Author Topic: Voisin of Sacramento Bee: Cousins must be traded  (Read 21964 times)

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Re: Voisin of Sacramento Bee: Cousins must be traded
« Reply #90 on: March 17, 2016, 12:59:05 PM »

Offline IDreamCeltics

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Just for the record people, Sacramento's records over the past 6 years with and without Cousins in the lineup (ignored rookie year, as he only missed 1 game):


2011/12 Kings
Overall record: 22-44, 0.333 (66 games)
Record with Cousins: 20-44, 0.313 (64 games)
Record without Cousins: 2-0, 1.000 (2 games)


2012/13 Kings
Overall record: 28-54, 0.341 (82 games)
Record with Cousins: 26-49, 0.346 (75 games)
Record without Cousins: 2-5, 0.286 (7 games)


2013/14 Kings
Overall record: 28-54, 0.341 (82 games)
Record with Cousins: 28-43, 0.394 (71 games)
Record without Cousins: 0-11, 0.000 (11 games)


2014/15 Kings
Overall record: 29-53, 0.354 (82 games)
Record with Cousins: 23-36, 0.390 (59 games)
Record without Cousins: 6-17, 0.261 (23 games)


2015/16 Kings
Overall record: 26-40, 0.394 (66 games)
Record with Cousins: 24-32, 0.428 (56 games)
Record without Cousins: 2-8, 0.200 (10 games)


Total Record: 133-245, 0.352 (378 games)
Total record with Cousins: 121-204, 0.372 (325 games)
Total record without Cousins: 12-41, 0.226 (53 games)

Estimated wins per 82 games with Cousins: 30.53
Estimated total wins per 82 games without Cousins: 18.57
Estimated wins added per 82 games with cousins: +11.96

According to pure statistics, Cousins has added an average of about 12 wins per season to his team.

Celtics current win record: 39-29, 0.574 (68 games)
Celtics record projection at current pace: 47-35, 0.573, #4 seed
Celtics record projection with Cousins added (+12 wins): 59-23, 0.720, #1 seed

It ain't perfect, but it's some indication of how much a player of Cousin's calibre can impact a team...or more importantly, impact THIS team.

First off TP for a thoughtful contribution to the conversation.

However, the soul mission of each coach over the last six seasons has been to build an offense around Boogie Cousins.  Each coach has done that and the team has been a complete failure while his personal stats have soared. 

It doesn't really mean anything to me that the Kings have been slightly worse without the focal point of their entire system on the court, that's what's supposed to happen.  What means MUCH more to me is how abysmal they've been while they've HAD HIM.  When Cousins plays big minutes the Kings still suck.
       

Re: Voisin of Sacramento Bee: Cousins must be traded
« Reply #91 on: March 17, 2016, 01:57:48 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Just for the record people, Sacramento's records over the past 6 years with and without Cousins in the lineup (ignored rookie year, as he only missed 1 game):


2011/12 Kings
Overall record: 22-44, 0.333 (66 games)
Record with Cousins: 20-44, 0.313 (64 games)
Record without Cousins: 2-0, 1.000 (2 games)


2012/13 Kings
Overall record: 28-54, 0.341 (82 games)
Record with Cousins: 26-49, 0.346 (75 games)
Record without Cousins: 2-5, 0.286 (7 games)


2013/14 Kings
Overall record: 28-54, 0.341 (82 games)
Record with Cousins: 28-43, 0.394 (71 games)
Record without Cousins: 0-11, 0.000 (11 games)


2014/15 Kings
Overall record: 29-53, 0.354 (82 games)
Record with Cousins: 23-36, 0.390 (59 games)
Record without Cousins: 6-17, 0.261 (23 games)


2015/16 Kings
Overall record: 26-40, 0.394 (66 games)
Record with Cousins: 24-32, 0.428 (56 games)
Record without Cousins: 2-8, 0.200 (10 games)


Total Record: 133-245, 0.352 (378 games)
Total record with Cousins: 121-204, 0.372 (325 games)
Total record without Cousins: 12-41, 0.226 (53 games)

Estimated wins per 82 games with Cousins: 30.53
Estimated total wins per 82 games without Cousins: 18.57
Estimated wins added per 82 games with cousins: +11.96

According to pure statistics, Cousins has added an average of about 12 wins per season to his team.

