Would you trade #16 for Anthony Bennett?

[max215]

When you have both Sully and KO it becomes tempting to trade one of them for
more athleticism.  in this case I believe both Sully and KO are too skilled
as team players to make this trade.  They are both extremely high IQ players
who can do exactly what BS wants.  They both have faults but Sully is just plain
better than Bennett and KO is too young/inexperienced to give up in a risky trade like this.
Time will tell on this one.  Sometimes risks turn out pretty glorious.
Note:  If Bennett becomes a star the Kevin Love trade becomes pretty wildly imbalanced.

Bottom line:  At this point the 16th pick is too much to give up for Bennett.  Need sweetener.

As to ImShaq's lament,  I do wonder how LarBrd would treat Bennett, or McClemore, once they
became Celtics.  I suspect they would quickly become "our garbage".

That's the point I have tried to make. Thank you.

Yeah, it's a weak one though.   That assumes I would be spend years arguing that Kevin Garnett was statistically one of the best players in the league and suddenly change my mind after he became a Celtic.  That certainly didn't happen.  I consistently pointed out that he was the savior of this franchise and well after everyone else had attributed our success to Rondo, I was still pointing out how KG's otherworldly defense was still the engine driving our moderate success.   

Your point assumes I'd spend years arguing that Jeff Green could be a fringe star with minutes...  and change my opinion as soon as he joined the Celtics.  That didn't happen either.  His production peaked out right about where I expected him.  I posted several times about how he had talent and despite his role in OKC, he had a future as a nice scorer on a lotto team.   That's exactly what happened.  I even speculated that Perk could be traded for him about a year prior to the trade even happening.

I can't be faulted for having a luke warm opinion of toss-in talent like Jerebko.  And fwiw, I overrated Rondo pretty dramatically.  I thought he was worth a top 10 draft pick (as evidence by my post earlier where I desperately wanted us to trade him for #6 in 2013).  In retrospect, I totally overshot his value.  He netted us a late 1st and some role players. 

Your point assumes I could never see the potential of Al Jefferson while I was declaring my skepticism of Gerald Green...  That didn't happen.  I loved Big Al and strongly believed he'd develop into a 20/10 guy.   I've also posted multiple threads here singing praises of Olynyk's production.  He's got some talent.   This thread isn't really about me saying we should trade Olynyk or Sullinger for Anthony Bennett.  It's asking if Anthony Bennett is a better gamble than #16.

I will say, If Sully played on the Rockets and Terrence JOnes played on the Celtics, I'd point out that Jones had comparable trade value to Jared Sullinger and I'd get ripped for it by Celtic fans who saw it as an insult to Jones. 

I'll also say, if you're seeing a recent trend of me being down on the Celtics talent, it speaks way more to our team's lack of talent than to my admitted pessimism.    This team hasn't always been devoid of talent.   We're in a pretty stretch right now.  Marcus Smart is easily our most valuable chip and while I like Smart, he's barely a starter at this point in his career.

No, you missed the point, if KG was always a Celts from day 1 no one would say he was bad. If Sully was on another team putting up the numbers he does, in the minutes he gets, people would be all over us getting him instead of people saying he has to go. If Bennett was a Celts playing the way he has, you can't tell me you wouldn't be calling him a terrible player. Just look at how you value players who already perform better than he does. Don't try and use players who were already good, we are talking about players like KO, Bennett (potential), Ben Mac etc.

I don't know how this is in dispute, you don't like our guys who have proven they are better than Bennett (leave potential out of it), if he was picked by us you would have been making threads on how we should trade him off. No way you would be talking potential. Oh, let's not forget how much he has been injured, I can just imagine the threads that would be up about that!

Part of that is expectations of players taken 1-6 vs guys taken 12-25.    If a guy picked #17 is putting up underwhelming numbers, it is what it is.   If a guy taken 1-6 is putting up underwhelming numbers... sometimes you need to give them benefit of the doubt.  Some players are drafted based on potential.  It's why Marcus Smart is easily the best asset on our roster despite a pretty ho-hum rookie campaign that had him selected 2nd team All-Rookie behind Jordan Clarkson.  You gotta hope that Smart will develop into something.

