Celtics in on Butler negotiations (Via CBS)

[crimson_stallion]

I would be OK with either of the below, in order of preference:

1) #3 + Crowder
2) #3 + Smart
3) #3 + Bradley

I prefer giving up Crowder, since I think he is since I think he is the guy who most closely mimics Butlers game, and hence the most redundant if Butler were to come here.

My last preference would be giving up Bradley.  His ability to harass quick guards on defense means that he can pick up opposing team's best ball handling while the other wings (like Thomas and Butler) could preserve some energy on offense.   Likewise his ability to shoot the three - consistently - is critical for our court spacing (as we found out the hard way against the Hawks).

I'm not too concerned about Smart since he's not good enough to start over IT4 or Bradley, and as a backup Rozier (with a full season of experience under his belt) is probably just as capable as a backup combo guard.  He's a nice player and I appreciate his intangibles, but he's not irreplaceable.

[crimson_stallion]

I like Butler and think he's a nice fit next to IT....my only hesitation is the cost.

My guess is if we get Butler we are going all out for KD.

If you got Butler you wouldn't need KD to compete for a title.  You would just have to upgrade the 4/5 and replace whatever players you have to give up to make the deal for Butler.

This is a valid point.

[jpotter33]

I would be OK with either of the below, in order of preference:

1) #3 + Crowder
2) #3 + Smart
3) #3 + Bradley

I prefer giving up Crowder, since I think he is since I think he is the guy who most closely mimics Butlers game, and hence the most redundant if Butler were to come here.

My last preference would be giving up Bradley.  His ability to harass quick guards on defense means that he can pick up opposing team's best ball handling while the other wings (like Thomas and Butler) could preserve some energy on offense.   Likewise his ability to shoot the three - consistently - is critical for our court spacing (as we found out the hard way against the Hawks).

I'm not too concerned about Smart since he's not good enough to start over IT4 or Bradley, and as a backup Rozier (with a full season of experience under his belt) is probably just as capable as a backup combo guard.  He's a nice player and I appreciate his intangibles, but he's not irreplaceable.

I'm the same way. A Butler/Crowder wing pairing is tempting due to defensive versatility and the size upgrade we'd get to an already severely undersized backcourt, but their games are similar and it does hurt our shooting significantly.

Smart would be my third option, though, because it'd create quite a logjam if you sent him out and kept Bradley, Crowder, and Butler. Smart can play the 1, too, so you could legitimately play all three of them together. In fact, I'd love to keep Smart just in case we were able to complete the dream of Butler, KD, Horford, because he'd allow us to move IT back to the bench and really secure a title-contending roster with a dynamic and explosive bench. Having three All-Stars last year with plenty of offensive firepower in the starting lineup already, we wouldn't need IT's scoring in the starting lineup, and he'd essentially play the 2012 Harden role as the scoring 6th man leading the second unit. With Durant and Butler being more than capable of having the offense ran through them, Smart could then ultimately play the Mario Chalmers Heat role that he played with the Heat's Big 3, albeit with less shooting but much greater defense.

[chambers]

I would be OK with either of the below, in order of preference:

1) #3 + Crowder
2) #3 + Smart
3) #3 + Bradley

I prefer giving up Crowder, since I think he is since I think he is the guy who most closely mimics Butlers game, and hence the most redundant if Butler were to come here.

My last preference would be giving up Bradley.  His ability to harass quick guards on defense means that he can pick up opposing team's best ball handling while the other wings (like Thomas and Butler) could preserve some energy on offense.   Likewise his ability to shoot the three - consistently - is critical for our court spacing (as we found out the hard way against the Hawks).

I'm not too concerned about Smart since he's not good enough to start over IT4 or Bradley, and as a backup Rozier (with a full season of experience under his belt) is probably just as capable as a backup combo guard.  He's a nice player and I appreciate his intangibles, but he's not irreplaceable.

I think if Smart develops a solid 3 point shot then he'll be an even better version of AB-or perhaps even a star one day. It's a big if, but i would also rather have Crowder next to Butler forndefensive versatility and also in case we don't land Durant.

I think a squad of:

IT
Butler
Crowder
Horford (for example)
Howard (for example)
With Smart off the bench is going to be stronger than
IT
Bradley
Butler
Horford
Howard
With Smart off the bench.

The line ups appear very similar but i prefer the first one for defense versatility and Butler's scoring at SG over the extra 5% 3 point shooting Bradley brings.
But I think the combined effect of the above and retaining a potential star outweighs keeping AB.
Just a personal preference.

[crimson_stallion]

I would be OK with either of the below, in order of preference:

1) #3 + Crowder
2) #3 + Smart
3) #3 + Bradley

I prefer giving up Crowder, since I think he is since I think he is the guy who most closely mimics Butlers game, and hence the most redundant if Butler were to come here.

My last preference would be giving up Bradley.  His ability to harass quick guards on defense means that he can pick up opposing team's best ball handling while the other wings (like Thomas and Butler) could preserve some energy on offense.   Likewise his ability to shoot the three - consistently - is critical for our court spacing (as we found out the hard way against the Hawks).

