Should we have signed Biyombo?

[saltlover]

To be clear, I was interested in Biyombo last season, and last summer as a potential bargain guy if we missed out on everyone.  But right now we have (I think) the 2nd best defensive rating in the NBA, while we're in the 20s on offense.  So I don't think we really missed out on signing a player who is a defensive specialist, given how the team has performed the first two months.  It's not a knock on Biyombo, and I think Toronto got a bargain -- I just don't really think he's what this team is missing.

[slamtheking]

The fact is you have no idea which GMs are warm on Sully's long term potential, and which aren't. Sure, it's unlikely that anyone sees him as the next Tim Duncan -- I'm talking about relative perspective and value.

The same could be said of you, in regards that you have no idea that the GMs like Sully.  I would guess the following to be true.

I would bet that they love his rebounding and hands - this is undeniable and there will always be someone who values these qualities.

very important qualities that you don't seem to value.  he's also a very good passing big man, his D has improved and he's a solid finisher around the basket -- probably best big man on the team in that regard.   Those are all skills that are valued around the league.

I would bet that GMs are aware that he lacks athletic ability.   That being said they are also likely aware that he can play in the NBA given his body of work despite limitations in that area.    But is he a guy you build a team around?   I would wager no.   He requires someone who can protect the rim behind him on D.  He is rarely going to out run his man.

agreed, he's not a building block but based on his body of work, he can be a starter on a decent team that controls the boards and is most effective playing close to the basket on both ends.  What team couldn't use a rim-protecting center?

We know that 20 or so teams passed on his talents in the draft- not a ringing endorsement

wrong, they passed on him due to concerns about his back -- not his talent.  Based on talent he'd have been in the top 10 easily if not top 5 as some draft sites stated at the time of that draft.  Take a look at the players selected ahead of him that year and there's no way he doesn't jump way up in a redraft.

I would bet that they are aware that he has battled his weight - 300 lbs for a man his size is not a good thing

He's listed as 260 on the C's site, not 300.  What proof do you have of this statement?  your oft-stated hatred for/trashing of people who aren't in what you consider to be top shape lessens your statements/arguments on the matter.  I'm sure you don't agree and I've seen your responses to similar comments but you come off as someone who'd treat anyone with weight/conditioning issues as crap in any part of your life not just evaluating athletes.  If you don't believe that's really how you are or act, you may want to revisit your previous commentary in other threads.

I would bet that they are aware that he has had conditioning issues - this is evident several seasons of this career.   I think he has improved some of his career but it is a contract year

he's better this year.  sure, it's a contract year and a lot of players improve for just that reason.  No one will know if he's pulling a Blount to just get a good deal and then will slack off or if he's making the effort to continue improving.  He'll never look like Mr. Universe but if he continues to improve his game, I'm happy with keeping him for reasonable money.

I would bet that they are aware of his penchant for getting injured -   He has played in 208 out of a possible 277 regular season games.   That means that he misses 25% of the games he could have played.   I think his weight and conditioning play a role in this also his bad back.   This is almost as low as his 3 P shooting percentage.

Penchant?  He had his back issues addressed his rookie season.  that was 37 games when he was a rookie still trying to earn time.
sophomore season, played 74 games.  last season, played 58.  sure, missed 24.  this year, he's played 30 out of 31.  I think 'penchant' is a bit over the top. 

Is he chopped liver, but it is a myth that people think he is a borderline all star outside of Boston.   I live in Ohio and they love the guy due to the OSU play but you will not hear the CAVs guys when they broadcast the games talk about how dangerous he is outside of rebounding.

He's not chopped liver.  on most nights, he's our best big man.  definitely our best rebounder.  He's the player on the roster that I think could actually start on a decent team (surrounded by 3 better starters at least) because he's that solid at rebounding, passing, scoring down low and other skills.  I agree that ideally we'd have a better option at center and PF so Sully could come off the bench -- as I do with every other position on this team. 
As for other teams' announcers, when I've had to listen to their broadcasts, the general opinion I come away with is that no one really knows much about the Celtics because we haven't had a marquee player here since Rondo was traded.  Everyone's just a name on a jersey they announce after a play is made.  Your statement doesn't mean a whole lot when no one on the team is being proclaimed as 'dangerous'.