Please stop citing this as evidence of Smart's supposed failures. We all know that the All-Rookie teams are garbage, shown clearly by previous years' teams. If Jordan Clarkson winds up having a better NBA career than Marcus Smart, I will (like Top Gear's Jeremy Clarkson) eat an omelette filled with my own hair.

[hwangjini_1]

So when do you pronounce him a bust?  Five years?    Guys still wanted Darko to do well but guess what he never did.    We drafted Michael Smith and they knew right away that he was a dud.  13th pick, Red stated I hope he plays like Larry and he was a short armed bad pick.  It only took them two seasons to waive him.    Bennett has had two seasons.

Sometimes a team reaches for a guy that is not that good.  Anyone recall Mandarich in football?   Brian Bosworth?   Sam Bowie was hurt.  Darko was a reach and never played to level of pick he was picked.  Adam Morrison anyone?

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1657535-15-biggest-nba-draft-busts-of-all-time

Bennett may make this list some day.

This article had him as the fourth worst bust ever.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1900463-ranking-anthony-bennett-among-biggest-nba-draft-busts-over-last-20-years

The jury is still out.   I definitely do not think he is worth the risk.  I would rather roll the dice on 16.

good post. thanks and a tp. the bennett/top busts article was an interesting trip down memory lane. it also made me think about all the projections, predictions, and hopes cbers are putting into this (and every?) draft.

who will be this year's "sure thing who became a bust"? judging from the article, tall guys seem to be chosen earlier and a scary number of them never become any good.

at the risk of high jacking this thread, i wonder if this year will  provide a new candidate for the top 20 busts list?

[colincb]

The following response in a thread from sister blog Canis Hoopus sums Bennett up well:

"I think most of us understand what he is: a non-competitive, poor shooting, non-aggressive, not-do-**** guy"

Career TS% is sub-45% and his overall Real +/- was 3rd worst in the NBA just behind fellow T-Wolve Zack Lavine who was 2nd team all-rookie solely off his showing in the dunk contest. 

Smart had the second best overall Real +/- among rookies to Mirotic who started playing pro ball for Real Madrid in 2008. Third was Payton. They were the only rookies in the top 100. Clarkson was 315th overall, but offense gets you on the rookie teams as well as dunk contests apparently. Clarkson's near the bottom among PGs in Defensive Real +/-.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/3/sort/DRPM/position/1

[celticsclay]

When you have both Sully and KO it becomes tempting to trade one of them for
more athleticism.  in this case I believe both Sully and KO are too skilled
as team players to make this trade.  They are both extremely high IQ players
who can do exactly what BS wants.  They both have faults but Sully is just plain
better than Bennett and KO is too young/inexperienced to give up in a risky trade like this.
Time will tell on this one.  Sometimes risks turn out pretty glorious.
Note:  If Bennett becomes a star the Kevin Love trade becomes pretty wildly imbalanced.

Bottom line:  At this point the 16th pick is too much to give up for Bennett.  Need sweetener.

As to ImShaq's lament,  I do wonder how LarBrd would treat Bennett, or McClemore, once they
became Celtics.  I suspect they would quickly become "our garbage".

That's the point I have tried to make. Thank you.

Yeah, it's a weak one though.   That assumes I would be spend years arguing that Kevin Garnett was statistically one of the best players in the league and suddenly change my mind after he became a Celtic.  That certainly didn't happen.  I consistently pointed out that he was the savior of this franchise and well after everyone else had attributed our success to Rondo, I was still pointing out how KG's otherworldly defense was still the engine driving our moderate success.   

Your point assumes I'd spend years arguing that Jeff Green could be a fringe star with minutes...  and change my opinion as soon as he joined the Celtics.  That didn't happen either.  His production peaked out right about where I expected him.  I posted several times about how he had talent and despite his role in OKC, he had a future as a nice scorer on a lotto team.   That's exactly what happened.  I even speculated that Perk could be traded for him about a year prior to the trade even happening.

