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C's big's next year and beyond
« on: November 13, 2015, 02:15:45 PM »

Offline otherdave

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Lee    Zeller    Kelly    Sully    Amir

Who will be back next year?

Probably not Lee and his expiring contract.
One (or more) of Zeller, Kelly & Sully could be gone in a trade (I wouldn't take a chance of Boogie)
Who knows how long Amir's ankles/wheels will hold up?


I know -  let's cross our fingers for Ben Simmons, but is anyone else a little nervous going forward?
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Re: C's big's next year and beyond
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2015, 02:35:44 PM »

Offline Evantime34

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I think only Amir and Kelly. Kelly fits how the team is trying to spread the floor and I think Amir's contract will be better value than what we can get on the open market.

 I do not feel good about Sullinger staying in shape after he gets a big contract so I'd rather they trade him at the deadline. I've never thought Zeller was very good. Lee will be completely washed up by next year.
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Re: C's big's next year and beyond
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2015, 02:40:50 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Sullinger and Lee will probably be gone.  Jerebko and Amir may stay another year because the team won't have a better use for that cap space and Danny will like to keep them as salary filler for trades.

I think Zeller will ultimately re-sign on an affordable 3 or 4 year deal.  He's a solid player who shouldn't cost too much, and you can reasonably project him to be a reliable bench piece for the foreseeable future.

Olynyk might stick around as a bench facilitator and floor spreader who occasionally scores.  I could also see him getting traded.

It's really hard to predict exactly who will and will not be around a year from now.  In general, that's true.  The only guys I feel confident projecting to be here in a year are Smart and Crowder.
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Re: C's big's next year and beyond
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2015, 03:29:11 PM »

Offline Quetzalcoatl

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I sincerely can't believe Amir is only 28.  I feel like he's 40
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Re: C's big's next year and beyond
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2015, 03:36:20 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Quote from: Quetzalcoatl on November 13, 2015, 03:29:11 PM
I sincerely can't believe Amir is only 28.  I feel like he's 40

Came into the league from high school, I believe, that's why.
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Re: C's big's next year and beyond
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2015, 05:28:22 PM »

Offline Big333223

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Quote from: PhoSita on November 13, 2015, 03:36:20 PM
Quote from: Quetzalcoatl on November 13, 2015, 03:29:11 PM
I sincerely can't believe Amir is only 28.  I feel like he's 40

Came into the league from high school, I believe, that's why.
Yeah. He was so young when he came in it feels like he's been around forever.

Like everyone else has said, Lee is definitely gone. He's using his time here to audition for his next contract and it won't be coming from the Celtics.

Zeller has totally fallen out of the rotation. I know its early but it's been a pretty incredible fall given he was the starter on opening night and now basically isn't part of the rotation. Wouldn't be surprised if his time was limited, even though he's still the only traditional center on the roster. Stevens doesn't seem to care much about that.
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Re: C's big's next year and beyond
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2015, 05:30:40 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Quote from: Big333223 on November 13, 2015, 05:28:22 PM

Zeller has totally fallen out of the rotation. I know its early but it's been a pretty incredible fall given he was the starter on opening night and now basically isn't part of the rotation. Wouldn't be surprised if his time was limited, even though he's still the only traditional center on the roster. Stevens doesn't seem to care much about that.

I think Zeller has lost his spot to Lee specifically, though.  In terms of role, I think they are both offensive-minded centers.  Only room for one of them in the rotation.

If Lee leaves, I think Zeller could find there's a significant spot in the rotation for him again.  And if he doesn't play much this year, keeping him shouldn't cost a whole lot.
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Re: C's big's next year and beyond
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2015, 06:09:03 PM »

Offline MJohnnyboy

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Lee is the only one that is definitely not coming back after this season. He's a good player and I like what he's been doing, but he's a rental that really should finish his career being a 3rd big on a contender as his career dwindles down. He shouldn't be the 3rd big on a young team that's on the rise. Nothing against the C's but they aren't currently a contender. I foresee Lee being that 3rd big on a team like say the Clippers or the Rockets next year.

Johnson and Jerebko are the maybes depending on if the Celtics do decide to trade for a star. I don't see them staying past their 2nd year if the Celtics pick up their contracts just because of who else the Celtics have and what they do with their picks if they keep them.

