In their primes: KG or Kobe?

[D.o.s.]

Gasol had a higher WS, WS/48, VORP, and had a higher offensive rating and a lower defensive rating in both seasons.

The fact that Kobe has a high PER basically means he played more like Michael Jordan, and Finals MVP is, well, often times a popularity contest.

Yeah, the thing is I actually watched the games.  Gasol wasn't the guy I feared. 

I'm generally not that interested in advanced basketball stats.  They have some use, but never tell the full story.

I actually watched the games too. You're just falling victim to mythology and memories that are 6-7 years old. That's how memory works. 

If you don't have any interest in stats, that's fine, but it's not worth asking a question if you're just going to disavow the methodology used to get the results when you don't find that the answer is something you agreed with.

However, if your question was actually "you think it's easier to say that Kobe wasn't better than Gasol if I don't let you use any objective measurements and simply rely on nostalgia and marketing hype to determine my position before the conversation even starts" then, no, I don't think that's easy at all.

Gasol's role on those Lakers squads has always been criminally underrated: and this is a good example of why.

[knuckleballer]

Gasol had a higher WS, WS/48, VORP, and had a higher offensive rating and a lower defensive rating in both seasons.

The fact that Kobe has a high PER basically means he played more like Michael Jordan, and Finals MVP is, well, often times a popularity contest.

Yeah, the thing is I actually watched the games.  Gasol wasn't the guy I feared. 

I'm generally not that interested in advanced basketball stats.  They have some use, but never tell the full story.

I actually watched the games too. You're just falling victim to mythology and memories that are 6-7 years old. That's how memory works. 

If you don't have any interest in stats, that's fine, but it's not worth asking a question if you're just going to disavow the methodology used to get the results when you don't find that the answer is something you agreed with.

However, if your question was actually "you think it's easier to say that Kobe was better than Gasol if I don't let you use any objective measurements and simply rely on nostalgia and marketing hype to determine my position before the conversation even starts" then, no, I don't think that's easy at all.

Seriously?  I'm falling victim?  Yesterday, you told me I that my opinions weren't tethered to reality.  You are a joy to debate.

Much like the topic of the thread, there is no right answer, but there is no reason to put down who you are debating.  It's ok to disagree.

[Who]

Kobe definitely had the better career. Player on title contenders almost every season from 1997 to 2012. Made 7 NBA Finals and won 5 Championships (as best or 2nd best player).

KG was a brilliant player in Minnesota but he did not get to feature heavily in the playoffs (with the exception of one season) until he arrived in Boston. And then injuries struck KG down in his only his 2nd season with the team. He was still good after that but past his prime. Limited postseason success definitely counts against him in terms of best career.

But if building my own team and choosing which player I'd rather build around, I'd choose KG.

[Big333223]

Garnett, barely.

Garnett's biggest (only?) weakness was that sometimes he'd shrink in big moments but had he had more big game opportunities earlier in his career, I'm sure he would've improved in that area (much the way Kobe improved in that area over the course of his career).

It's tempting to pick Kobe because of all of the sucess he had and his incredible scoring numbers but then I look at the rosters on those early 00's Timberwolves teams. How the hell did those teams win 50 games every year with guys like Terrell Brandon and Rasho Nesterovic, as its best players? The only answer seems to be: Kevin Garnett.

What if he had been drafted by a team that knew what it was doing and could've surrounded with with real talent or even a complimentary star? I think it's possible if the roles reversed (KG a Laker, Kobe a Timberwolf) we wouldn't even be having this conversation. KG would be the clear answer.

[D.o.s.]

Gasol had a higher WS, WS/48, VORP, and had a higher offensive rating and a lower defensive rating in both seasons.

The fact that Kobe has a high PER basically means he played more like Michael Jordan, and Finals MVP is, well, often times a popularity contest.

Yeah, the thing is I actually watched the games.  Gasol wasn't the guy I feared. 

I'm generally not that interested in advanced basketball stats.  They have some use, but never tell the full story.

I actually watched the games too. You're just falling victim to mythology and memories that are 6-7 years old. That's how memory works. 

If you don't have any interest in stats, that's fine, but it's not worth asking a question if you're just going to disavow the methodology used to get the results when you don't find that the answer is something you agreed with.

However, if your question was actually "you think it's easier to say that Kobe was better than Gasol if I don't let you use any objective measurements and simply rely on nostalgia and marketing hype to determine my position before the conversation even starts" then, no, I don't think that's easy at all.

Seriously?  I'm falling victim?  Yesterday, you told me I that my opinions weren't tethered to reality.  You are a joy to debate.

Much like the topic of the thread, there is no right answer, but there is no reason to put down who you are debating.  It's ok to disagree.

"It is easier to prove Kobe was never the best player than it is to prove that he was."
"Oh really?"
"Yes really. *shows work*"
"Well I don't believe in empiricism."
"That's absurd."
"Hey man there's no right answer here, it's ok to disagree!"

And here we are.

[PhoSita]

Re: Gasol vs Kobe

What I remember in that 2010 series is not Kobe raining daggers, but the Celts getting dominated in the paint, especially on the boards. 

