Author Topic: Happy trails to Hinkie's Power.  (Read 104643 times)

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Re: Happy trails to Hinkie's Power.
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2015, 09:29:42 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Look I get that it's not a popular opinion around here.   If I was GM candidate looking for a job, I'd probably much rather have Philly's situation than Boston's.    Boston has some solid players.  Boston is clearly a better team right now.    That said, those type of players are easier to come by and I genuinely believe it would be easier to turn Philly into a contender in the next few years than Boston.   

If Philly is loaded with talent next year and starts winning some games, nobody will care about these past two years.   I see no reason to believe they can't be on a par with a team like Orlando as soon as next season.  Their GM could fail, though.

Mmm....

Didn't you just basically say (in not so many words) that the best move for the 76ers right now is to trade everybody?

Do you realise that the 76ers just went through a 4 or 5 year long rebulid, and you are basically saying that (based on where they have come to) their best option right now is to scrap everything and rebuild again?

lol

That is just downright hilarious, and it's hilarious because at the end of the day you are probably right.  The team is so horrible (and it's rebulid effort has been such a embarrassingly epic fail) that their best bet probably really is to give up, scrap it, and rebuild all over again.   

In fact this whole rebuilt has probably been one of the top few most epic fails in basketball team management history.

Really the only promising piece on this team right now is Okafor, and even he doesn't look all that special.  He basically looks like Brook Lopez 2.0, while Noah looks like Tyson Chandler 2.0 - and if those are the two best things you have after some 3-4 years of redefining the term "tanking", then you've got to be pretty disappointed.

If there is one single valuable thing that Hinkie has achieved over this run, it's finally shutting up all of the pro-tankers out there.  This epic fail of a tank-xperiment should give anti-tank people enough to give ammunition to defeat the Pro-Tankers for decades on end.  Any time a Pro-tank thread pops up, all you need to say is one work - "hinkie" - and that one word will be enough to silence the thread indefinitely lol
« Last Edit: December 07, 2015, 09:36:34 PM by crimson_stallion »

Re: Happy trails to Hinkie's Power.
« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2015, 09:32:45 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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NBA .....should step in .....to,save face ......this looks bad on a professional league ..supposedly professional anyway.

Re: Happy trails to Hinkie's Power.
« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2015, 09:49:55 PM »

Offline jpotter33

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http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/sixers/2015/12/07/jerry-colangelo-hire-change-rebuilding-plan-sam-hinkie-76ers/76954620/

Apparently, Silver was a driving force behind this. Looks like the league seems to have had enough of this ridiculousness.
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Re: Happy trails to Hinkie's Power.
« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2015, 09:50:48 PM »

Offline KG Living Legend

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 Larbrd. What do you think Danny would give up for Either Noel or Okafor.

Re: Happy trails to Hinkie's Power.
« Reply #34 on: December 07, 2015, 10:00:02 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/sixers/2015/12/07/jerry-colangelo-hire-change-rebuilding-plan-sam-hinkie-76ers/76954620/

Apparently, Silver was a driving force behind this. Looks like the league seems to have had enough of this ridiculousness.

My favorite parts, especially those in bold...

Quote
"This season has not been easy for us and even more difficult than we anticipated," Harris said. "Our situation needed a review to make our situation better."

While Harris said he believes in the plan — to build sustainable success — it’s an admission the plan isn’t going the way the 76ers had hoped and change is necessary.

The 76ers were 19-63 in 2013-14, 18-64 in 2014-15 and 1-20 this season going into Monday's game against the San Antonio Spurs, and those draft picks haven’t generated the player Philadelphia believes is a game-changer.

Re: Happy trails to Hinkie's Power.
« Reply #35 on: December 07, 2015, 10:18:08 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Are you seriously telling me it's inconceivable that the Suns would trade Brandon Knight (making 13.5 mil for the next 5 years) for Nerlens Noel (making 3.5 mil)?   Suns get an fantastic defensive center, a 10 mil trade exception...   I suppose Philly can toss in one of their other 2016 1sts (from the Heat or Thunder) if absolutely necessary.   

Yes, it is inconceivable.

Knight is putting up 21/5/4 for the Suns - he is playing All-Star basketball, he's locked up long term, and he's only 24 years old.

Trading him for a glorified role player who is also statistically the worst offensive big man in the entire NBA (Offensive RPM of -6.28, ranks dead last among a combined 167 PF's and C's) would be absolutely ludicrous.