The ones that are hard to determine are Zeller and Sullinger. Sully's played great this year so far but you have to wonder if a. Johnson and Lee are pushing him to play his best and b. He's just playing for a new contract. The Celtics leverage is that he will be a restricted FA this year and they can decide whether or not he's worth it. I want to see what Sully can show us throughout the whole season. I think we all know that Sully could a great piece going forward, but we don't know if he will be.

The difference between Zeller and Sully is that IMO, Sully has higher potential than Zeller does. Zeller is a nice player to have around. He is ideally a 3rd/4th big on a contending team, but with who they have right now, do the Celtics really need to have a guy who's ceiling is being a rotation big? Nope, we need that cornerstone big. Sullinger has the upshot of being a David West/Luis Scola type player, which is fine, but that means Sully, if he hits his potential, is a number 2 big on a team. Zeller is passable, but not great. I don't see Zeller on the team past this year.

The only guy I 100% believe will be on the team going forward is Olynyk. His inconsistency is frustrating, but he makes the Celtics better when he's on the court (highest plus/minus on the roster I believe). Plain and simple. He looks like he has improved different areas of his game and I think he is the first big we want off the bench when the Celtics return to contention. He's a good passer, an improved defender, and hopefully when he gets it together, should be a floor spacer.

The X factor is Jordan Mickey and how high the Celtics are on the kid. They gave him a rich deal for a second-rounder, and I see the guy more like a Leon Powe/Taj Gibson kind of player, which is perfect for a second-rounder if you ask me. If he turns out to be better than expected, that could affect every big's spot on this roster.
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Re: C's big's next year and beyond
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2015, 06:31:45 PM »

Offline Greyman

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I think KO is the most likely to be here and also the most likely to get good game time in a rebuilt lineup.

Amir is proving his worth though I think his place will depend a lot on who else comes in. I place Amir second most likely to be around but only slightly over Sully.

Sully is playing well and showing he has game. It may not be enough though as he seems to be only able to maintain consistency over limited game minutes. When a season takes its toll and guys have to dig and play longer, it will be interesting to see what Sully produces. I still feel the jury is out on Sully a little bit as the battle between ability/potential and attitude is ongoing.

Lee, I concur with others seems to be here for this season only. That may not be 100% though if he continues to find form and complements what Stevens and Ainge have planned or are able to do with the team.

Going on recent lineups, Zeller is the odd man out and may struggle to find enough game time to prove his value. Despite what he has done previously his stocks are down.
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Re: C's big's next year and beyond
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2015, 03:36:28 PM »

Offline otherdave

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I think if one of the bigs gets injured or Lee is traded at the deadline, we will be glad we have Zeller to fill a role.
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Re: C's big's next year and beyond
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2015, 04:05:53 PM »

Offline Jon

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Quote from: PhoSita on November 13, 2015, 05:30:40 PM
Quote from: Big333223 on November 13, 2015, 05:28:22 PM

Zeller has totally fallen out of the rotation. I know its early but it's been a pretty incredible fall given he was the starter on opening night and now basically isn't part of the rotation. Wouldn't be surprised if his time was limited, even though he's still the only traditional center on the roster. Stevens doesn't seem to care much about that.

I think Zeller has lost his spot to Lee specifically, though.  In terms of role, I think they are both offensive-minded centers.  Only room for one of them in the rotation.

If Lee leaves, I think Zeller could find there's a significant spot in the rotation for him again.  And if he doesn't play much this year, keeping him shouldn't cost a whole lot.

If the cost part is true (which it theoretically should be), then I'm fine with Zeller coming back next year.  He's a decent backup center. 

But I've always hated the idea of bringing him back at 8-12 million dollars per year.  Even in the new financial world of  the NBA, that's still putting the cart before the horse.  The team needs to find their starting center of the future before they worry about investing in his backup. 

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Re: C's big's next year and beyond
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2015, 04:13:12 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Quote from: Jon on November 14, 2015, 04:05:53 PM
Quote from: PhoSita on November 13, 2015, 05:30:40 PM
Quote from: Big333223 on November 13, 2015, 05:28:22 PM

Zeller has totally fallen out of the rotation. I know its early but it's been a pretty incredible fall given he was the starter on opening night and now basically isn't part of the rotation. Wouldn't be surprised if his time was limited, even though he's still the only traditional center on the roster. Stevens doesn't seem to care much about that.