I can't be faulted for having a luke warm opinion of toss-in talent like Jerebko.  And fwiw, I overrated Rondo pretty dramatically.  I thought he was worth a top 10 draft pick (as evidence by my post earlier where I desperately wanted us to trade him for #6 in 2013).  In retrospect, I totally overshot his value.  He netted us a late 1st and some role players. 

Your point assumes I could never see the potential of Al Jefferson while I was declaring my skepticism of Gerald Green...  That didn't happen.  I loved Big Al and strongly believed he'd develop into a 20/10 guy.   I've also posted multiple threads here singing praises of Olynyk's production.  He's got some talent.   This thread isn't really about me saying we should trade Olynyk or Sullinger for Anthony Bennett.  It's asking if Anthony Bennett is a better gamble than #16.

I will say, If Sully played on the Rockets and Terrence JOnes played on the Celtics, I'd point out that Jones had comparable trade value to Jared Sullinger and I'd get ripped for it by Celtic fans who saw it as an insult to Jones. 

I'll also say, if you're seeing a recent trend of me being down on the Celtics talent, it speaks way more to our team's lack of talent than to my admitted pessimism.    This team hasn't always been devoid of talent.   We're in a pretty stretch right now.  Marcus Smart is easily our most valuable chip and while I like Smart, he's barely a starter at this point in his career.

No, you missed the point, if KG was always a Celts from day 1 no one would say he was bad. If Sully was on another team putting up the numbers he does, in the minutes he gets, people would be all over us getting him instead of people saying he has to go. If Bennett was a Celts playing the way he has, you can't tell me you wouldn't be calling him a terrible player. Just look at how you value players who already perform better than he does. Don't try and use players who were already good, we are talking about players like KO, Bennett (potential), Ben Mac etc.

I don't know how this is in dispute, you don't like our guys who have proven they are better than Bennett (leave potential out of it), if he was picked by us you would have been making threads on how we should trade him off. No way you would be talking potential. Oh, let's not forget how much he has been injured, I can just imagine the threads that would be up about that!

Part of that is expectations of players taken 1-6 vs guys taken 12-25.    If a guy picked #17 is putting up underwhelming numbers, it is what it is.   If a guy taken 1-6 is putting up underwhelming numbers... sometimes you need to give them benefit of the doubt.  Some players are drafted based on potential.  It's why Marcus Smart is easily the best asset on our roster despite a pretty ho-hum rookie campaign that had him selected 2nd team All-Rookie behind Jordan Clarkson.  You gotta hope that Smart will develop into something.

Please stop citing this as evidence of Smart's supposed failures. We all know that the All-Rookie teams are garbage, shown clearly by previous years' teams. If Jordan Clarkson winds up having a better NBA career than Marcus Smart, I will (like Top Gear's Jeremy Clarkson) eat an omelette filled with my own hair.

+100000 larbird you are better than this. You have posted this like 15 times. A few years ago landry field was all team first rookie over a bunch of future stars. There are examples of this just about every year. It's just embarassing to keep bringing this up like this. The dead horse called, it said please stop beating me

[LarBrd33]

When you have both Sully and KO it becomes tempting to trade one of them for
more athleticism.  in this case I believe both Sully and KO are too skilled
as team players to make this trade.  They are both extremely high IQ players
who can do exactly what BS wants.  They both have faults but Sully is just plain
better than Bennett and KO is too young/inexperienced to give up in a risky trade like this.
Time will tell on this one.  Sometimes risks turn out pretty glorious.
Note:  If Bennett becomes a star the Kevin Love trade becomes pretty wildly imbalanced.

Bottom line:  At this point the 16th pick is too much to give up for Bennett.  Need sweetener.

As to ImShaq's lament,  I do wonder how LarBrd would treat Bennett, or McClemore, once they
became Celtics.  I suspect they would quickly become "our garbage".

That's the point I have tried to make. Thank you.

Yeah, it's a weak one though.   That assumes I would be spend years arguing that Kevin Garnett was statistically one of the best players in the league and suddenly change my mind after he became a Celtic.  That certainly didn't happen.  I consistently pointed out that he was the savior of this franchise and well after everyone else had attributed our success to Rondo, I was still pointing out how KG's otherworldly defense was still the engine driving our moderate success.   