[Jvalin]

I just don't really think he's what this team is missing.

Isn’t rim protection among the things this team is missing? What about pick n’ roll defense? We lost the game against the Hawks exactly because of our inability to guard the pick n roll.

Biz is exactly what this team is missing.

(Of course our biggest need is a go-to scorer but there aren’t many go-to scorers who play at the 5 in today’s NBA.)

[BudweiserCeltic]

I just don't really think he's what this team is missing.

Isn’t rim protection among the things this team is missing? What about pick n’ roll defense? We lost the game against the Hawks exactly because of our inability to guard the pick n roll.

Biz is exactly what this team is missing.

(Of course our biggest need is a go-to scorer but there aren’t many go-to scorers who play at the 5 in today’s NBA. Perhaps the only exception is Boogie.)

We lost the game against the Hawks because Stevens went small against Horford and Millsap, Millsap was eating up Crowder/Jerebko in the pick-and-roll and having Thomas guarding the PG in those situations didn't help matters. Our center was of no help because he was guarding Horford on the strong side who was stretching the floor (and guarding the 3-point line was a focus coming into the game), and there was little weak-side help.

I'm not sure that under those circumstances having a center that is a good pick-and-roll defender would've helped all that much. The main problem was scheme wise, not really personnel wise other than the strategy of going small against the Horford-Millsap combo.

[Rosco917]

I like the defense, and rim protection that Biyonbo brings to the game. The problem is he doesn't draw anyone away from the basket. With the style of ball the C's play that could be a problem at times.

[Jvalin]

We lost the game against the Hawks because Stevens went small against Horford and Millsap, Millsap was eating up Crowder/Jerebko in the pick-and-roll and having Thomas guarding the PG in those situations didn't help matters. Our center was of no help because he was guarding Horford on the strong side who was stretching the floor (and guarding the 3-point line was a focus coming into the game), and there was little weak-side help.

I'm not sure that under those circumstances having a center that is a good pick-and-roll defender would've helped all that much. The main problem was scheme wise, not really personnel wise other than the strategy of going small against the Horford-Millsap combo.

So with Bradley defending Schroder and a frontcourt of Crowder, Amir, Biz we wouldn’t have been able to handle the Hawks pick n' roll strategy in the 4th quarter?  I think it’s pretty much the opposite of what you are suggesting. Our strategy didn’t work, because Sully/Kelly have no lateral quicks. Put Biz in there instead of them and the problem is solved.

Jerebko played some minutes at the 4 but the real problem for us was when we had Kelly/Sully on the court.

I like the defense, and rim protection that Biyonbo brings to the game. The problem is he doesn't draw anyone away from the basket. With the style of ball the C's play that could be a problem at times.

If Biz could do all of those things
1) he would be untouchable
2) he wouldn’t be paid (roughly) 3 million a year

You can't have it both ways. He is a defensive specialist, that's what you want him for. 

[Smitty77]

We lost the game against the Hawks because Stevens went small against Horford and Millsap, Millsap was eating up Crowder/Jerebko in the pick-and-roll and having Thomas guarding the PG in those situations didn't help matters. Our center was of no help because he was guarding Horford on the strong side who was stretching the floor (and guarding the 3-point line was a focus coming into the game), and there was little weak-side help.

I'm not sure that under those circumstances having a center that is a good pick-and-roll defender would've helped all that much. The main problem was scheme wise, not really personnel wise other than the strategy of going small against the Horford-Millsap combo.

So with Bradley defending Schroder and a frontcourt of Crowder, Amir, Biz we wouldn’t have been able to handle the Hawks pick n' roll strategy in the 4th quarter?  I think it’s pretty much the opposite of what you are suggesting. Our strategy didn’t work, because Sully/Kelly have no lateral quicks. Put Biz in there instead of them and the problem is solved.

