some 27 years of age at the time so he was already in his prime.

Middleton is a different story because he's a SG/SF, and in addition to his 18 PPG (which has gone up every year, just for the record) he also averaged 5 rebounds and 4 assists last year - solid numbers for a SG/SF.

In addition to that he has shot ~ 40% on 3PT for three of his four NBA seasons and IIRC has shot over 80% from the line every year.  By comparison Jeff Green never shot 40% (he was  struggling to get above 35% most of his career) and mostly shot in the 70's from the line.

Finally Middleton is only 24 years old and has increased his production every year, and if he continues that trajectory it's not hard to envision him becoming a 20 PPG scorer, and if so he could become a poor man's Klay Thompson.

I must admit I was initially not impressed by the idea, but I didn't realise his production had jumped as much as it did last season.  An 18/5/4 guy on a $14M a year contract is a huge steal - that's basically Gordon Hayward production, but Middleton is IMHO a better shooter and defender then Hayward.

The point here is that if you're willing to give up the 3rd pick for the best of the bargain bin, you're doing it wrong.

Well that all depends on your intentions, doesn't it?

Middleton is a 24 year old who is averaging 18/5/4 on a great value (and long term) contract.

According to reports Danny is not interested in Murray or Chriss, so that means the guys he'd be looking at @ #3 would be Hield, Bender, Dunn and Brown. 

Hield could be an offensive star, but all we know for sure is that he's going to be a great shooter - Middleton is already a great shooter and is only two years older, so would you take Hield over Middlton?  Probably not.

Bender and Brown are both high risk, high upside guys, so if you want to make moves that actually move the needle (and help you bring a star here) would you gamble on one of those guys or take a prospect who's already proven he can play?  I say you'd probably take Middleton.

That leaves Dunn as maybe the only guy who might make you think twice, but Dunn has question marks about his shooting and he'd be competing with Thomas, Smart, Rozier and Bradley for playing time.  If you have the pick you don't care about that and you make the move anyway, but if you have a change to a guy who has a talent we specifically need (shooting/scoring) at a position we lack depth at (SF) - you really have to consider it.  If the aim is to make the team better right now, then Middleton is more likely to do that then Dunn.

Danny has specifically said that he won't sacrifice the team's future just to win a few games now, but Middleton is only 24 years old so taking him wouldn't sacrifice the future at all.  It's not exactly "fireworks", but it's not hard to see that the move makes a lot of sense for Boston.

Unlike most people I actually think this draft is pretty deep and that there are numerous players with all-star potential outside the top 2, but unless you have the #1 pick (which tends to translate into a good player more often then not)  the draft is still a big, big gamble. 

It's not by any means a no brainer, but being in Danny's position you would certainly have to consider it - especially if you're trying to improve your team in order to help attract star free agents.

Middleton is on such a great contract.  He's already worth the #3 based on his value as a player.  When you add in his great contract, it's a no-brainer to me.   You have to throw in more than just the #3, probably.

[LarBrd33]

I want Middleton more than Jimmy Butler.   Legit shooter.  I'd be pretty happy if we got him out of this draft.

[nostar]

I don't think the #3 gets it done. When I see Middleton play I just see a younger Rudy Gay, with some reasonable defensive chops. That is definitely worth the #3 pick in this draft.

Middleton is on a great contract going forward, but you know who is on a better contract? Anyone we pick at #3. I'm all for trading #3 for Middleton but I'm not sure you can say the contract is a good reason to swap. Scoring production at SF is a reasonable justification.

I wouldn't go much further than the #3 overall pick for Middleton. While I think he's worth it, I also think that we can get that production from SFs at a lower cost or swing at a lot of SFs in the summer of 2017.

One thing I really like is that Danny seems to be targeting players who are both productive and cap friendly. Butler, Middleton, Okafor and Love are all on long(ish)-term deals that will look very good under the new cap.

This kind of maneuvering might give us a leg up in signing that 3rd max free agent. With a lot of our core on bargain deals (IT, AB, Crowder) and the rest on rookie deals it's really easy to see how we could trade for an all-star and then convince some people to come here and compete without them having to take discounts to do so.

[LarBrd33]

On a smaller scale, I feel about Middleton the same way I felt about Steph Curry back in 2012 when he was averaging 15 points.  It was clear he could shoot... you had to wonder how he'd perform if he wasn't stuck on a team with offensive black holes.  WIth Curry, it was Monta Ellis.  With Middleton, it's a combination of system and surrounding talent.  As the season progressed, his offensive role grew.  He's only 24.  It will be interesting to see if he's capable of taking a mini leap at his next team.

[byennie]

Middleton is interesting because of the way Ainge talks about "undervalued assets", and collects good contracts. While he's certainly not Crowder in terms of underutilization, I wouldn't be surprised if the Cs see him having more room for growth.

#3 pick worries me a bit in terms of value, but I certainly wouldn't complain having Middleton on the roster. Ideally I'd trade future pick(s) for him and use the #3 to get Noel.

Gets pretty messy at the guard spots, though, if Smart/Bradley/Middleton all want the majority of their minutes at the 2. Seems like follow-up trade territory.

#3 for Middleton, then Bradley + BKN pick(s) for Noel?

[kiwiceltic]

Maybe as a last resort if Danny really doesn't want the pick and has run out of options. There are many other avenues to explore before taking a walk down mediocre lane!

[mr. dee]

Middleton, #10 and John Henson for #3, #16 Jerebko, Young/Hunter and/or Rozier.

[Big333223]

Middleton, #10 and John Henson for #3, #16 Jerebko, Young/Hunter and/or Rozier.

I'd be into that.