Your point assumes I'd spend years arguing that Jeff Green could be a fringe star with minutes...  and change my opinion as soon as he joined the Celtics.  That didn't happen either.  His production peaked out right about where I expected him.  I posted several times about how he had talent and despite his role in OKC, he had a future as a nice scorer on a lotto team.   That's exactly what happened.  I even speculated that Perk could be traded for him about a year prior to the trade even happening.

I can't be faulted for having a luke warm opinion of toss-in talent like Jerebko.  And fwiw, I overrated Rondo pretty dramatically.  I thought he was worth a top 10 draft pick (as evidence by my post earlier where I desperately wanted us to trade him for #6 in 2013).  In retrospect, I totally overshot his value.  He netted us a late 1st and some role players. 

Your point assumes I could never see the potential of Al Jefferson while I was declaring my skepticism of Gerald Green...  That didn't happen.  I loved Big Al and strongly believed he'd develop into a 20/10 guy.   I've also posted multiple threads here singing praises of Olynyk's production.  He's got some talent.   This thread isn't really about me saying we should trade Olynyk or Sullinger for Anthony Bennett.  It's asking if Anthony Bennett is a better gamble than #16.

I will say, If Sully played on the Rockets and Terrence JOnes played on the Celtics, I'd point out that Jones had comparable trade value to Jared Sullinger and I'd get ripped for it by Celtic fans who saw it as an insult to Jones. 

I'll also say, if you're seeing a recent trend of me being down on the Celtics talent, it speaks way more to our team's lack of talent than to my admitted pessimism.    This team hasn't always been devoid of talent.   We're in a pretty stretch right now.  Marcus Smart is easily our most valuable chip and while I like Smart, he's barely a starter at this point in his career.

No, you missed the point, if KG was always a Celts from day 1 no one would say he was bad. If Sully was on another team putting up the numbers he does, in the minutes he gets, people would be all over us getting him instead of people saying he has to go. If Bennett was a Celts playing the way he has, you can't tell me you wouldn't be calling him a terrible player. Just look at how you value players who already perform better than he does. Don't try and use players who were already good, we are talking about players like KO, Bennett (potential), Ben Mac etc.

I don't know how this is in dispute, you don't like our guys who have proven they are better than Bennett (leave potential out of it), if he was picked by us you would have been making threads on how we should trade him off. No way you would be talking potential. Oh, let's not forget how much he has been injured, I can just imagine the threads that would be up about that!

Part of that is expectations of players taken 1-6 vs guys taken 12-25.    If a guy picked #17 is putting up underwhelming numbers, it is what it is.   If a guy taken 1-6 is putting up underwhelming numbers... sometimes you need to give them benefit of the doubt.  Some players are drafted based on potential.  It's why Marcus Smart is easily the best asset on our roster despite a pretty ho-hum rookie campaign that had him selected 2nd team All-Rookie behind Jordan Clarkson.  You gotta hope that Smart will develop into something.

Please stop citing this as evidence of Smart's supposed failures. We all know that the All-Rookie teams are garbage, shown clearly by previous years' teams. If Jordan Clarkson winds up having a better NBA career than Marcus Smart, I will (like Top Gear's Jeremy Clarkson) eat an omelette filled with my own hair.

+100000 larbird you are better than this. You have posted this like 15 times. A few years ago landry field was all team first rookie over a bunch of future stars. There are examples of this just about every year. It's just embarassing to keep bringing this up like this. The dead horse called, it said please stop beating me

heh.  I'll re-write the post in a way that will not cause you to overlook my point:

Part of that is expectations of players taken 1-6 vs guys taken 12-25.    If a guy picked #17 is putting up underwhelming numbers, it is what it is.   If a guy taken 1-6 is putting up underwhelming numbers... sometimes you need to give them benefit of the doubt.  Some players are drafted based on potential.  It's why Marcus Smart (former #6 pick) is easily the best asset on our roster despite a pretty ho-hum rookie campaign that had him average a lowly 7.8 points, 3.1 assits, 3.3 rebounds, 1.5 steals with ghastly 37%/36%/65% shooting (202nd best player in the league in terms of pure statistical efficiency).  You gotta hope that Smart will develop into something.