Jerebko played some minutes at the 4 but the real problem for us was when we had Kelly/Sully on the court.

I like the defense, and rim protection that Biyonbo brings to the game. The problem is he doesn't draw anyone away from the basket. With the style of ball the C's play that could be a problem at times.

If Biz could do all of those things
1) he would be untouchable
2) he wouldn’t be paid (roughly) 3 million a year

You can't have it both ways. He is a defensive specialist, that's what you want him for.

I can ASSURE you that Biz will opt out of his contract for next year and will make in the neighborhood of 6-9 million starting!!! (and he will be WORTH it!!!)

Smitty77

[BudweiserCeltic]

We lost the game against the Hawks because Stevens went small against Horford and Millsap, Millsap was eating up Crowder/Jerebko in the pick-and-roll and having Thomas guarding the PG in those situations didn't help matters. Our center was of no help because he was guarding Horford on the strong side who was stretching the floor (and guarding the 3-point line was a focus coming into the game), and there was little weak-side help.

I'm not sure that under those circumstances having a center that is a good pick-and-roll defender would've helped all that much. The main problem was scheme wise, not really personnel wise other than the strategy of going small against the Horford-Millsap combo.

So with Bradley defending Schroder and a frontcourt of Crowder, Amir, Biz we wouldn’t have been able to handle the Hawks pick n' roll strategy in the 4th quarter?  I think it’s pretty much the opposite of what you are suggesting. Our strategy didn’t work, because Sully/Kelly have no lateral quicks. Put Biz in there instead of them and the problem is solved.

Jerebko played some minutes at the 4 but the real problem for us was when we had Kelly/Sully on the court.

Again, what use is having lateral quickness when your job is to guard the other big who's camping on the 3-point line of the strong side. And Bradley wasn't guarding the PG, so why are you bringing him into this? It was Thomas. Also, I'll point out what you're suggesting is a big unit, while I specifically mentioned in my post that going small was part of the problem. Millsap was able to bully Crowder/Jerebko.

The problem then came with Crowder/Jerebko blitzing instead of giving some cushion. Millsap kept getting a straight line to the basket, and there's little you can do with that.

The help had to come from the weakside, not the strong side. That's what rotation would dictate, and we actually did that, usually with the great Turner. So the problem wasn't whomever was at the center position, but the strategy of those involved in the pick-and-roll and that who needed to rotate from the weakside.

All of this with Millsap who's a very mobile big strong guy who's hard to stop as it is. And we kept repeating the same defensive philosophy over and over.

So not sure how much Biyombo would've helped under those circumstances if his assignment was to guard Horford camped out in the perimeter.

When you mention Kelly/Sully... are you referring them as a pair of bigs or one of them on the floor? Because fact is they didn't share the floor in the 4th quarter at all. Jerebko didn't play the 4 occasionally in the 4th, he played just about every minutes of it he was on the floor until Crowder came back on the floor. So we were always small.

And I'll just say I don't like Sullinger in small ball units, it's not that I'm excusing Sullinger or Kelly when they need to protect the rim in the pick and roll. But the thing is this wasn't like some dude making moves on them that they couldn't keep up with (like what happened with the Knicks and Williams in the pick-and-roll). They simply were assigned to guard a player who was away from the basket, so their role on those very moment weren't to protect the basket... that responsibility befell to whomever was on the weakside or Stevens should've instructed these players to play closer to the basket and give some more room to Horford instead of guarding him as close.

So if you wanted to make a case for this, I think there's more useful and relevant evidence in the Knicks game (yet once I again I'll point out that we went small once again) than in the Hawks game, and it all had to do with the opposing position who was stretching the floor. In the Atlanta case, it was their center.

[Jvalin]

Here are the full highlights of the game against the Hawks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUHce6QTmK4

5:44
Schroder to Horford --> Kelly basically just claps his hands in the air.

6:13
Millsap takes advantage of the mismatch against Turner, Kelly can't protect the paint

6:43
Sully can’t run the floor. We basically play 4 vs 5

7:07
pick n roll play (Schroder - Millsap). JJ isn’t quick enough to stay in front of Millsap.