I'm not too concerned about Smart since he's not good enough to start over IT4 or Bradley, and as a backup Rozier (with a full season of experience under his belt) is probably just as capable as a backup combo guard.  He's a nice player and I appreciate his intangibles, but he's not irreplaceable.

I think if Smart develops a solid 3 point shot then he'll be an even better version of AB-or perhaps even a star one day. It's a big if, but i would also rather have Crowder next to Butler forndefensive versatility and also in case we don't land Durant.

I think a squad of:

IT
Butler
Crowder
Horford (for example)
Howard (for example)
With Smart off the bench is going to be stronger than
IT
Bradley
Butler
Horford
Howard
With Smart off the bench.

The line ups appear very similar but i prefer the first one for defense versatility and Butler's scoring at SG over the extra 5% 3 point shooting Bradley brings.
But I think the combined effect of the above and retaining a potential star outweighs keeping AB.
Just a personal preference.

Fair enough, but I just don't see Smart as a replacement for Bradley - ever.  I just think they are far too different as players.

I don't think Smart has the lateral quickness or the conditioning to be able to pressure ball handlers full court the way Bradley does.  I think Smart is an excellent defender, but in a different kind of way - more of a Crowder type defender in that he uses his size and bulk to wear guys down.

I also don't see Smart ever coming close to being as good a shooter as Bradley.  Bradley shot 40% in his second year in the league (at age 21) and is averaging 36% for his career along with 44% FG.  His potential as a shooter was always on display. 

Smart by comparison has played two seasons and is still struggling to keep his three point shooting above the 30% mark and has yet to average over 37% from the field for a season.    Even in summer league he struggled to manage reasonable shooting numbers.

Not saying Smart's got no chance of ever becoming a decent shooter, just saying that at this point in time it looks like a real long shot.

[TheTruth34]

I like Butler and think he's a nice fit next to IT....my only hesitation is the cost.

My guess is if we get Butler we are going all out for KD.

If you got Butler you wouldn't need KD to compete for a title.  You would just have to upgrade the 4/5 and replace whatever players you have to give up to make the deal for Butler.

This is a valid point.

You're not competing for a title with Jimmy Butler as your best player.  Unless the definition of competing is making the playoffs.  Agree that if they swing the trade for Butler, then they're positioning for a run at KD.  This move along with an FA signing (Horford) can make Boston a viable option.

[The Oracle]

I would be OK with either of the below, in order of preference:

1) #3 + Crowder
2) #3 + Smart
3) #3 + Bradley

I prefer giving up Crowder, since I think he is since I think he is the guy who most closely mimics Butlers game, and hence the most redundant if Butler were to come here.

My last preference would be giving up Bradley.  His ability to harass quick guards on defense means that he can pick up opposing team's best ball handling while the other wings (like Thomas and Butler) could preserve some energy on offense.   Likewise his ability to shoot the three - consistently - is critical for our court spacing (as we found out the hard way against the Hawks).

I'm not too concerned about Smart since he's not good enough to start over IT4 or Bradley, and as a backup Rozier (with a full season of experience under his belt) is probably just as capable as a backup combo guard.  He's a nice player and I appreciate his intangibles, but he's not irreplaceable.

I think if Smart develops a solid 3 point shot then he'll be an even better version of AB-or perhaps even a star one day. It's a big if, but i would also rather have Crowder next to Butler forndefensive versatility and also in case we don't land Durant.

I think a squad of:

IT
Butler
Crowder
Horford (for example)
Howard (for example)
With Smart off the bench is going to be stronger than
IT
Bradley
Butler
Horford
Howard
With Smart off the bench.

The line ups appear very similar but i prefer the first one for defense versatility and Butler's scoring at SG over the extra 5% 3 point shooting Bradley brings.
But I think the combined effect of the above and retaining a potential star outweighs keeping AB.
Just a personal preference.

Fair enough, but I just don't see Smart as a replacement for Bradley - ever.  I just think they are far too different as players.

I don't think Smart has the lateral quickness or the conditioning to be able to pressure ball handlers full court the way Bradley does.  I think Smart is an excellent defender, but in a different kind of way - more of a Crowder type defender in that he uses his size and bulk to wear guys down.

I also don't see Smart ever coming close to being as good a shooter as Bradley.  Bradley shot 40% in his second year in the league (at age 21) and is averaging 36% for his career along with 44% FG.  His potential as a shooter was always on display. 

Smart by comparison has played two seasons and is still struggling to keep his three point shooting above the 30% mark and has yet to average over 37% from the field for a season.    Even in summer league he struggled to manage reasonable shooting numbers. 

Not saying Smart's got no chance of ever becoming a decent shooter, just saying that at this point in time it looks like a real long shot.

Bradley was 5-40, 12.5% from above the break spanning his 1st 3 years in the league.  Smart in his rookie year was 71-218, 32.6% above the break.  It took until Bradley's 4th year to begin making 3's above the break and he wasn't shooting any volume of them until then either.  Comparing the 2 players and declaring Bradley some great shooter in comparison is ridiculous.  All Bradley did was catch and shoot wide open jumpers and make layups playing with K.G., Ray, Rondo, Pierce etc.  Smart has been asked to create, attack, and fire away without superstars around him...BIG difference.

