Author Topic: #NBAFrontOffice on the Celtics Rebuild  (Read 19435 times)

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Re: #NBAFrontOffice on the Celtics Rebuild
« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2015, 01:25:25 PM »

Offline Evantime34

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There bench is so bad I honestly can't even figure out what 10 guys you would use in this kind of analysis



Here's the rotation I used:


Jack (30), Larkin (18)
Bogdanovic (28), Ellington (20)
Johnson (34), Karasev (14)
T. Young (34), Bargnani (12)
B. Lopez (34), T. Robinson (18)


It's a rough estimation based on a quick and flawed process, but I find that going on WS / 48 tends to yield results that sound about right.  It can't, of course, account for surprising swings in performance in one direction or the other, nor can it account for injuries.

I agree with C18 -- if the Nets win only 32 games, that would be a fine outcome.  Might even be top 10.

Still, if we want to get a really exciting pick from them, I think we'll be hoping on Lopez to miss significant time, or for Jack and Joe to experience a precipitous decline.
I think you need to scale your numbers down. Even if Lopez plays 34 minutes a game, for your win prediction to be accurate he would need to play 34 minutes a game in every game. That is 2788 minutes over the course of the season which Lopez hasn't done since 2010/11.

The thing is they aren't only going to play 10 guys the entire year. The last five guys on the roster will eventually get in the game and that will bring their numbers down.

My bad you covered many of these points in a previous post.
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Re: #NBAFrontOffice on the Celtics Rebuild
« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2015, 01:30:40 PM »

Offline Granath

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However, with the Nets pick I don't understand why we can't be really optimistic. Yes they will not not shut it down like a traditional bad team because they won't reap the rewards, but where is the upside on their roster?

I will say I can see a scenario where they make the playoffs as a 7 or 8 seed, but I think it's extremely unlikely that both the Celtics and the Nets make the playoffs next year.  The Wiz, Cavs, Bulls, Bucks, Pacers, Hawks and Heat I feel like are all clearly better than either of us.  That's 7 teams.  Even if someone on one of those teams (like Paul George) are injured early on and their team drops out of contention, there are still the Bobcats, Raptors, Pistons, Knicks and Hornets who should all be theoretically capable of grabbing the 8 seed.  So I think we'll have at least one lottery ticket next year and there's a decent enough chance for two.  Unfortunately, only the 1st and 2nd picks seem like they have transcendent potential and then there's a much steeper drop off after than than other years.

TP for this (people are being too stingy with TPs lately).

I agree that it's quite unlikely that both the Nets and the Celtics make the playoffs again. The East is a crap shoot (pun intended), but all the teams you named have an outside shot at making the playoffs. The Nets are the more likely team to miss the playoffs as most of their guys are post-peak while most of the Celtics are still getting better. But given the large number of teams that will be fighting for the last 2 or 3 spots, the odds are that both the Cs and the Nets making it are relatively slim. In fact, the chances are probably better than neither the Celtics nor the Nets make the playoffs versus both making it again. Of course, I hope that last scenario isn't the case...  :)
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Re: #NBAFrontOffice on the Celtics Rebuild
« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2015, 01:32:29 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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You're funny.

Unintentional humor is the best humor.  Please enlighten me, how do I amuse you in this instance?

I should be clear, when I say "in the playoff hunt" I mean, "in theory, if they went on a 10 game winning streak, they could make the playoffs." 

Again, this is the East.  You can have a really horrible team and still be in the hunt in March unless you really pack it in.

I just love your ability to always look for and find the clouds in between the silver lining.

 
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SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: #NBAFrontOffice on the Celtics Rebuild
« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2015, 01:34:21 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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My bad you covered many of these points in a previous post.

No problem.  I don't have the time to do a super thorough accounts-for-every-eventuality prediction.

My point, mainly, was to show that the Nets do have enough talent in place on their roster to be a somewhat competent team.  If we apply the same optimism to them that we regularly apply to our own group, it's not so hard to imagine them reaching 35+ wins.

But, it's also easy to see how they could suffer some bad luck and end up in the mid 20s.

As I've said so many times, though, I think the Eastern Conference is such a complete joke that it's tough to end up at the bottom of the standings unless you have a reason to pack it in a few months before the season ends.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
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Re: #NBAFrontOffice on the Celtics Rebuild
« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2015, 01:34:57 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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You're funny.