I think Zeller has lost his spot to Lee specifically, though.  In terms of role, I think they are both offensive-minded centers.  Only room for one of them in the rotation.

If Lee leaves, I think Zeller could find there's a significant spot in the rotation for him again.  And if he doesn't play much this year, keeping him shouldn't cost a whole lot.

If the cost part is true (which it theoretically should be), then I'm fine with Zeller coming back next year.  He's a decent backup center. 

But I've always hated the idea of bringing him back at 8-12 million dollars per year.  Even in the new financial world of  the NBA, that's still putting the cart before the horse.  The team needs to find their starting center of the future before they worry about investing in his backup.

I just hate the idea of going back to the revolving door at center.  Zeller's not a starter, but he's still solid, and I was pleased by the idea of having some stability there, for at least 20 minutes a night.

I feel similarly about Zeller as I do about Crowder -- not really a guy I'd prefer starting unless the rest of my starting lineup is STACKED, but I'm really glad to have some stability at that position.
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You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
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Re: C's big's next year and beyond
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2015, 04:48:42 PM »

Offline Jon

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Quote from: PhoSita on November 14, 2015, 04:13:12 PM
Quote from: Jon on November 14, 2015, 04:05:53 PM
Quote from: PhoSita on November 13, 2015, 05:30:40 PM
Quote from: Big333223 on November 13, 2015, 05:28:22 PM

Zeller has totally fallen out of the rotation. I know its early but it's been a pretty incredible fall given he was the starter on opening night and now basically isn't part of the rotation. Wouldn't be surprised if his time was limited, even though he's still the only traditional center on the roster. Stevens doesn't seem to care much about that.

I think Zeller has lost his spot to Lee specifically, though.  In terms of role, I think they are both offensive-minded centers.  Only room for one of them in the rotation.

If Lee leaves, I think Zeller could find there's a significant spot in the rotation for him again.  And if he doesn't play much this year, keeping him shouldn't cost a whole lot.

If the cost part is true (which it theoretically should be), then I'm fine with Zeller coming back next year.  He's a decent backup center. 

But I've always hated the idea of bringing him back at 8-12 million dollars per year.  Even in the new financial world of  the NBA, that's still putting the cart before the horse.  The team needs to find their starting center of the future before they worry about investing in his backup.

I just hate the idea of going back to the revolving door at center.  Zeller's not a starter, but he's still solid, and I was pleased by the idea of having some stability there, for at least 20 minutes a night.

I feel similarly about Zeller as I do about Crowder -- not really a guy I'd prefer starting unless the rest of my starting lineup is STACKED, but I'm really glad to have some stability at that position.

I get that to some extent.  But even on a borderline playoff team, Stevens has decided that he's quite replaceable.  So what makes him not equally replaceable in the future?

On top of that, I think Crowder is a much different player in terms of value to the Celtics.  In today's NBA where the likes of LeBron and Durant reign supreme, having a defensive-minded 3/4 like Crowder is a pretty big asset.  On top of that, Crowder is signed to just 7 million a year. 

I suppose if we could get Zeller around that figure, it'd be OK.  But what does he really bring?  He's called a "center" because he is 7-0 tall, but because of his short arms, he actually has a standing reach that's one inch less than Jared Sullinger's.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Jared-Sullinger-5029/

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Tyler-Zeller-5154/

Partially as a result of that, he doesn't do many center-like things.  He doesn't block shots, he doesn't have much of a post game, and he isn't that physical. 

So I suppose if Ainge thinks he's an asset, I guess I'd be on board with keeping him at a team friendly deal.  But really, if he thinks it's going to limit our flexibility at all, I'd rather just focus our attention elsewhere and look to fill the backup center spot with either a youngster (Mickey or a draft pick) or some vet on the downside of his career.  If anything, the backup center spot should be at a lower-premium as more and more teams tend to go smaller, particularly in the postseason. 
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Re: C's big's next year and beyond
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2015, 05:27:37 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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Quote from: MJohnnyboy on November 13, 2015, 06:09:03 PM
Lee is the only one that is definitely not coming back after this season. He's a good player and I like what he's been doing, but he's a rental that really should finish his career being a 3rd big on a contender as his career dwindles down. He shouldn't be the 3rd big on a young team that's on the rise. Nothing against the C's but they aren't currently a contender. I foresee Lee being that 3rd big on a team like say the Clippers or the Rockets next year.