When it came down to it, the Lakers got lots of offensive rebounds and scored inside.  The old Celts got by on defensive grit and timely shot making, but the Lakers had the size.  Artest, Bynum, Odom all played a part in that, but Gasol was the real killer.

[D.o.s.]

I, for one, was terrified of watching Kobe go 6-24. Terrified. p---ing myself in fear. Defecating on small animals in horror, gnashing my teeth and wailing like a veiled widow at the prospect.

[Celtics17]

I have to go with KG on this one. It's hard for me ignore my bias against Kobe too but I really feel that KG is the better guy to build around. Isn't there a reason (Kobe) Shaq left LA and isn't it the same reason (Kobe) that they are still having trouble attracting quality free agents?

I'm also not sure the KG isnt the better player. It's hard to measure the impact a defensive big has on the game. The year KG won defensive player of the year I honestly felt he was the best defensive big man I have ever seen play. Kobe is great and I may be wrong here but I am going for team cohesiveness and this is Kobe's weak spot. KG is just the opposite and really pulls the team together. I sure would have like to seen KG in green for his whole career.

[knuckleballer]

Gasol had a higher WS, WS/48, VORP, and had a higher offensive rating and a lower defensive rating in both seasons.

The fact that Kobe has a high PER basically means he played more like Michael Jordan, and Finals MVP is, well, often times a popularity contest.

Yeah, the thing is I actually watched the games.  Gasol wasn't the guy I feared. 

I'm generally not that interested in advanced basketball stats.  They have some use, but never tell the full story.

I actually watched the games too. You're just falling victim to mythology and memories that are 6-7 years old. That's how memory works. 

If you don't have any interest in stats, that's fine, but it's not worth asking a question if you're just going to disavow the methodology used to get the results when you don't find that the answer is something you agreed with.

However, if your question was actually "you think it's easier to say that Kobe was better than Gasol if I don't let you use any objective measurements and simply rely on nostalgia and marketing hype to determine my position before the conversation even starts" then, no, I don't think that's easy at all.

Seriously?  I'm falling victim?  Yesterday, you told me I that my opinions weren't tethered to reality.  You are a joy to debate.

Much like the topic of the thread, there is no right answer, but there is no reason to put down who you are debating.  It's ok to disagree.

"It is easier to prove Kobe was never the best player than it is to prove that he was."
"Oh really?"
"Yes really. *shows work*"
"Well I don't believe in empiricism."
"That's absurd."
"Hey man there's no right answer here, it's ok to disagree!"

And here we are.

I would say his higher scoring and ability to create his own shot and make difficult ones at the end of games and the threat of doing so made him more valuable than Gasol in those series.

Your narrative conveniently left out your put downs.  I'm not looking for a fight, just relax a bit.  This is supposed to be fun.

[knuckleballer]

I, for one, was terrified of watching Kobe go 6-24. Terrified. p---ing myself in fear. Defecating on small animals in horror, gnashing my teeth and wailing like a veiled widow at the prospect.

I sense some sarcasm. 

[D.o.s.]

For the record: I'm relaxed.  This is just how I type.

[knuckleballer]

For the record: I'm relaxed.  This is just how I type.

I don't doubt you, maybe I should have said ease up a bit.  But, no worries.

[Big333223]

Re: Gasol vs Kobe

What I remember in that 2010 series is not Kobe raining daggers, but the Celts getting dominated in the paint, especially on the boards. 

When it came down to it, the Lakers got lots of offensive rebounds and scored inside.  The old Celts got by on defensive grit and timely shot making, but the Lakers had the size.  Artest, Bynum, Odom all played a part in that, but Gasol was the real killer.

Same. I have a memory of Gasol destroying us on the offensive boards. He and Odom were two of the most versatile players in the game and covered so much ground for those Laker teams while deferring to Kobe and making him look good. Kobe was the better player, yes, but in at least one of those 2 Finals ('09 and '10) Gasol outplayed him.

[SHAQATTACK]

KG was my fav player , before his becoming a Celtic.

Kobe dominated offense and won countless games . His scoring was electric . 


KG .....at his prime was a one man wrecking crew.......the baddest of the bad.

[PhoSita]

I, for one, was terrified of watching Kobe go 6-24. Terrified. p---ing myself in fear. Defecating on small animals in horror, gnashing my teeth and wailing like a veiled widow at the prospect.

To be fair to Kobe, he had 15 boards and 15 free throw attempts in that game.

Let's not talk about the officiating in that Game 7.


Anyway, I think the point here is not to argue that Gasol was a better player than Kobe, but rather to say that Kobe wouldn't be KOBE if he had never played with Shaq and Pau.  By the same token, Michael would never have been MICHAEL if he hadn't gotten to play with Pippen, and probably wouldn't be THE GREATEST without playing with Rodman or even guys like Kukoc and Grant.

I could do the same thing with Tim Duncan, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird and a host of other greats.

KG's a great example of how having a historic career depends in large part on who you get to play with, along with how you play individually. 

Right now it looks like Anthony Davis may be on the same path that KG was on back then.  Hopefully New Orleans finds a way to put a second star next to him.  Otherwise, I hope he doesn't do what KG did and choose loyalty over finding a team that can support his talent.