[MBunge]

When you have both Sully and KO it becomes tempting to trade one of them for
more athleticism.  in this case I believe both Sully and KO are too skilled
as team players to make this trade.  They are both extremely high IQ players
who can do exactly what BS wants.  They both have faults but Sully is just plain
better than Bennett and KO is too young/inexperienced to give up in a risky trade like this.
Time will tell on this one.  Sometimes risks turn out pretty glorious.
Note:  If Bennett becomes a star the Kevin Love trade becomes pretty wildly imbalanced.

Bottom line:  At this point the 16th pick is too much to give up for Bennett.  Need sweetener.

As to ImShaq's lament,  I do wonder how LarBrd would treat Bennett, or McClemore, once they
became Celtics.  I suspect they would quickly become "our garbage".

That's the point I have tried to make. Thank you.

Yeah, it's a weak one though.   That assumes I would be spend years arguing that Kevin Garnett was statistically one of the best players in the league and suddenly change my mind after he became a Celtic.  That certainly didn't happen.  I consistently pointed out that he was the savior of this franchise and well after everyone else had attributed our success to Rondo, I was still pointing out how KG's otherworldly defense was still the engine driving our moderate success.   

Your point assumes I'd spend years arguing that Jeff Green could be a fringe star with minutes...  and change my opinion as soon as he joined the Celtics.  That didn't happen either.  His production peaked out right about where I expected him.  I posted several times about how he had talent and despite his role in OKC, he had a future as a nice scorer on a lotto team.   That's exactly what happened.  I even speculated that Perk could be traded for him about a year prior to the trade even happening.

I can't be faulted for having a luke warm opinion of toss-in talent like Jerebko.  And fwiw, I overrated Rondo pretty dramatically.  I thought he was worth a top 10 draft pick (as evidence by my post earlier where I desperately wanted us to trade him for #6 in 2013).  In retrospect, I totally overshot his value.  He netted us a late 1st and some role players. 

Your point assumes I could never see the potential of Al Jefferson while I was declaring my skepticism of Gerald Green...  That didn't happen.  I loved Big Al and strongly believed he'd develop into a 20/10 guy.   I've also posted multiple threads here singing praises of Olynyk's production.  He's got some talent.   This thread isn't really about me saying we should trade Olynyk or Sullinger for Anthony Bennett.  It's asking if Anthony Bennett is a better gamble than #16.

I will say, If Sully played on the Rockets and Terrence JOnes played on the Celtics, I'd point out that Jones had comparable trade value to Jared Sullinger and I'd get ripped for it by Celtic fans who saw it as an insult to Jones. 

I'll also say, if you're seeing a recent trend of me being down on the Celtics talent, it speaks way more to our team's lack of talent than to my admitted pessimism.    This team hasn't always been devoid of talent.   We're in a pretty stretch right now.  Marcus Smart is easily our most valuable chip and while I like Smart, he's barely a starter at this point in his career.

No, you missed the point, if KG was always a Celts from day 1 no one would say he was bad. If Sully was on another team putting up the numbers he does, in the minutes he gets, people would be all over us getting him instead of people saying he has to go. If Bennett was a Celts playing the way he has, you can't tell me you wouldn't be calling him a terrible player. Just look at how you value players who already perform better than he does. Don't try and use players who were already good, we are talking about players like KO, Bennett (potential), Ben Mac etc.

I don't know how this is in dispute, you don't like our guys who have proven they are better than Bennett (leave potential out of it), if he was picked by us you would have been making threads on how we should trade him off. No way you would be talking potential. Oh, let's not forget how much he has been injured, I can just imagine the threads that would be up about that!

Part of that is expectations of players taken 1-6 vs guys taken 12-25.    If a guy picked #17 is putting up underwhelming numbers, it is what it is.   If a guy taken 1-6 is putting up underwhelming numbers... sometimes you need to give them benefit of the doubt.  Some players are drafted based on potential.  It's why Marcus Smart is easily the best asset on our roster despite a pretty ho-hum rookie campaign that had him selected 2nd team All-Rookie behind Jordan Clarkson.  You gotta hope that Smart will develop into something.