Celtics current win record: 39-29, 0.574 (68 games)
Celtics record projection at current pace: 47-35, 0.573, #4 seed
Celtics record projection with Cousins added (+12 wins): 59-23, 0.720, #1 seed

It ain't perfect, but it's some indication of how much a player of Cousin's calibre can impact a team...or more importantly, impact THIS team.

First off TP for a thoughtful contribution to the conversation.

However, the soul mission of each coach over the last six seasons has been to build an offense around Boogie Cousins.  Each coach has done that and the team has been a complete failure while his personal stats have soared. 

It doesn't really mean anything to me that the Kings have been slightly worse without the focal point of their entire system on the court, that's what's supposed to happen.  What means MUCH more to me is how abysmal they've been while they've HAD HIM.  When Cousins plays big minutes the Kings still suck.
     
Those stats are about games played, not actual time on the floor.  The Kings are about even with Cousins in the game and about 7.5 points worse without him in the game.  That is the this year, in years past the discrepancy has been even greater.
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Re: Voisin of Sacramento Bee: Cousins must be traded
« Reply #92 on: March 17, 2016, 03:57:54 PM »

Online Roy H.

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What means MUCH more to me is how abysmal they've been while they've HAD HIM.  When Cousins plays big minutes the Kings still suck.

To be clear:  The Kings aren't abysmal when Cousins is playing.  They don't suck when he's in the game.  They have actually outscored opponents on the season, as they did last season.

It's when Cousins sits that the Kings fall apart.

I think people overlook this.  Look at the best players on fellow lottery teams:

Philly - Okafor: -495
Lakers - Russell: -362
Suns - Knight: -173
Nets - Lopez: -124
Twolves - KAT: -123
Pelicans - Davis: -189
Kings - Cousins: +19
Knicks - Carmelo: -40
Nuggets - Gallinari: -101

It is extremely rare for even a great player to have a positive point differential when he is playing for a lottery team.  Of the nine worst teams in the league, Sacramento is the only one where the star player carries his team to a positive +/- when he's playing.  And, this year isn't a fluke.  He did the same thing last year.

Cousins is a game-changing talent.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2016, 04:07:58 PM by Roy H. »


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Re: Voisin of Sacramento Bee: Cousins must be traded
« Reply #93 on: March 17, 2016, 04:31:00 PM »

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Got the car warmed up.

Ready to pick him up .

Cousins and CBS .....

Take us home ....#18

Re: Voisin of Sacramento Bee: Cousins must be traded
« Reply #94 on: March 17, 2016, 06:08:36 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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By the end of KG's 5th year in the league he finished 2nd in MVP voting (he was 10th the year before).  He had been an all star 3 times.  Been on an All NBA team twice and All Defensive team once.    Cousins had been an all star once by the end of his 5th year.  Cousins did have more top ten finishes in ppg and rpg than Garnett through 5 years so there is that. 

Cousins is better statistically but his impact on the game just isn't there because he wasn't nearly the defender than KG was.

Yet KG wasn't nearly the offensive player Cousins is when he was at the same age / experience level.

I think we may as well agree to disagree since I'm sure we can both find no end of arguments, facts and hypotheticals to throw back and forth on the subject and it's obvious that neither of us is going to change our stance regardless, so ultimately continuing along the KG/DMC comparison path is probably going to be a fruitless exercise!

The simple fact of the matter is that Kevin Garnett is one of the greatest big men to ever play the game, and I believe the fact that we can even compare Cousins to him at such a young age (and genuinely debate it) speaks volumes about how impressive a talent DMC really is.

He is a lion. Albeit one that needs taming.

Re: Voisin of Sacramento Bee: Cousins must be traded
« Reply #95 on: March 17, 2016, 06:11:08 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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What means MUCH more to me is how abysmal they've been while they've HAD HIM.  When Cousins plays big minutes the Kings still suck.

To be clear:  The Kings aren't abysmal when Cousins is playing.  They don't suck when he's in the game.  They have actually outscored opponents on the season, as they did last season.

It's when Cousins sits that the Kings fall apart.

