Why is everyone down on Bender?

[Celtics18]

TP, Andro.

[vgulab]

Because he need to stay in Europe for year or two before he is ready for NBA. People don't question his talent but taking him at number 3 is crazy.

Jan Vesely had more experience than than Bender and he didn't make it. So if you are drafting so unready player you need to be patient and let him stay in Europe. My opinion is don't waste a top 5 pick on that kind of a player, maybe a top 10 but top 5 no.

[dannyboy35]

I'm not down on Bender. I just can't tell if he's gonna be a bust of an all star.

[dannyboy35]

I've become extremely high on Hield. I jut hope he's available and we grab him.

[ederson]

I truly love the background diversity our green forum brings.
It makes us collectively smarter
I happen to be a minority in this case, and for the sake of the argument, I'll defend my point of view, I think it is healthy for the conversation.
One important note to the "Why Bender isn't 30 mpg player in a weak league?"
1. The Europe is a different animal than NBA structure wise.
Coaches and front offices get paid to win, not to lose, without any exception in a 70-year tradition.
Last year in the NBA there were 4 teams that were paying people to lose games; LAL, Philly, Minny (debatable until Sam Mitchell argument comes up), and Phoenix.
Try to do that in Fener and there will be some fans waiting for you at the parking lot. They won't be looking for the autographs.
If you are coaching to save your job and to win you don't play 18-year-olds that are about to leave the upcoming season 30 MPG.
In Europe, the concept of tanking is unheard of. The Leagues bottom teams get booted to the 2nd division, end of the story, come back when you are good.

Also, the competition in Europe isn't that bad at all, he is playing against full grown men, not teenage about to be pros in a couple of years. These grown men earn their living
I believe in Bender, I just do, he seems a better prospect comparing to all NCAA ones except Ingram (BTW, sturdy Ingram )
Am I biased?  I think I am. I am a proud Croatian. I could use the same analogy in the Americans case.
American fans are biased towards NCAA prospects, who are "far" better than Euros but still 20%-25% of the league are foreigners, more than 100 and trending upward. Some foreign players are from South America (majority of them are nursed in Europe) and some are from Africa and Australia/New Zealand (usually they attend American college)
List of foreign players, in case someone wanted to take a look
http://pr.nba.com/nba-international-players-2015-16-rosters/?ls=iref:nbahpts

I read a point about his stats. At that particular competition (2014) he was very good. Looking at his stats might not impress everyone, but we know stats tell only the half of the story. For example, Marcus Smart would be considered a poor NBA player, and IMO he is a championship material.

14/10 is indeed good production....And stats do tell half the story But can you honestly say that he dominated the competition?? 

You are also right about his competition in Europe... But he is not that better in the local league. And i really hope that you won`t try to compare the israeli league to Euroleague, ACB or even the Italian league. But the same argument should hold also the the Gasols who were mentioned earlier (with a bit wrong ages) 6-7 mins in ACB is not a small accomplishment too playing against future NBAers.

Macabi can never tank you are also right here. But does a top3 pick need a team to tank in order to get play time? In israeli league??? Really?

draft and stash with a top5 pick ...... 

[Androslav]

Because he needs to stay in Europe for year or two before he is ready for NBA. People don't question his talent but taking him at number 3 is crazy.

Jan Vesely had more experience than Bender and he didn't make it. So if you are drafting so unready player you need to be patient and let him stay in Europe. My opinion doesn't waste a top 5 pick on that kind of a player, maybe a top 10 but top 5 no.

I would agree with you 10 years ago.
Right now I think that American coaches do a far better job at developing Juniors-to-seniors transition.
I think Dario Saric (Shar-itch) made a mistake by staying in Efes last 2 years. Americans invest a lot more money and that produces better results in any industry in the long run.

[vgulab]

Because he needs to stay in Europe for year or two before he is ready for NBA. People don't question his talent but taking him at number 3 is crazy.