7:14
pick n roll play (Schroder - Millsap). Crowder is on Millsap. Sully is on Horford who is stretching the floor.

7:25
pick n roll play (Schroder - Millsap). Crowder gets lost in the pick --> High low (Millsap – Bazemore). Again, as you said Sully is on Horford, Crowder plays the 4

7:42
Amir is on Horford, JJ plays the 4. Amir bumps into the screener, Horford hits the open 3

Basically it’s the same thing again and again. Pick n roll play after pick n roll play pretty much the whole 4th quarter.

Going small was not part of the problem, it was the only way for us to avoid total embarrassment. Sully and Kelly are probably 2 of the worst pick n roll defenders in the league, certainly worse than JJ and Crowder. To put it another way, CBS did everything he could with the players he had available, he just didn’t have the right guys to confront Horford and Millsap. If we had a guy like Biz, we wouldn’t have to put Crowder on Millsap. Amir on Millsap and Biz on Horford would work just fine.

The great thing about Biz is that he protects the paint without actually being that tall. He is just 6' 8.31" w/o shoes but he has a ridiculous 7' 6.16" wingspan and a 9' 3.42" standing reach! His below average height helps him excel in pick n’ roll defense, because he is really mobile compared to other centers. So if you think about it, a line up of Crowder, Amir and Biz isn’t that big after all, but at the same time it’s capable of shutting down opposition no matter the offensive scheme.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Here are the full highlights of the game against the Hawks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUHce6QTmK4

5:44
Schroder to Horford --> Kelly basically just claps his hands in the air.

6:13
Millsap takes advantage of the mismatch against Turner, Kelly can't protect the paint

6:43
Sully can’t run the floor. We basically play 4 vs 5

7:07
pick n roll play (Schroder - Millsap). JJ isn’t quick enough to stay in front of Millsap.

7:14
pick n roll play (Schroder - Millsap). Crowder is on Millsap. Sully is on Horford who is stretching the floor.

7:25
pick n roll play (Schroder - Millsap). Crowder gets lost in the pick --> High low (Millsap – Bazemore). Again, as you said Sully is on Horford, Crowder plays the 4

7:42
Amir is on Horford, JJ plays the 4. Amir bumps into the screener, Horford hits the open 3

Basically it’s the same thing again and again. Pick n roll play after pick n roll play pretty much the whole 4th quarter.

Going small was not part of the problem, it was the only way for us to avoid total embarrassment. Sully and Kelly are probably 2 of the worst pick n roll defenders in the league, certainly worse than JJ and Crowder. To put it another way, CBS did everything he could with the players he had available, he just didn’t have the right guys to confront Horford and Millsap. If we had a guy like Biz, we wouldn’t have to put Crowder on Millsap. Amir on Millsap and Biz on Horford would work just fine.

The great thing with Biz is that he protects the paint without actually being that tall. He is just 6' 8.31" w/o shoes but he has a ridiculous 7' 6.16" wingspan and a 9' 3.42" standing reach! His below average height helps him excel in pick n’ roll defense, because he is really mobile compared to other centers. So if you think about it, a line up of Crowder, Amir and Biz isn’t that big after all, but at the same time it’s capable of shutting down opposition no matter the offensive scheme.

I'm not able to see the video right now, but going by your observations it seems you're confirming all I've said only disagreeing with the conclusion.

I mean you've got Jerebko not guarding Millsap properly. You have Crowder getting lost in picks. You have Sully guarding Horford in the perimeter.

So not sure what your contention is if you allow for all that to be true. Regardless of the opinion of whether Kelly or Sullinger are the two worst pick-and-roll defenders in the game, that wasn't the issue in the Hawks game as your own observations have demonstrated.

And then you say that with Biz on the team we could've simply put Amir on Millsap? What stopped Stevens from putting Amir on Millsap in the first place while Sully and Kelly were on the floor. Sorry, but your logic is not making any sense here, and why would you even suggest that as the fix if you contend that small ball wasn't part of the problem? Your argument is making no sense to me.