His defense has been solid (Defensive RPM of +1.5, 70th our of 167 PF's and C's) but doesn't even come close to compensating for the horribly destructive impact he has on offense.


The Magic have a log-jam at SF.  They smartly locked up restricted free agent Tobias Harris instead of letting him walk for nothing.  But now they are paying Tobias Harris 16 million a year despite the fact that Aaron Gordon and Mario Hezonja are probably their future at that position.   Nikola Vucevic is a nice center, but he's not a franchise big.  Are you SERIOUSLY telling me that the Magic wouldn't move Tobias Harris (16 mil per year for the next 4 years) for Jahlil Okafor  (4.5 mil for the next 4 years) while picking up a 12 mil trade exception in the process?   Come on... you can't be serious.   Orlando does that trade immediately.

Why on earth would Orlando do this when they already have Vucevic, who is every bit as good as Okafor right now? 

The two are putting up identical offensive numbers Per 36, but Vucevic is a far superior rebounder (12 REB Per 36 for his career) and far more efficient on offense (51% FG for his career).

Why would that trade away Tobias Harris just to acquire a younger version of a player they already have?

What kind of mess would this cause with their roster?  They would need to start Gordon (who is not yet good enough to be an NBA starter) to replace Harris. Then they would need to bring either Vucevic or Okafor off the bench, which would be a absolute waste of talent.

Completely pointless trade that the 76ers WISH would happen, but in reality unlikely that it ever would.   

Besides a front line of Harris and Noel would be pretty mediocre...


So then, are you SERIOUSLY telling me that it's unfathomable that Philly could march out a lineup of like... PG - Knight, SG - Jaylen Brown (via Laker pick), SF - Tobias Harris, PF - Ben Simmons (via their own pick) and C - Joel Embiid (miraculously healthy) with a potent bench of youth (Saric?  Stauskas? Wroten? etc) and signed vets?   Look, that's unlikely, but it's not unthinkable.    My guess is, Philly can get better offers for Okafor and Noel than the two I just pulled out of my butt.   

As you said, the above scenario is unlikely.

1) The two trades make no sense for the opposite teams, and there is about a 95% chance neither of them would ever happen.

2) I think Boston has about as much chance of Jared Sullinger suddenly breaking out and become an All-Star, as the Sixers have of Embiid ever being healthy enough to realise his potential.  Even if he can play again, he'll likely be limited by injuries for the rest of his career - think, Brook Lopez / Andrew Bynum. 

3) The worst team in the NBA rarely gets the #1 pick, meaning Boston's Brooklyn pick (currently tied for 3rd worst record in the league) in practical terms is about as likely to get the #1 pick as Philly is.

4) I very, very seriously doubt Philly can get a player as good as Knight in return for Okafor - let alone better. I think they could maybe get Rudy Gay or Al Horford, but that's pushing it.  Tobias Harris and a mid-1st or or Vucevic and a mid-1st is probably about the best I can see Philly getting back for Okafor, to be honest.

The point is, they'll have unlimited options.  It's a dream come true for a competent GM.  They have assets on top of assets on top of assets.   It wouldnt' be hard to turn that team around.  Trade everyone, roll out a whole new lineup next year... they win a few games and nobody will give a crap about their struggles.  It's not like people look at the Los Angeles Clippers post Blake Griffin and talk about how they are the most hopeless team in the league.   It just takes one of those gambles to work out.

Actually no, they don't have unlimited options.

They have only two players who have anything resembling trade value - but if they trade any those two players away, then any deal they get back is pretty much going to be a sideways step.  Nobody is trading an established All-Star for Nerlens Noel, and nobody is trading an established superstar for Jahlil Okafor.     

They have no hand in free agency, since no free agent with the slightest ounce of self respect will even consider signing with that joke of a team.

To be honest, the only assets they have with any significant trade value are Okafor and their own upcoming 1st round pick.  If they traded Okafor AND their own 2016 1st rounder (unprotected) then they could probably bring back a superstar in that deal.  Demarcus Cousins is the first name that comes to mind.  They'd never do it though, because good luck keeping him there for more than 6 months.

This is the problem - even if the Sixers COULD bring a star back in a trade, no star on earth would be willing to get traded there.  Any star who gets traded there against their will, is going to be demanding a trade within 6 months.

You cannot underestimate the importance of things like winning, team chemistry, team morale.  NOBODY wants to play for the Sixers.  Hell, even Okafor looked frustrated when he heard the Sixers chose him in the draft.  Good luck getting a vet to come there willingly.