I think people overlook this.  Look at the best players on fellow lottery teams:

Philly - Okafor: -495
Lakers - Russell: -362
Suns - Knight: -173
Nets - Lopez: -124
Twolves - KAT: -123
Pelicans - Davis: -189
Kings - Cousins: +19
Knicks - Carmelo: -40
Nuggets - Gallinari: -101

It is extremely rare for even a great player to have a positive point differential when he is playing for a lottery team.  Of the nine worst teams in the league, Sacramento is the only one where the star player carries his team to a positive +/- when he's playing.  And, this year isn't a fluke.  He did the same thing last year.

Cousins is a game-changing talent.

TP for a well backed argument :)

Re: Voisin of Sacramento Bee: Cousins must be traded
« Reply #96 on: March 18, 2016, 01:14:12 PM »

Offline Moranis

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By the end of KG's 5th year in the league he finished 2nd in MVP voting (he was 10th the year before).  He had been an all star 3 times.  Been on an All NBA team twice and All Defensive team once.    Cousins had been an all star once by the end of his 5th year.  Cousins did have more top ten finishes in ppg and rpg than Garnett through 5 years so there is that. 

Cousins is better statistically but his impact on the game just isn't there because he wasn't nearly the defender than KG was.

Yet KG wasn't nearly the offensive player Cousins is when he was at the same age / experience level.

I think we may as well agree to disagree since I'm sure we can both find no end of arguments, facts and hypotheticals to throw back and forth on the subject and it's obvious that neither of us is going to change our stance regardless, so ultimately continuing along the KG/DMC comparison path is probably going to be a fruitless exercise!

The simple fact of the matter is that Kevin Garnett is one of the greatest big men to ever play the game, and I believe the fact that we can even compare Cousins to him at such a young age (and genuinely debate it) speaks volumes about how impressive a talent DMC really is.

He is a lion. Albeit one that needs taming.
KG was never the offensive player that Cousins is.  But Cousins isn't even in the same league defensively.  Cousins is a dominant big man offensively.  His closest recent comparison is Shaq.  That is how good he is in the low block.  Cousins just isn't that sort of player on defense and he never will be.  That is the reason the Kings don't win more games. 

That said, I would love Cousins and would want him more than any other potentially available (by trade) player in the league.  You can't teach his size or offensive skill.  He is just that good. 
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Re: Voisin of Sacramento Bee: Cousins must be traded
« Reply #97 on: March 18, 2016, 01:27:37 PM »

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KG was never the offensive player that Cousins is.

I'm looking at the numbers and I am just not seeing any evidence of this.
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Re: Voisin of Sacramento Bee: Cousins must be traded
« Reply #98 on: March 20, 2016, 09:46:11 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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KG was never the offensive player that Cousins is.

I'm looking at the numbers and I am just not seeing any evidence of this.

I'm not sure why you are struggling so much.

In KG's entire career he has averaged 21+ Points Per 36 only twice - in 04/05 and in 05/06. Cousins has already managed that in four out of six seasons.

KG's career high was 22 Points Per 36 - Cousins has just put together three straight seasons of 25, 25 and 28 points Per 36.

As far as offensive efficiency, KG has a career average of 1.23 Points Per FGA.  Cousins has a career average of 1.26 points Per FGA and hasn't even reached his prime yet. 

That number is only going to go up since he added a three point shot, as evidenced by his 1.32 Points Per FGA this year.

Cousins' career Free Throw Rate of 45.2% is in an entire other realm compared to KG's of 29.3%. 

In fact Cousins' lowest ever FTR was an outstanding 37.3%, and KG has matched that only 3 times in his entire career.

Cousins has now added the talent of being a legit three point thread, which makes him quite possible THE most deadly inside-outside threat in the NBA.  KG has three point range, but he was never a real threat from there to the point where defenders really had truly respect it, or coaches had to truly gameplan against it.

KG is probably one of the greatest midrange shooting bigs ever to play the game, one of the best passing bigs ever to play the game, and he was also an excellent finisher around the basket.  However his game as also very strongly focussed on finesse and athleticism, and as his physical abilities faded, so to did his ability to consistently carry an offense.  In his later years in Boston he rarely played in the post, instead tending to settle for long midrange jumpers - which he did hit at a nice rate, so that allowed him to remain effective (if not dominant) offensively.