Jan Vesely had more experience than Bender and he didn't make it. So if you are drafting so unready player you need to be patient and let him stay in Europe. My opinion doesn't waste a top 5 pick on that kind of a player, maybe a top 10 but top 5 no.

I would agree with you 10 years ago.
Right now I think that American coaches do a far better job at developing Juniors-to-seniors transition.
I think Dario Saric (Shar-itch) made a mistake by staying in Efes last 2 years. Americans invest a lot more money and that produces better results in any industry in the long run.

but the thing is if he end up in a team that is not a good fit for him and he doesn't play and stays on the bench he will definitively be a bust.

If Porzingis didn't get minutes he wouldn't develop

[Androslav]

Because he needs to stay in Europe for year or two before he is ready for NBA. People don't question his talent but taking him at number 3 is crazy.

Jan Vesely had more experience than Bender and he didn't make it. So if you are drafting so unready player you need to be patient and let him stay in Europe. My opinion doesn't waste a top 5 pick on that kind of a player, maybe a top 10 but top 5 no.

I would agree with you 10 years ago.
Right now I think that American coaches do a far better job at developing Juniors-to-seniors transition.
I think Dario Saric (Shar-itch) made a mistake by staying in Efes last 2 years. Americans invest a lot more money and that produces better results in any industry in the long run.

but the thing is if he end up in a team that is not a good fit for him and he doesn't play and stays on the bench he will definitively be a bust.

If Porzingis didn't get minutes he wouldn't develop

100% agreed.
Kids need minutes. No one became a player on the bench. 
He is a high ceiling prospect, but also a bust possibility.
We just have to worry about our team and we develop fairly well.
His upside is a better version of Kelly (12th pick), better defender, better playmaker, probably a weaker scorer due to his pass-first mentality. Kind of a taller version of AK47, an opportunistic scorer with more length.
I believe Danny will know what to do.

[cltc5]

Wasn't this a similar situation with the greek freak?  Lots of people seemed to complain about that one.

As it has been pointed ad nauseum by now, Anthetokounmpo wasn't the third pick in the draft.

But Bender has a higher ceiling than Giannis.

This ceiling word is deadly

James Young still has more "upside" than  many guys from the 2015 draft. But You think Utah for example would trade hood for him??

Once bender rots on a NBA bench, his value with sink deeper than......

James Young never had 'Ceiling'.  The guys only upsides were his outside shooting and the fact that he has excellent size for a guard.

He was always a garbage defender, he was never a quality ball handler or passer, he always had terrible basketball IQ, and he was always pretty mediocre athletically.

James Young looked like he wa going to be a bum from day one, and i still have no clue why half the people here believed otherwise.

The only thing he could do was shoot threes.  How often do guys of that description EVER become anything in he NBA? 

People just obsess over anybody who it's young.  Somehow being 18 or 19 instantly meabs you uave a high ceiling.  I think if my overweight butt was in the draft and i was 18, people would rave about my upside.

As for the OP's question, People are down on bender bevause right now he pretty much looks like a miss first round talent at best.  The only thing he does well is be versatile on defense - its his one little trick.  Everything else he's average at best with, but people are overblowing how good he is at various things seemingly because they are having Porzingis chills and want to buy in on the international hype.

Bender has done nothing to show hes deserving of a top 3 pick.  He's a more mobile (but far weaker and rawer) version of Kelly Olynyk - and Olynyk went 13th in 2014 mostly because of his age.

And that's where the penny drops. Bender it's yet another rookies to be overhyped because of his age.

I can't tp this enough

[footey]

His coach recently sat him out during a blow out game win. Makes you wonder what they are trying to do there.