[Jvalin]

All I am saying is that going small was the appropriate response. If we hadn’t gone small (like you suggested) the result would have been embarrassing because Sully and Kelly are 2 of the worst pick n roll defenders in the league. Whenever we had one of them in the court, our defense was even worse. The sad thing is that even when we did go small, Atlanta kept running the same play again and again and we could do nothing about it. That’s why we need a guy like Biz who excels in defending the pick n roll. With him in the line up we wouldn’t have faced the same problems.

What stopped Stevens from putting Amir on Millsap in the first place while Sully and Kelly were on the floor.

Well, Horford and Millsap are both really good pick n roll players. It’s not like Millsap was the only threat in the paint that night and that’s why we couldn’t guard them in the first place. Amir is our only mobile big (we have Mickey as well but he is in Maine) and CBS had to make a choice between sending him to guard either Millsap or Horford. I guess he chose to send him exclusively on Horford probably because Crowder and JJ would be better suited against Millsap. In any case it seems he had made his mind that neither Sully nor Kelly were good enough for the job in hand because they both lack the lateral quicks to defend the pick n roll.

[BudweiserCeltic]

All I am saying is that going small was the appropriate response. If we hadn’t gone small (like you suggested) the result would have been embarrassing because Sully and Kelly are 2 of the worst pick n roll defenders in the league. Whenever we had one of them in the court, our defense was even worse. The sad thing is that even when we did go small, Atlanta kept running the same play again and again and we could do nothing about it. That’s why we need a guy like Biz who excels in defending the pick n roll. With him in the line up we wouldn’t have faced the same problems.

What stopped Stevens from putting Amir on Millsap in the first place while Sully and Kelly were on the floor.

Well, Horford and Millsap are both really good pick n roll players. It’s not like Millsap was the only threat in the paint that night and that’s why we couldn’t guard them in the first place. Amir is our only mobile big (we have Mickey as well but he is in Maine) and CBS had to make a choice between sending him to guard either Millsap or Horford. I guess he chose to send him on Horford probably because Crowder and JJ would be better suited against Millsap. In any case it seems he had made his mind that neither Sully nor Kelly were good enough for the job in hand because they both lack the lateral quicks to defend the pick n roll.

Interesting... Atlanta scored 19 points in the 1st quarter (Sully/Amir and Olynyk/Amir through most of it), 23 in the second, 29 in 3rd (with Lee on the floor through most of it), and 38 points in the 4th. And yet your take on this is that when either Sully or Kelly was on the floor our defense was even worse? Come on.

But you keep pointing out at the problems of Kelly/Sully in the pick and roll when your own observations showed that all those pick and roll problems came from poor defense from Jerebko/Crowder.

You're putting a lot of blame on 2 players that by your own observation were not at fault in those pick-and-roll plays.

[Jvalin]

Interesting... Atlanta scored 19 points in the 1st quarter (Sully/Amir and Olynyk/Amir through most of it), 23 in the second, 29 in 3rd (with Lee on the floor through most of it), and 38 points in the 4th. And yet your take on this is that when either Sully or Kelly was on the floor our defense was even worse? Come on.

That’s because for some reason the Hawks didn’t run the P&R play that often up until the 4th quarter. Check out the full highlights video I posted. From all the points we conceded in the first 3 quarters, the Hawks run the P&R play just 3 times.

0:59
P&R play (Teague – Horford). Sully is on Horford

3:03
P&R play (Schroder – Horford). Sully is on Horford

3:13
P&R play (Teague – Horford). Sully is on Horford

But you keep pointing out at the problems of Kelly/Sully in the pick and roll when your own observations showed that all those pick and roll problems came from poor defense from Jerebko/Crowder.

I keep pointing out that the only player on the current roster who can guard the P&R is Amir (again, Mickey is in Maine). In fact Kelly and Sully are so bad at defending the P&R that CBS preferred to play Crowder and JJ ahead of them at the PF position in that 4th quarter.