Cousins doesn't rely on quickness and athleticism - he's all about size, power, skill and brute strength.  That stuff sticks with you as you get older, so I feel he will probably age better than KG if he learns how to control his emotions.  The ability to overpower guys in the paint combined with his ability pass and step out to the three point line is an impressive combination - it should allow his game to age very gracefully. 

When looking at KG's stats you need to be very careful not to be caught up in raw numbers.  KG played in an era where teams were not stacked like they are now, and so start players tended to play massive minutes.  Like many guys at the time (Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady, Kobe Bryant, etc) KG was playing up around 40 minutes a night during his prime years, and that elevates his production.

Now days barely anybody plays those kinds of minutes, and Cousins tends to be only around the 32-34 MPG level.  Once you adjust for minutes played, KG's scoring numbers are not even close to DMC's.  You're talking about a guy who peaked at 22 Points Per 36 versus a guy who is currently average 28 Points Per 36 - that's offensive production on a whole other level.

Re: Voisin of Sacramento Bee: Cousins must be traded
« Reply #99 on: March 20, 2016, 10:32:17 PM »

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KG was never the offensive player that Cousins is.

I'm looking at the numbers and I am just not seeing any evidence of this.

I'm not sure why you are struggling so much.

In KG's entire career he has averaged 21+ Points Per 36 only twice - in 04/05 and in 05/06. Cousins has already managed that in four out of six seasons.

KG's career high was 22 Points Per 36 - Cousins has just put together three straight seasons of 25, 25 and 28 points Per 36.

As far as offensive efficiency, KG has a career average of 1.23 Points Per FGA.  Cousins has a career average of 1.26 points Per FGA and hasn't even reached his prime yet. 

That number is only going to go up since he added a three point shot, as evidenced by his 1.32 Points Per FGA this year.

Cousins' career Free Throw Rate of 45.2% is in an entire other realm compared to KG's of 29.3%. 

In fact Cousins' lowest ever FTR was an outstanding 37.3%, and KG has matched that only 3 times in his entire career.

Cousins has now added the talent of being a legit three point thread, which makes him quite possible THE most deadly inside-outside threat in the NBA.  KG has three point range, but he was never a real threat from there to the point where defenders really had truly respect it, or coaches had to truly gameplan against it.

KG is probably one of the greatest midrange shooting bigs ever to play the game, one of the best passing bigs ever to play the game, and he was also an excellent finisher around the basket.  However his game as also very strongly focussed on finesse and athleticism, and as his physical abilities faded, so to did his ability to consistently carry an offense.  In his later years in Boston he rarely played in the post, instead tending to settle for long midrange jumpers - which he did hit at a nice rate, so that allowed him to remain effective (if not dominant) offensively.

Cousins doesn't rely on quickness and athleticism - he's all about size, power, skill and brute strength.  That stuff sticks with you as you get older, so I feel he will probably age better than KG if he learns how to control his emotions.  The ability to overpower guys in the paint combined with his ability pass and step out to the three point line is an impressive combination - it should allow his game to age very gracefully. 

When looking at KG's stats you need to be very careful not to be caught up in raw numbers.  KG played in an era where teams were not stacked like they are now, and so start players tended to play massive minutes.  Like many guys at the time (Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady, Kobe Bryant, etc) KG was playing up around 40 minutes a night during his prime years, and that elevates his production.

Now days barely anybody plays those kinds of minutes, and Cousins tends to be only around the 32-34 MPG level.  Once you adjust for minutes played, KG's scoring numbers are not even close to DMC's.  You're talking about a guy who peaked at 22 Points Per 36 versus a guy who is currently average 28 Points Per 36 - that's offensive production on a whole other level.

Just because he takes more shots than KG doesn't  mean he's a better player. He takes more shots and hits them 3 %-5% worse than KG.
KG also took an insane amount of long jumpshots as you mention.
His combined offensive and defensive impact are nore valuable than Cousins and lead to more wins.
Kevin Garnett is a better iverall player than DMC.
Both incredible players, but  KG's defensive impact and VORP destroy Cousins. That's not to say DMC is a bad defender,  KG is top 5 all time defense whilst scoring at a better FG%.
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Re: Voisin of Sacramento Bee: Cousins must be traded
« Reply #100 on: March 20, 2016, 10:45:11 PM »

Offline saltlover

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KG was never the offensive player that Cousins is.