[crimson_stallion]

I truly love the background diversity our green forum brings.
It makes us collectively smarter
I happen to be a minority in this case, and for the sake of the argument, I'll defend my point of view, I think it is healthy for the conversation.
One important note to the "Why Bender isn't 30 mpg player in a weak league?"
1. The Europe is a different animal than NBA structure wise.
Coaches and front offices get paid to win, not to lose, without any exception in a 70-year tradition.
Last year in the NBA there were 4 teams that were paying people to lose games; LAL, Philly, Minny (debatable until Sam Mitchell argument comes up), and Phoenix.
Try to do that in Fener and there will be some fans waiting for you at the parking lot. They won't be looking for the autographs.
If you are coaching to save your job and to win you don't play 18-year-olds that are about to leave the upcoming season 30 MPG.
In Europe, the concept of tanking is unheard of. The Leagues bottom teams get booted to the 2nd division, end of the story, come back when you are good.

Also, the competition in Europe isn't that bad at all, he is playing against full grown men, not teenage about to be pros in a couple of years. These grown men earn their living on the court.
I believe in Bender, I just do, he seems a better prospect comparing to all NCAA ones except Ingram (BTW, sturdy Ingram )
Am I biased?  I think I am. I am a proud Croatian. I could use the same analogy in the Americans case.
American fans are biased towards NCAA prospects, who are "far" better than Euros but still 20%-25% of the league are foreigners, more than 100 and trending upward. Mostly the foreign players are Euros, some are from South America (majority of them are still nursed in Europe) and some are from Africa and Australia/New Zealand (usually they attend American college)
List of foreign players, in case someone wanted to take a look
http://pr.nba.com/nba-international-players-2015-16-rosters/?ls=iref:nbahpts

I read a point about his stats. At that particular competition (2014) he was very good, the best player on a 3rd best team. Looking at his stats might not impress everyone, but we know stats tell only the half of the story. For example, Marcus Smart would be considered a poor NBA player, and IMO he is a championship material.

I am a second generation Croatian ( both my parents are Croatian, i was born in Australia). 

I still think there are at least 5 guys in this draft with significantly higher upside then Bender:

- Simmons
- Ingram
- Dunn
- Hield
- Labissiere

Four of those 5 guys are low risk, with Skal being the only one who is a big gamble.

That's honestly being generous too, because  I would probably also select Murray, Brown and Poeltl over Bender.

Then I'd have Bender at #9 followed by Ellenson, Valentine, Chriss and Sabonis ( not necessarily in that order).

To be completely honest i think Sabonis is basically a consistent three point shot away from being a better prospect then Bender. 

I think Bemder is justifiable pick anywhere in the 8-15 range.  Any earlier 4th then that, i think hes just not worth it.

Also, what magic treasure chest are people pulling this 7'2" height out of?!?!? In the last Eurocamp (2015) Bender measured 7'0.5", with a 7'2" wingspan.  Thats pretty much Greg Monroe size.

[crimson_stallion]

Because he needs to stay in Europe for year or two before he is ready for NBA. People don't question his talent but taking him at number 3 is crazy.

Jan Vesely had more experience than Bender and he didn't make it. So if you are drafting so unready player you need to be patient and let him stay in Europe. My opinion doesn't waste a top 5 pick on that kind of a player, maybe a top 10 but top 5 no.

I would agree with you 10 years ago.
Right now I think that American coaches do a far better job at developing Juniors-to-seniors transition.
I think Dario Saric (Shar-itch) made a mistake by staying in Efes last 2 years. Americans invest a lot more money and that produces better results in any industry in the long run.

but the thing is if he end up in a team that is not a good fit for him and he doesn't play and stays on the bench he will definitively be a bust.

If Porzingis didn't get minutes he wouldn't develop

100% agreed.
Kids need minutes. No one became a player on the bench. 
He is a high ceiling prospect, but also a bust possibility.
We just have to worry about our team and we develop fairly well.
His upside is a better version of Kelly (12th pick), better defender, better playmaker, probably a weaker scorer due to his pass-first mentality. Kind of a taller version of AK47, an opportunistic scorer with more length.
I believe Danny will know what to do.

I dont see the Kirilenko comparison.  AK47 was a FAR superior athlete,  a FAR superior defensive player, and a FAR superior scorer.  He was giving the 2000 Dream Team trouble while playing for the Russian national team as an 18-19 yar old in the Olympics.  Kirilenko as a 19 year old had darn near Vince Carter levels of athleticism, and he was very capable scorer and an elite defender.