Unintentional humor is the best humor.  Please enlighten me, how do I amuse you in this instance?

I should be clear, when I say "in the playoff hunt" I mean, "in theory, if they went on a 10 game winning streak, they could make the playoffs." 

Again, this is the East.  You can have a really horrible team and still be in the hunt in March unless you really pack it in.

I just love your ability to always look for and find the clouds in between the silver lining.

I do what I can. :)
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
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Re: #NBAFrontOffice on the Celtics Rebuild
« Reply #35 on: August 05, 2015, 01:46:26 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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However, with the Nets pick I don't understand why we can't be really optimistic. Yes they will not not shut it down like a traditional bad team because they won't reap the rewards, but where is the upside on their roster?

I will say I can see a scenario where they make the playoffs as a 7 or 8 seed, but I think it's extremely unlikely that both the Celtics and the Nets make the playoffs next year.  The Wiz, Cavs, Bulls, Bucks, Pacers, Hawks and Heat I feel like are all clearly better than either of us.  That's 7 teams.  Even if someone on one of those teams (like Paul George) are injured early on and their team drops out of contention, there are still the Bobcats, Raptors, Pistons, Knicks and Hornets who should all be theoretically capable of grabbing the 8 seed.  So I think we'll have at least one lottery ticket next year and there's a decent enough chance for two. Unfortunately, only the 1st and 2nd picks seem like they have transcendent potential and then there's a much steeper drop off after than than other years.

What about Dragan "Don't Call Me Jonathan" Bender?
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: #NBAFrontOffice on the Celtics Rebuild
« Reply #36 on: August 05, 2015, 01:51:20 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I don't trust anything I hear about the strength of a draft this early in the year.  Let's see how some of these guys look in college, and how the story changes on them as they are scouted more intensely

Just going on the guys who are projected in the top 10 on DraftExpress, it looks like there are plenty of PF/C and SF types.  That's good for us.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
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Re: #NBAFrontOffice on the Celtics Rebuild
« Reply #37 on: August 05, 2015, 02:04:57 PM »

Offline Evantime34

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My bad you covered many of these points in a previous post.

No problem.  I don't have the time to do a super thorough accounts-for-every-eventuality prediction.

My point, mainly, was to show that the Nets do have enough talent in place on their roster to be a somewhat competent team.  If we apply the same optimism to them that we regularly apply to our own group, it's not so hard to imagine them reaching 35+ wins.

But, it's also easy to see how they could suffer some bad luck and end up in the mid 20s.

As I've said so many times, though, I think the Eastern Conference is such a complete joke that it's tough to end up at the bottom of the standings unless you have a reason to pack it in a few months before the season ends.
The Nets could easily exceed expectations and win 35 games, their margin for error is tiny though.

My optimism for my own group comes from coaching, depth, effort and second half results. Where the Nets optimism comes from a career year from Lopez and absolutely no injuries.

I agree we can't take it for granted that the Nets will be awful, but I think it's a lot more likely than not.
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Re: #NBAFrontOffice on the Celtics Rebuild
« Reply #38 on: August 05, 2015, 02:13:32 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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You have kind of proved my point with how you did this calculation. You have given the absolute best possible scenario and rotations to these guys to eek the way to 32 wins.


I think I made that pretty clear.


No team ends up spending the entire 82 games with their projected 10 man rotation at the start of the year, though.

So yeah, you can come up with all kinds of reasons why things will go wrong for them, or why their best players won't play that many minutes or games.

Yes, the Nets are lacking in depth, which makes them more susceptible to things going wrong.

Still, 30 wins or so sounds right to me, barring a catastrophic injury or Joe Johnson falling off a cliff.  I don't know about the former, but I doubt that the latter is going to happen. 


The Nets may not get much higher than 30 wins due to their lack of depth, but this is the Eastern Conference, and a well coached team that gets some unexpected contributions from some scrappy bench guys and rides their core guys hard (as the Nets did at the end of this past season) can win 5-8 more games than expected.   The Celts did it, after all.


The Nets might bottom out and finish with a terrible record.  I'm not placing any bets on it.  There will be teams that are doing poorly sometime in February and decide to pack it in.  The Nets have no reason to do that.  They will keep fighting to get the most out of their roster for the entire season.  In the East, that should be enough to remain in the playoff hunt until April.