I can see Lee coming back to come off the bench for the right price, especially if Sullinger/Zeller go elsewhere.  Let's imagine that a team like the Nets decides it wants to overpay Sullinger with a max contract offer that the Celtics don't match and someone else wants to pay Zeller starter money.  Lee might also be willing to sign a team-friendly deal with unguaranteed years.

Lee might fit in with Jerebko behind Johnson, Olynyk, and a free agent pick-up, whether it is a declining Joakim Noah or snagging Timofey Mozgov (who is rumored to be likely to get a near-max offer) or an aggressive offer to overpay Festus Ezeli and make Golden State unwilling to match.
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Re: C's big's next year and beyond
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2015, 06:54:50 PM »

Offline Future Celtics Owner

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Quote from: Jon on November 14, 2015, 04:48:42 PM
Quote from: PhoSita on November 14, 2015, 04:13:12 PM
Quote from: Jon on November 14, 2015, 04:05:53 PM
Quote from: PhoSita on November 13, 2015, 05:30:40 PM
Quote from: Big333223 on November 13, 2015, 05:28:22 PM

Zeller has totally fallen out of the rotation. I know its early but it's been a pretty incredible fall given he was the starter on opening night and now basically isn't part of the rotation. Wouldn't be surprised if his time was limited, even though he's still the only traditional center on the roster. Stevens doesn't seem to care much about that.

I think Zeller has lost his spot to Lee specifically, though.  In terms of role, I think they are both offensive-minded centers.  Only room for one of them in the rotation.

If Lee leaves, I think Zeller could find there's a significant spot in the rotation for him again.  And if he doesn't play much this year, keeping him shouldn't cost a whole lot.

If the cost part is true (which it theoretically should be), then I'm fine with Zeller coming back next year.  He's a decent backup center. 

But I've always hated the idea of bringing him back at 8-12 million dollars per year.  Even in the new financial world of  the NBA, that's still putting the cart before the horse.  The team needs to find their starting center of the future before they worry about investing in his backup.

I just hate the idea of going back to the revolving door at center.  Zeller's not a starter, but he's still solid, and I was pleased by the idea of having some stability there, for at least 20 minutes a night.

I feel similarly about Zeller as I do about Crowder -- not really a guy I'd prefer starting unless the rest of my starting lineup is STACKED, but I'm really glad to have some stability at that position.

I get that to some extent.  But even on a borderline playoff team, Stevens has decided that he's quite replaceable.  So what makes him not equally replaceable in the future?

On top of that, I think Crowder is a much different player in terms of value to the Celtics.  In today's NBA where the likes of LeBron and Durant reign supreme, having a defensive-minded 3/4 like Crowder is a pretty big asset.  On top of that, Crowder is signed to just 7 million a year. 

I suppose if we could get Zeller around that figure, it'd be OK.  But what does he really bring?  He's called a "center" because he is 7-0 tall, but because of his short arms, he actually has a standing reach that's one inch less than Jared Sullinger's.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Jared-Sullinger-5029/

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Tyler-Zeller-5154/

Partially as a result of that, he doesn't do many center-like things.  He doesn't block shots, he doesn't have much of a post game, and he isn't that physical. 

So I suppose if Ainge thinks he's an asset, I guess I'd be on board with keeping him at a team friendly deal.  But really, if he thinks it's going to limit our flexibility at all, I'd rather just focus our attention elsewhere and look to fill the backup center spot with either a youngster (Mickey or a draft pick) or some vet on the downside of his career.  If anything, the backup center spot should be at a lower-premium as more and more teams tend to go smaller, particularly in the postseason.
Actually, Zellers standing reach is less than or equal to James Young. But James Young has great physical gifts and literally has nothing physically(except adding lean muscle) holding him back from reaching his potential at shooting guard.

But length wise Zeller = Young, but last year Zeller did a very good job of protecting the paint and challenging interior shots. He is no shotblocker or star but he is a very decent backup. All summer and even before I said we should trade Zeller and capitalize on his success (I also always threw in AB and ET) because I felt , like with many C's players, that they had either reached their potential or were close enough to it.
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