Bender's athleticism is roughly on par with Poeltl (maybe a tad better).  The hype train in running overtime in regards to his athletic ability. He is no Anthony Davis / Nerlens Noel / Deandre Jordan people.  He's just a 7 footer who runs the floor pretty well. 

I'm not sure if he's athleticism is even a match for a 28 year old, plantar fasciitis suffering Amir Johnson.  My guess would be no based on the footage I've seen thus far.

Actually, a 7 foot Amir Johnson is a pretty good idea of the type of player i could see Bender becoming in the future.  Valuable guy who plays hard and helps his team win, but never at risk of being confused for a star.

Also, that's a big call referring to Bemder as a better playmaker then Olynyk.  Olynyk is an exceptional playmaker and ball handler for a 7 footer, and i don't se Bender matching his ability in eother of those areas (or as a shooter).  Better defender though, i agree with that. About on par as a rebounder.

[crimson_stallion]

I've become extremely high on Hield. I jut hope he's available and we grab him.

Same. 

I'm very high on Dunn and Hield, and i can't decide which i like better.

I think both guys habe sky high upside, and eother one could end up being the best player in this draft when we look back in 2-3 years from now.

To be honest, i dont think the drop off from Simmons/Ingram to Hield/Dunn is nearly as great as people think.  Simmons and Ingram do have a higher ceiling, but they both also habe a higher risk.  I actually wouldn't be completely shocked if one of those two guys jumps up into 2nd (like Russell did last year).

Both have NBA caliber strength, size amd athleticism, and both guys have the meabs to get theur shots off against NBA defence (Dunn because of his ballhandling and explosive athleticism, Hield because of his size amd rediculous range), both can get to the basket, and both have the tools to become good ( and versatile) defensive players.  If it werent for their age, i would have them right up there with Ingram/Simmons.

[gift]

Because he needs to stay in Europe for year or two before he is ready for NBA. People don't question his talent but taking him at number 3 is crazy.

Jan Vesely had more experience than Bender and he didn't make it. So if you are drafting so unready player you need to be patient and let him stay in Europe. My opinion doesn't waste a top 5 pick on that kind of a player, maybe a top 10 but top 5 no.

I would agree with you 10 years ago.
Right now I think that American coaches do a far better job at developing Juniors-to-seniors transition.
I think Dario Saric (Shar-itch) made a mistake by staying in Efes last 2 years. Americans invest a lot more money and that produces better results in any industry in the long run.

but the thing is if he end up in a team that is not a good fit for him and he doesn't play and stays on the bench he will definitively be a bust.

If Porzingis didn't get minutes he wouldn't develop

100% agreed.
Kids need minutes. No one became a player on the bench. 
He is a high ceiling prospect, but also a bust possibility.
We just have to worry about our team and we develop fairly well.
His upside is a better version of Kelly (12th pick), better defender, better playmaker, probably a weaker scorer due to his pass-first mentality. Kind of a taller version of AK47, an opportunistic scorer with more length.
I believe Danny will know what to do.

I dont see the Kirilenko comparison.  AK47 was a FAR superior athlete,  a FAR superior defensive player, and a FAR superior scorer.  He was giving the 2000 Dream Team trouble while playing for the Russian national team as an 18-19 yar old in the Olympics.  Kirilenko as a 19 year old had darn near Vince Carter levels of athleticism, and he was very capable scorer and an elite defender.

Bender's athleticism is roughly on par with Poeltl (maybe a tad better).  The hype train in running overtime in regards to his athletic ability. He is no Anthony Davis / Nerlens Noel / Deandre Jordan people.  He's just a 7 footer who runs the floor pretty well. 

I'm not sure if he's athleticism is even a match for a 28 year old, plantar fasciitis suffering Amir Johnson.  My guess would be no based on the footage I've seen thus far.