I'm looking at the numbers and I am just not seeing any evidence of this.

I'm not sure why you are struggling so much.

In KG's entire career he has averaged 21+ Points Per 36 only twice - in 04/05 and in 05/06. Cousins has already managed that in four out of six seasons.

KG's career high was 22 Points Per 36 - Cousins has just put together three straight seasons of 25, 25 and 28 points Per 36.

As far as offensive efficiency, KG has a career average of 1.23 Points Per FGA.  Cousins has a career average of 1.26 points Per FGA and hasn't even reached his prime yet. 

That number is only going to go up since he added a three point shot, as evidenced by his 1.32 Points Per FGA this year.

Cousins' career Free Throw Rate of 45.2% is in an entire other realm compared to KG's of 29.3%. 

In fact Cousins' lowest ever FTR was an outstanding 37.3%, and KG has matched that only 3 times in his entire career.

Cousins has now added the talent of being a legit three point thread, which makes him quite possible THE most deadly inside-outside threat in the NBA.  KG has three point range, but he was never a real threat from there to the point where defenders really had truly respect it, or coaches had to truly gameplan against it.

KG is probably one of the greatest midrange shooting bigs ever to play the game, one of the best passing bigs ever to play the game, and he was also an excellent finisher around the basket.  However his game as also very strongly focussed on finesse and athleticism, and as his physical abilities faded, so to did his ability to consistently carry an offense.  In his later years in Boston he rarely played in the post, instead tending to settle for long midrange jumpers - which he did hit at a nice rate, so that allowed him to remain effective (if not dominant) offensively.

Cousins doesn't rely on quickness and athleticism - he's all about size, power, skill and brute strength.  That stuff sticks with you as you get older, so I feel he will probably age better than KG if he learns how to control his emotions.  The ability to overpower guys in the paint combined with his ability pass and step out to the three point line is an impressive combination - it should allow his game to age very gracefully. 

When looking at KG's stats you need to be very careful not to be caught up in raw numbers.  KG played in an era where teams were not stacked like they are now, and so start players tended to play massive minutes.  Like many guys at the time (Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady, Kobe Bryant, etc) KG was playing up around 40 minutes a night during his prime years, and that elevates his production.

Now days barely anybody plays those kinds of minutes, and Cousins tends to be only around the 32-34 MPG level.  Once you adjust for minutes played, KG's scoring numbers are not even close to DMC's.  You're talking about a guy who peaked at 22 Points Per 36 versus a guy who is currently average 28 Points Per 36 - that's offensive production on a whole other level.

Just because he takes more shots than KG doesn't  mean he's a better player. He takes more shots and hits them 3 %-5% worse than KG.
KG also took an insane amount of long jumpshots as you mention.
His combined offensive and defensive impact are nore valuable than Cousins and lead to more wins.
Kevin Garnett is a better iverall player than DMC.
Both incredible players, but  KG's defensive impact and VORP destroy Cousins. That's not to say DMC is a bad defender,  KG is top 5 all time defense whilst scoring at a better FG%.

That's what the points per field goal attempted was about.  Cousins takes more shots, but scores more per attempt, partly due to three pointers, and largely because he gets to the line a lot more than KG (something that even as a fan of his I wish he was better at).  I love KG, and would take him over Cousins at any equal age, but Cousins is better on offense.  KG's defense and leadership more than make up for it, but Cousins is a fantastic scoring big man.

Re: Voisin of Sacramento Bee: Cousins must be traded
« Reply #101 on: March 20, 2016, 11:13:49 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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KG was never the offensive player that Cousins is.

I'm looking at the numbers and I am just not seeing any evidence of this.

I'm not sure why you are struggling so much.

In KG's entire career he has averaged 21+ Points Per 36 only twice - in 04/05 and in 05/06. Cousins has already managed that in four out of six seasons.

KG's career high was 22 Points Per 36 - Cousins has just put together three straight seasons of 25, 25 and 28 points Per 36.

As far as offensive efficiency, KG has a career average of 1.23 Points Per FGA.  Cousins has a career average of 1.26 points Per FGA and hasn't even reached his prime yet. 