To be honest, you are dramatically overrating Okafor right now, talking about him like he has the potential to be the next big superstar in the mould of Garnett / Duncan / Davis / Cousins / Griffin. 

He doens't. 

He's averaging around 18/7, he's shooting 46% from the field, and his defense has been horrendous.  He's looking like a young Brook Lopez / Al Jefferson at best, and neither of those two guys has ever really been a clear cut superstar.

If Philly had Karl-Anthony Towns, then different story, he has that type of potential.  But the Wolves got Towns, and the Sixers got Okafor.  Their tanking efforts failed them - Karma's flipped those lottery balls as it's own little way of biting Hinkie on the ass for trying to cheat his way to NBA success.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2015, 10:28:00 PM by crimson_stallion »

Re: Happy trails to Hinkie's Power.
« Reply #36 on: December 07, 2015, 10:27:02 PM »

Offline Emmette Bryant

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Quote
"This season has not been easy for us and even more difficult than we anticipated," Harris said. "Our situation needed a review to make our situation better."

While Harris said he believes in the plan — to build sustainable success — it’s an admission the plan isn’t going the way the 76ers had hoped and change is necessary.

The 76ers were 19-63 in 2013-14, 18-64 in 2014-15 and 1-20 this season going into Monday's game against the San Antonio Spurs, and those draft picks haven’t generated the player Philadelphia believes is a game-changer.
[/quote]

All of that tanking and they still haven't tanked as well as Minnesota.

Re: Happy trails to Hinkie's Power.
« Reply #37 on: December 07, 2015, 10:45:35 PM »

Offline KG Living Legend

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 Or Cleveland.

Re: Happy trails to Hinkie's Power.
« Reply #38 on: December 07, 2015, 10:57:11 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Quote
"This season has not been easy for us and even more difficult than we anticipated," Harris said. "Our situation needed a review to make our situation better."

While Harris said he believes in the plan — to build sustainable success — it’s an admission the plan isn’t going the way the 76ers had hoped and change is necessary.

The 76ers were 19-63 in 2013-14, 18-64 in 2014-15 and 1-20 this season going into Monday's game against the San Antonio Spurs, and those draft picks haven’t generated the player Philadelphia believes is a game-changer.


All of that tanking and they still haven't tanked as well as Minnesota.
Not exactly true.

You tank to maximize your chances at a star.     Sota traded a superstar for a superstar prospect.    Then they won the draft.   Philly has tanked... and so far has made no effort to actually put a competitive team out there.  But the fruits of their tanking efforts are still in the mix as assets.

Re: Happy trails to Hinkie's Power.
« Reply #39 on: December 07, 2015, 10:59:46 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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 Larbrd. What do you think Danny would give up for Either Noel or Okafor.

Probably 8 draft picks for either... based on what we were willing to give up for Winslow.

Re: Happy trails to Hinkie's Power.
« Reply #40 on: December 07, 2015, 11:02:47 PM »

Offline KG Living Legend

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 Those Winslow rumors, wow. Noel no way he gives up that much especially because he's destin for Boston, and has a three foot scoring range.

 Okafor I do think he would sell about half the farm, maybe throw in Wycs farm.

Re: Happy trails to Hinkie's Power.
« Reply #41 on: December 07, 2015, 11:12:38 PM »

Offline BDeCosta26

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I think Ainge would give up a fair amount for Okafor. MAYBE even the Brooklyn pick of there wasn't much else involved.


LarBird, I have to give you credit for being willing to die on the sword. You've defended Hinkie and the Sixers "plan" and have been trumpeting the immense value of their prospects for years, and even as it's coming to a crashing, poetic end that involves the league stepping in and handing them a competent GM to save face, your willing to defend the hidden brilliance of Hinkie's plan. Your a man who sticks to his convictions brotha, and I can respect that.

Re: Happy trails to Hinkie's Power.
« Reply #42 on: December 07, 2015, 11:13:56 PM »

Offline obnoxiousmime

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Hinkie has made some mistakes but the decision to tank wasn't one of them. Teams tank for multiple seasons all the time, they just don't admit it in such a public manner. Why don't they get criticized? The young up-and-coming teams like Minnesota, Utah, Orlando, and Milwaukee are stocked with players who were lottery picks. You have to be bad for awhile to get all those picks.

Tanking was the right move, but some of the mistakes Hinkie has made around the initial strategy have been bad:

1) Being too blatant with the tanking

Early on they were too public with their plan (remember the owner's quote about being happy with some loss?). The unspoken rule is you don't admit you're tanking because it looks bad with the fans, the league, and the players on your team. They attracted a lot of negative publicity early on and they haven't been able to escape it.