Please stop citing this as evidence of Smart's supposed failures. We all know that the All-Rookie teams are garbage, shown clearly by previous years' teams. If Jordan Clarkson winds up having a better NBA career than Marcus Smart, I will (like Top Gear's Jeremy Clarkson) eat an omelette filled with my own hair.

+100000 larbird you are better than this. You have posted this like 15 times. A few years ago landry field was all team first rookie over a bunch of future stars. There are examples of this just about every year. It's just embarassing to keep bringing this up like this. The dead horse called, it said please stop beating me

heh.  I'll re-write the post in a way that will not cause you to overlook my point:

Part of that is expectations of players taken 1-6 vs guys taken 12-25.    If a guy picked #17 is putting up underwhelming numbers, it is what it is.   If a guy taken 1-6 is putting up underwhelming numbers... sometimes you need to give them benefit of the doubt.  Some players are drafted based on potential.  It's why Marcus Smart (former #6 pick) is easily the best asset on our roster despite a pretty ho-hum rookie campaign that had him average a lowly 7.8 points, 3.1 assits, 3.3 rebounds, 1.5 steals with ghastly 37%/36%/65% shooting (202nd best player in the league in terms of pure statistical efficiency).  You gotta hope that Smart will develop into something.

Anthony Bennett in his second season just averaged 5.2 pts, 3.8 Rebs, .5 steals, .8 assists and .5 blks, shooting 42%, 30% and 64%.

Yet a Celtics fan on a Celtics board writes a long and decently researched post on why we should trade the #16 for him while repeatedly dismissing Marcus Smart with a shallow and poorly thought through contention.

Mike

[LilRip]

People keep citing all these stats, pointing out weaknesses, and so on and so forth. Listen, if Bennett was crushing all those stats you guys mentioned, if he was a positive force on both ends of the floor, if he regularly made his team better, if he's a proven commodity and performing like a bonafide top overall pick and not just 'potential'-based, he wouldn't be available for a #16. The reason this thread is a discussion with people on both sides of the fence is because 1) it sounds plausible and 2) the cost is not too steep.

I mean, who in their right mind would trade Kevin Durant or Anthony Davis for a #16?

In the past 10 years, the only notable #16 pick is Nikola Vucevic. 2nd place is Nick Young. Other than that, you have a bunch of guys who don't really see minutes in this league. I don't think it's unreasonable to think Bennett is potentially worth that pick.

I mean, would you trade #16 for Nick Young?

[Celtics4ever]

I think the Smart comparison is way off.   Smart works hard, Bennett struggles with his weight meaning he does not and is not disciplined.   It is one thing for a person off the street to be chubby and not disciplined, it is another for a pro athlete.  It shows disrespect for your team mates,  your job and we have a guy with talent with the same issues.  How can they expect to dominate others when they cannot dominate themselves and control their willpower.

Smart does not have any issues of that ilk that we know of...

[gpap]

No.

Would rather take my chances on Bobby Portis at 16. I like what I've read about him.

If Bennett hasn't materialized into anything in his 1st two seasons, why should we trade our draft pick for him?

[Fred Roberts]

I like the question and like the intent behind this post.

However, I think Bennett's stock is a bit lower than that of the #16 pick.

If Austin Rivers could only fetch a 2nd rounder, Bennett should fetch nothing more than a late 1st (25+) or low 2nd rounder.

He shouldn't have been the top pick . . . . maybe top 8, and that was a year where the talent was a bit shaky.

I'd take a flier for sure, don't get me wrong. Just thinking maybe the Clippers pick is more appropriate value.

[spikelovetheCelts]

I like the question and like the intent behind this post.

However, I think Bennett's stock is a bit lower than that of the #16 pick.

If Austin Rivers could only fetch a 2nd rounder, Bennett should fetch nothing more than a late 1st (25+) or low 2nd rounder.

He shouldn't have been the top pick . . . . maybe top 8, and that was a year where the talent was a bit shaky.

I'd take a flier for sure, don't get me wrong. Just thinking maybe the Clippers pick is more appropriate value.

Totally Agree Clippers Pick is his value.  He should have not been the # 1 pick.