That number is only going to go up since he added a three point shot, as evidenced by his 1.32 Points Per FGA this year.

Cousins' career Free Throw Rate of 45.2% is in an entire other realm compared to KG's of 29.3%. 

In fact Cousins' lowest ever FTR was an outstanding 37.3%, and KG has matched that only 3 times in his entire career.

Cousins has now added the talent of being a legit three point thread, which makes him quite possible THE most deadly inside-outside threat in the NBA.  KG has three point range, but he was never a real threat from there to the point where defenders really had truly respect it, or coaches had to truly gameplan against it.

KG is probably one of the greatest midrange shooting bigs ever to play the game, one of the best passing bigs ever to play the game, and he was also an excellent finisher around the basket.  However his game as also very strongly focussed on finesse and athleticism, and as his physical abilities faded, so to did his ability to consistently carry an offense.  In his later years in Boston he rarely played in the post, instead tending to settle for long midrange jumpers - which he did hit at a nice rate, so that allowed him to remain effective (if not dominant) offensively.

Cousins doesn't rely on quickness and athleticism - he's all about size, power, skill and brute strength.  That stuff sticks with you as you get older, so I feel he will probably age better than KG if he learns how to control his emotions.  The ability to overpower guys in the paint combined with his ability pass and step out to the three point line is an impressive combination - it should allow his game to age very gracefully. 

When looking at KG's stats you need to be very careful not to be caught up in raw numbers.  KG played in an era where teams were not stacked like they are now, and so start players tended to play massive minutes.  Like many guys at the time (Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady, Kobe Bryant, etc) KG was playing up around 40 minutes a night during his prime years, and that elevates his production.

Now days barely anybody plays those kinds of minutes, and Cousins tends to be only around the 32-34 MPG level.  Once you adjust for minutes played, KG's scoring numbers are not even close to DMC's.  You're talking about a guy who peaked at 22 Points Per 36 versus a guy who is currently average 28 Points Per 36 - that's offensive production on a whole other level.

Just because he takes more shots than KG doesn't  mean he's a better player. He takes more shots and hits them 3 %-5% worse than KG.
KG also took an insane amount of long jumpshots as you mention.
His combined offensive and defensive impact are nore valuable than Cousins and lead to more wins.
Kevin Garnett is a better iverall player than DMC.
Both incredible players, but  KG's defensive impact and VORP destroy Cousins. That's not to say DMC is a bad defender,  KG is top 5 all time defense whilst scoring at a better FG%.

That's what the points per field goal attempted was about.  Cousins takes more shots, but scores more per attempt, partly due to three pointers, and largely because he gets to the line a lot more than KG (something that even as a fan of his I wish he was better at).  I love KG, and would take him over Cousins at any equal age, but Cousins is better on offense.  KG's defense and leadership more than make up for it, but Cousins is a fantastic scoring big man.

Agree 100% with everything you just said.

Re: Voisin of Sacramento Bee: Cousins must be traded
« Reply #102 on: March 20, 2016, 11:37:34 PM »

Offline Sievers81

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Cousins shoved a MSG security guard tonight who was simply walking off the court after doing his job. Wasn't a whole lot in it, doubt any further action will be taken but it was completely unprofessional and unnecessary. Says a lot about what type of person he is at least on the court.

Re: Voisin of Sacramento Bee: Cousins must be traded
« Reply #103 on: March 20, 2016, 11:45:10 PM »

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Cousins shoved a MSG security guard tonight who was simply walking off the court after doing his job. Wasn't a whole lot in it, doubt any further action will be taken but it was completely unprofessional and unnecessary. Says a lot about what type of person he is at least on the court.

That's not really accurate.  The guy wasn't "simply walking off the court".

http://247sports.com/Bolt/DeMarcus-Cousins-shoves-a-Madison-Square-Garden-security-guard-44384550

Cousins' brushed off somebody who came up behind him, made contact from behind, and appeared to be steering Cousins with his hand on Cousins' back.  There's no need to sensationalize.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2016, 05:43:37 AM by Roy H. »


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: Voisin of Sacramento Bee: Cousins must be traded
« Reply #104 on: March 21, 2016, 12:26:07 AM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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Roy and saltlover have ended the thread, possibly internet. CsBlog is great.
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