You're putting a lot of blame on 2 players that by your own observation were not at fault in those pick-and-roll plays.

They were not at fault simply because they weren’t good enough to be in the game at that particular moment therefore they were benched.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Interesting... Atlanta scored 19 points in the 1st quarter (Sully/Amir and Olynyk/Amir through most of it), 23 in the second, 29 in 3rd (with Lee on the floor through most of it), and 38 points in the 4th. And yet your take on this is that when either Sully or Kelly was on the floor our defense was even worse? Come on.

That’s because for some reason the Hawks didn’t run the P&R play that often up until the 4th quarter. Check out the full highlights video I posted. From all the points we conceded in the first 3 quarters, the Hawks run the P&R play just 3 times.

0:59
P&R play (Teague – Horford). Sully is on Horford

3:03
P&R play (Schroder – Horford). Sully is on Horford

3:13
P&R play (Teague – Horford). Sully is on Horford

0:59 - Thomas didn't work through the pick, Sullinger picked up the ball-handler to make up for it, Amir couldn't handle Horford by himself and the player he was guarding, with Bradley camping in the 3-point line because he was tasked with shadowing his player.


3:03 - Sullinger once again stopping penetration on a switch, as its his assignment because once again Thomas was left in the dust. Thomas was out of position instead of picking up the roller and cutting on passing angles. Nothing to do with Sullinger. He did his job properly. (I'll also point out we were small in this possession)

3:13 - Once again poor defense by Thomas which forced Sullinger once again to stop penetration. Amir faked he was going to pick-up the roller instead letting him go by so he could go and guard Millsap in the perimeter, leading to the Horford layup.

I think it's pretty evident what the problem through all of this was... poor defense by Thomas. The only posession I could point to where Biyombo might've been more helpful would've been in the 3:13 one, but even then, I don't see it.

All this to say that the Center position, as it regarded the assignments they had for themselves in those pick-and-roll plays weren't the culprit of what allowed the Hawks to score.

But you keep pointing out at the problems of Kelly/Sully in the pick and roll when your own observations showed that all those pick and roll problems came from poor defense from Jerebko/Crowder.

I keep pointing out that the only player on the current roster who can guard the P&R is Amir (again, Mickey is in Maine). In fact Kelly and Sully are so bad at defending the P&R that CBS preferred to play Crowder and JJ ahead of them at the PF position in that 4th quarter.

Yet Amir was sitting through all the 2nd half since the 8 or so minute mark in the 3rd quarter. Sullinger didn't play much in the 4th because he did play almost all of the 3rd. A very good 3rd I may add even when paired with David Lee.

What you mean instead is that Stevens elected to go with Crowder and JJ ahead of Amir. Amir only played towards the end after Olynyk and Sullinger had played most of the 4th (Sullinger had his stint halfway through then Stevens saw we were far behind and subbed in all his perimeter shooters to the game with 1.5 minutes or so to go in the game) and only then was Amir inserted, some fresh legs who hadn't played most of the 2nd half just for some defensive possessions. Olynyk, who was as you point out part of the units that had trouble with the pick-and-roll subbed in for Sullinger when we were on offense, then Stevens elected to go with Amir.

Nothing wrong with that. But as you well point out in another observation, the pick-and-roll defense still suffered with that Horford 3-pointer... demonstrating how much of a threat it was in reality and why it needed to be guarded by whomever was playing center.

You're putting a lot of blame on 2 players that by your own observation were not at fault in those pick-and-roll plays.

They were not at fault simply because they weren’t good enough to be in the game at that particular moment therefore they were benched.

They were benched when? That's where you're losing me also. They weren't benched at all. If anyone you can consider that got benched in that game was your pick-and-roll champion Amir who didn't get off the bench until the game was almost over in the 2nd half.

And I'll add, I'm not arguing whether Sullinger or Olynyk are good pick-and-roll defenders or not, but in my opinion you're completely mischaracterizing what occurred in that Hawks game and that's my only issue in all of this.