Better ball handler- Smart by a mile.
Better passer- Smart by a mile
Better rebounder- Smart by a mile
Better intangibles- Smart by a mile
Better shooter- As of right now- Bradley.  At the same age- Call it a draw.
Better defender- Smart and it isn't really that close.  Bradley used to be more comparable before he wrecked his shoulders.  He got a lot of unwarranted press late last year and stole a 1st team all-defense.

I like Avery but he is as overrated as they come and will be traded if either of them are. 

[slightly biased bias fan]

Reports are that Bulls have asked for Wiggins plus a pick for Butler from Minnesota, thus Jimmy ain't coming here.

[merkins]

Reports are that Bulls have asked for Wiggins plus a pick for Butler from Minnesota, thus Jimmy ain't coming here.

Translated that means, we arent looking to trade Jimmy Butler.  But if you are willing to heavily overpay, we will listen. 

Celtics do not have the assets (sorry the picks still arent worth more than an established star) to even compete with a Wiggins/#5 equivalent deal. 

We need to come to the realization, the building of the big 3 via trade is likely to be a once in a blue moon type occurrence.  GMs are simply not interested in trading star players unless they are about to walk via FA, terrible discontents or in the twilight of their career.  Its just too risky to think even with a boatload of picks you are going to hit Jimmy Butler type of gold.

So keep the picks and keep mining Danny.

[Celtics4ever]

Better shooter- As of right now- Bradley.  At the same age- Call it a draw.

Nothing is indicative that Marcus will become a good shooter, Oracle, better check your crystal ball.   We have all seen him get hot and next game be dead cold.

[SHAQATTACK]

Reports are that Bulls have asked for Wiggins plus a pick for Butler from Minnesota, thus Jimmy ain't coming here.

No way minn does Wiggins . LOL......bills are dreaming.

[dannyboy35]

I would be OK with either of the below, in order of preference:

1) #3 + Crowder
2) #3 + Smart
3) #3 + Bradley

I prefer giving up Crowder, since I think he is since I think he is the guy who most closely mimics Butlers game, and hence the most redundant if Butler were to come here.

My last preference would be giving up Bradley.  His ability to harass quick guards on defense means that he can pick up opposing team's best ball handling while the other wings (like Thomas and Butler) could preserve some energy on offense.   Likewise his ability to shoot the three - consistently - is critical for our court spacing (as we found out the hard way against the Hawks).

I'm not too concerned about Smart since he's not good enough to start over IT4 or Bradley, and as a backup Rozier (with a full season of experience under his belt) is probably just as capable as a backup combo guard.  He's a nice player and I appreciate his intangibles, but he's not irreplaceable.

I'm the same way. A Butler/Crowder wing pairing is tempting due to defensive versatility and the size upgrade we'd get to an already severely undersized backcourt, but their games are similar and it does hurt our shooting significantly.

But smart can't stay with point guards and he hasn't shown he can be a point guard either. We've needed turner to handle the ball instead.
Smart would be my third option, though, because it'd create quite a logjam if you sent him out and kept Bradley, Crowder, and Butler. Smart can play the 1, too, so you could legitimately play all three of them together. In fact, I'd love to keep Smart just in case we were able to complete the dream of Butler, KD, Horford, because he'd allow us to move IT back to the bench and really secure a title-contending roster with a dynamic and explosive bench. Having three All-Stars last year with plenty of offensive firepower in the starting lineup already, we wouldn't need IT's scoring in the starting lineup, and he'd essentially play the 2012 Harden role as the scoring 6th man leading the second unit. With Durant and Butler being more than capable of having the offense ran through them, Smart could then ultimately play the Mario Chalmers Heat role that he played with the Heat's Big 3, albeit with less shooting but much greater defense.

[rickyfan3.0...]

If he is even 10% attainable, we HAVE TO make this happen.

#3
#16
Smart
Crowder

for Jimmy Butler

(then sign Whiteside)

[Surferdad]

If he is even 10% attainable, we HAVE TO make this happen.

#3
#16
Smart
Crowder

for Jimmy Butler

(then sign Whiteside)

No we don't HAVE TO.  That's a huge overpay and it guts the team of its best defenders.  IT + Butler + Whiteside is not winning any championships.

[jambr380]

If he is even 10% attainable, we HAVE TO make this happen.

#3
#16
Smart
Crowder

for Jimmy Butler

(then sign Whiteside)

I like Ricky Butler, but not this much. I am in the camp that thinks AB is more replaceable using Smart and Rozier. I also think due to his contract (two years shorter than Crowder's) and his value being sky-high right now (All-NBA Defense First Team), he is the one that should go out with the #3 deal in a trade for Ricky Butler.

If Danny needs to add a couple of mid-2nd rounders and either RJ/Young, then fine, but people have to stop treating Ricky Butler like he is a super-duper star. He is very good, but so is the proposed package for a rebuilding team. And there is no way they are getting Wiggins and the #5 for him...none.