We like to talk about all the reasons why the Celts will continually exceed expectations.  Why no willingness to do that for the Nets?  They've got a nice coach, too.  Lionel Hollins isn't perfect, but I don't think he's likely to let that team fall into the gutter.  He's done a good job with that team so far.

With respect to this, for me personally, I think the Celtics could improve based on things that historically and normally happen in the NBA. We do have a few players that should be improving like Smart, KO, Crowder and Sullinger in a contract year. These guys are all between 21-25 and have a few seasons of experience under the belt. Historically, this is a time when players at their age/experience level increase.

By contrast our other rotation players are actually pretty young and should not be getting worse. Bradley will be 25, Turner is 26, IT is 26. We only have 1 player over 30 in David Lee (32). This means we have a lot of room for improvement in a traditional way of players improving in their early and mid 20's.

By contrast, you are expecting big healthy seasons from guys in their 30's like Jack and an ancient Joe Johnson.

The Celtics also have a much larger room for error because of their depth so when IT, or Sullinger inevitably miss a handful of games we are still able to play NBA level players like Amir, Lee, Smart, Bradley, Jerekbo at the same positions that won't absolutely destroy us. When any of these Nets guys miss a handful of games, you are talking about sub-replacement levels players entering the court. That is a fact that is unavoidable and is worth at least some wins.

I guess at larger picture the Celtics finished with a better record than the Nets last year. We only lost one player that played significant minutes (Bass) and have added at least two (Johnson and Lee) that more than offset that. Meanwhile, the Nets lost a bunch of their rotation including their 3rd best player and best backup big and only got one healthy replacement in Bargs that is expected to play. You add all this stuff up and they are a really bad team, one that is worse than the 38 win outfit from last year with very few avenues for internal improvement. Repeating the East is weak over and over again as your main argument isn't really countering any of that.

Re: #NBAFrontOffice on the Celtics Rebuild
« Reply #39 on: August 05, 2015, 02:18:55 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I agree we can't take it for granted that the Nets will be awful, but I think it's a lot more likely than not.

Well, I hope you're right and I'm wrong. 
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
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Re: #NBAFrontOffice on the Celtics Rebuild
« Reply #40 on: August 05, 2015, 02:32:23 PM »

Offline MikeJelly

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I just wanna say, I am NOT for trading the Nets pick or Dallas pick in 2016. Honestly lets say the nets are bad enough to give us something in 2-5, thats a potential superstar. And lets say Dallas is bad enough to give us something between 8-12.

We need a young superstar to build around. Not an average team.


Re: #NBAFrontOffice on the Celtics Rebuild
« Reply #41 on: August 05, 2015, 02:34:31 PM »

Offline ahonui06

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I just wanna say, I am NOT for trading the Nets pick or Dallas pick in 2016. Honestly lets say the nets are bad enough to give us something in 2-5, thats a potential superstar. And lets say Dallas is bad enough to give us something between 8-12.

We need a young superstar to build around. Not an average team.

I wouldn't trade either picks either.

Re: #NBAFrontOffice on the Celtics Rebuild
« Reply #42 on: August 05, 2015, 02:40:25 PM »

Offline mef730

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However, with the Nets pick I don't understand why we can't be really optimistic.

Because I also grew up as a Red Sox fan. Optimism=future pain

Mike

Re: #NBAFrontOffice on the Celtics Rebuild
« Reply #43 on: August 05, 2015, 02:45:03 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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However, with the Nets pick I don't understand why we can't be really optimistic.

Because I also grew up as a Red Sox fan. Optimism=future pain

Mike

Some one on here posted something to the effect of "always being optimistic seems to work for the Red Sox fans" and all I could think of was what a total shift in culture.
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Re: #NBAFrontOffice on the Celtics Rebuild
« Reply #44 on: August 05, 2015, 02:45:26 PM »

Offline mef730

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Our only hope on that front is Brook Lopez breaking his foot / ankle again.  Definitely plausible.  But he was relatively healthy last year.

Nah, I don't like to root for injury. How about something more upbeat, like he and Thaddeus Young fall in love, quit basketball, elope and run off together?

But an injury is more likely:

2010-11: 82 games
2011-12: 5 games
2012-13: 74 games
2013-14: 17 games
2014-15: 72 games

He doesn't do so well in the seasons ending in even number years.

Mike