Actually, a 7 foot Amir Johnson is a pretty good idea of the type of player i could see Bender becoming in the future.  Valuable guy who plays hard and helps his team win, but never at risk of being confused for a star.

Also, that's a big call referring to Bemder as a better playmaker then Olynyk.  Olynyk is an exceptional playmaker and ball handler for a 7 footer, and i don't se Bender matching his ability in eother of those areas (or as a shooter).  Better defender though, i agree with that. About on par as a rebounder.

I think you've overrated Kirilenko's athleticism. His length was more useful than his athleticism. There are many more guys you could more accurately compare his athleticism to than Vince Carter.

I agree with you on the Olynyk comp though. I see Bender as a guy who could be a better, defensive version of Olynyk. One who hopefully wasn't shy and pump fake happy.

[crimson_stallion]

Because he needs to stay in Europe for year or two before he is ready for NBA. People don't question his talent but taking him at number 3 is crazy.

Jan Vesely had more experience than Bender and he didn't make it. So if you are drafting so unready player you need to be patient and let him stay in Europe. My opinion doesn't waste a top 5 pick on that kind of a player, maybe a top 10 but top 5 no.

I would agree with you 10 years ago.
Right now I think that American coaches do a far better job at developing Juniors-to-seniors transition.
I think Dario Saric (Shar-itch) made a mistake by staying in Efes last 2 years. Americans invest a lot more money and that produces better results in any industry in the long run.

but the thing is if he end up in a team that is not a good fit for him and he doesn't play and stays on the bench he will definitively be a bust.

If Porzingis didn't get minutes he wouldn't develop

100% agreed.
Kids need minutes. No one became a player on the bench. 
He is a high ceiling prospect, but also a bust possibility.
We just have to worry about our team and we develop fairly well.
His upside is a better version of Kelly (12th pick), better defender, better playmaker, probably a weaker scorer due to his pass-first mentality. Kind of a taller version of AK47, an opportunistic scorer with more length.
I believe Danny will know what to do.

I dont see the Kirilenko comparison.  AK47 was a FAR superior athlete,  a FAR superior defensive player, and a FAR superior scorer.  He was giving the 2000 Dream Team trouble while playing for the Russian national team as an 18-19 yar old in the Olympics.  Kirilenko as a 19 year old had darn near Vince Carter levels of athleticism, and he was very capable scorer and an elite defender.

Bender's athleticism is roughly on par with Poeltl (maybe a tad better).  The hype train in running overtime in regards to his athletic ability. He is no Anthony Davis / Nerlens Noel / Deandre Jordan people.  He's just a 7 footer who runs the floor pretty well. 

I'm not sure if he's athleticism is even a match for a 28 year old, plantar fasciitis suffering Amir Johnson.  My guess would be no based on the footage I've seen thus far.

Actually, a 7 foot Amir Johnson is a pretty good idea of the type of player i could see Bender becoming in the future.  Valuable guy who plays hard and helps his team win, but never at risk of being confused for a star.

Also, that's a big call referring to Bemder as a better playmaker then Olynyk.  Olynyk is an exceptional playmaker and ball handler for a 7 footer, and i don't se Bender matching his ability in eother of those areas (or as a shooter).  Better defender though, i agree with that. About on par as a rebounder.

I think you've overrated Kirilenko's athleticism. His length was more useful than his athleticism. There are many more guys you could more accurately compare his athleticism to than Vince Carter.

I agree with you on the Olynyk comp though. I see Bender as a guy who could be a better, defensive version of Olynyk. One who hopefully wasn't shy and pump fake happy.

Kirilenko had a 7'4" wingspan, ran the floor like a gazelle, and I've read reports that his vertical had been measured at 44 inches.  I remember watching him in the olympic games at 19, feeling quite in awe at what he was capable of for his size.  Reminded me of a white Dominique Wilkins.  His athletocism was definately well beyond Bender's...but then Bender is also 7 feet tall so that's somewhat expected.