2) Not signing young vets/old vets

Instead of scraping the true bottom of the barrel, Hinkie could have signed some mid-range vets to stabilize the roster and still not hurt the tanking effort.

3) Being cold to agents and other GMs

Hinkie hasn't had the best relationship with other front offices and agents. That hurts his ability to make deals because everybody is rooting for him to fail. Though, Hinkie has still been ripping off teams as recently as last offseason with the Stauskus deal.

4) Not taking Porzingis

This is a biggie. The difference between a star and a fake star is large. Sure, Okafor isn't bad but Porzingis is on another level. He would have been the star they've been looking for and erased all the negative feelings this season.

5) Probably not having accurate medicals on Embiid

Everybody was fine with the Embiid pick when it happened. Let's face it, it wasn't a great draft in terms of star talent. Sure, would it be nice to have Smart, Gordon, or even Exum (maybe he doesn't get injured in this hypothetical)? Yes, but they're not really the game-changers that Embiid could be. This is still to be continued. Besides, Gordon, Exum, and Smart have not exactly proven themselves to be ironmen so far in their careers. In fact, Parker and Randle have had bad injuries already and Vonleh and Stauskus have already been dealt from their original teams! It could just be the case that a lot of the players from that draft will not

If Hinkie does get fired before the tank job is done, I think the primary reason will be not taking Porzingis. The owners supported him when he formulated this plan because the whole point was to get a superstar. The plan wasn't flawed but you still have to draft correctly for it to work. The other reasons will be because he underestimated the value of PR and he hurt the value of the Sixers franchise in the eyes of the league and fans. The owners may decide that the best way to erase the negative publicity is to fire Hinkie, even if they know that Hinkie has actually done a good job at collecting assets. In fact, it seems like the Colangelo hire is already step 1 towards that possibility. Or, they could just demote Hinkie and let Colangelo be the public face of the front office.



Re: Happy trails to Hinkie's Power.
« Reply #43 on: December 07, 2015, 11:15:51 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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I think Ainge would give up a fair amount for Okafor. MAYBE even the Brooklyn pick of there wasn't much else involved.


LarBird, I have to give you credit for being willing to die on the sword. You've defended Hinkie and the Sixers "plan" and have been trumpeting the immense value of their prospects for years, and even as it's coming to a crashing, poetic end that involves the league stepping in and handing them a competent GM to save face, your willing to defend the hidden brilliance of Hinkie's plan. Your a man who sticks to his convictions brotha, and I can respect that.

Wait... is it coming to an end?  Did I miss something?  Is the league stripping them away of their #1 projected pick, their potential top 4 pick from the Lakers, Dario Saric's rights, Nerlens Noel, Okafor, Embiid and the several other 1st rounders/assets they have?  Are they forbidden from using their 60 million in cap space this summer?

I'm happy to be the lone voice of reason in regards to Philly.  I'm not wrong.  That team is stacked with assets.   It wouldnt' be hard to turn it into a competent team.  You people can call me delusional all you want.  It doesn't make me any less right. 

And no, I don't buy the idea that the rest of the league would lose interest in two of the best prospects in the NBA simply because they spent 12-24 months wearing Philly jerseys.   Noel and Okafor are big time prospects.  Our best asset is Marcus Smart.  One of those Philly assets clearly more valuable than Smart... the other arguably is more valuable as well.  Is what it is.    And their best pick is more valuable than our Brooklyn pick.   Plus they have a handful of other young assets that hold value in the league.  To suggest that this is "over" is to admit not understanding the situation.

Re: Happy trails to Hinkie's Power.
« Reply #44 on: December 07, 2015, 11:40:19 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/sixers/2015/12/07/jerry-colangelo-hire-change-rebuilding-plan-sam-hinkie-76ers/76954620/

Apparently, Silver was a driving force behind this. Looks like the league seems to have had enough of this ridiculousness.

My favorite parts, especially those in bold...

Quote
"This season has not been easy for us and even more difficult than we anticipated," Harris said. "Our situation needed a review to make our situation better."

While Harris said he believes in the plan — to build sustainable success — it’s an admission the plan isn’t going the way the 76ers had hoped and change is necessary.

The 76ers were 19-63 in 2013-14, 18-64 in 2014-15 and 1-20 this season going into Monday's game against the San Antonio Spurs, and those draft picks haven’t generated the player Philadelphia believes is a game-changer.


So....does this mean they are going to stop tanking for the rest of this season?